Couple removed from Hal Noordam Med Cruise

[hinkley]

.Did anyone see this on Tuesday TV news.? It seems the husband developed a chest infection & had a bad reaction to the meds that the ships Dr prescribed, the nurse got it stablelised but the Captain decided that they should leave the ship!! resulting in them being taken off late at night & put into a rubber boat.without seating, it took them an hour to reach a small village in Italy the same village that ships tour guides had earlier in the day told passengers it was unsafe to visit.On arriving home a Lawyer told them the Captain has the right to remove passengers for any reason he sees fit .

[Copper10-8]

.Did anyone see this on Tuesday TV news.? It seems the husband developed a chest infection & had a bad reaction to the meds that the ships Dr prescribed, the nurse got it stablelised but the Captain decided that they should leave the ship!! resulting in them being taken off late at night & put into a rubber boat.without seating, it took them an hour to reach a small village in Italy the same village that ships tour guides had earlier in the day told passengers it was unsafe to visit.On arriving home a Lawyer told them the Captain has the right to remove passengers for any reason he sees fit .

We discussed that particular 'incident' here before - See if I can find it

[Copper10-8]

The original review:

http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=49053

[margaritawoman]

I hope there is more to the story. If this is true I would not want to ever sail with HAL over seas, maybe in the Caribbean or Alaska where you could find help easier. If this is really how these people were treated it is horrible!!!

[mmemichele]

What did the couple do once back home ?
Can a cruise company get rid of you just as these people described?
WOW that is scary
What if the man had died on the way what responsibility would have fallen on HAL
I find this story incredible and worrisome!!!!

[usha]

YIKES!!!!:eek: I suppose they'll be writing HAL a strongly-worded letter!

[Boytjie]

.Did anyone see this on Tuesday TV news.?

Where is this TV station that runs a news story about something that happened six months ago? :eek:

[hinkley]

Where is this TV station that runs a news story about something that happened six months ago? :eek:

Los Angeles CA !!! I guess they were short on news that day!!! They were interviewing the couple on there & they said that a lawyer told them that the captain is in complete charge& whatever he says is law.

[hinkley]

The original review:

http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=49053

Thank you for forweding that,I missed it previously.

[Boytjie]

Los Angeles CA !!! I guess they were short on news that day!!! They were interviewing the couple on there & they said that a lawyer told them that the captain is in complete charge& whatever he says is law.

Which station? :confused: I know a few people in TV over there. :)

[Susie51]

What is the possibility of a malpractice suit? I hope the couple had travel insurance. That won't cover the suffering they endured, however.

[mamaofami]

What is the possibility of a malpractice suit? I hope the couple had travel insurance. That won't cover the suffering they endured, however.

I am someone who loves Holland America, but this story is amazing.
What good would a malpractice suit do now? Could it possibly cover their suffering? Imagine being cast off the Noordam(my favorite ship) into the water at night and taken by non English speaking people to a hospital in a remote and unsafe area. It's beyond anything I can imagine. Shame on the doctor, the captain of the Noordam, and Holland America. I know there is more than one side to every story, but if indeed this man was OK, the doctor made an error, and just threw his error into the sea..

[mrskmirolla]

It was broadcast on Tuesday night on the 5 pm news on channel 2 (CBS) in Los Angeles.

Kathy

[Hlitner]

This is one of those incidents where nothing the ship does would please the passenger. The on-board health facilities on the Noordam are limited as is the staff. There are very good hospitals in Italy where they can treat any ailment. You can be sure the Captain was following the best medical advice of his shipboard physician. Failure of the Captain to follow medical advice would be idiotic. The Captain arranged to get these folks ashore as quickly as possible at the nearest port (we have seen similar situations on several other cruises). If the passenger had been kept on the ship and died of complications from the drugs or infection, I suspect the wife would have been even more upset!

Hank

[7toEleven]

There certainly is more to this story, I hope to get to hear it all, so far quite amazing. But, we need more information.

[cruisingagentone]

I don't want to start trouble but...doesn't this seem a little far fetched.
Like I said if you all believe it then I guess I'm just too cynical.
I missed the event the first time it went around but has HAL made any comment?

[mamaofami]

Maybe it was on the news now because a law suit is in the works.
The doctor on any Holland American ship is an independent contractor and has to have his own insurance. He can be sued.I know there are people who say maritime laws are different, but I'm sure he had to have his own malpractice insurance to be on the ship.

[world~citizen]

This is one of those incidents where nothing the ship does would please the passenger. The on-board health facilities on the Noordam are limited as is the staff. There are very good hospitals in Italy where they can treat any ailment. You can be sure the Captain was following the best medical advice of his shipboard physician. Failure of the Captain to follow medical advice would be idiotic. The Captain arranged to get these folks ashore as quickly as possible at the nearest port (we have seen similar situations on several other cruises). If the passenger had been kept on the ship and died of complications from the drugs or infection, I suspect the wife would have been even more upset!

Hank

With all due respect, in a situation as complicated as this, and as we have only one version of the story, we can be SURE of nothing.

This will have to play out between the PAX, HAL and everyone's lawyers if the case is litigated.

What a horrible story.

[noblepa]

I agree that this sounds a little far-fetched, but who knows?

As for the captain's word being law, that is true. Once the captain makes a decision, you can not refuse to obey. However, that general rule does not absolve the captain or the cruise line of any possible consequences. If the facts of the story are true, there could well be grounds for a lawsuit.

As far as suing the on-board doctor, good luck! He/she is almost certainly not a US citizen or resident and is just as certainly not licensed in the US.

It would certainly be interested to hear HAL's side of the story, but I'm sure we never will. Even if it comes out in court, that won't happen for several years. More likely, a settlement will be reached, in which both parties agree to remain silent.

But then, what do I know?

Paul

[juarez]

this is a very disturbing story.i hope there is follow up by cc.any responce from hal?.if true it certainly would affect my future plans with hal.

[mamaofami]

A great many of the ship's doctors are U.S. residents.

[world~citizen]

I agree that this sounds a little far-fetched, but who knows?

As for the captain's word being law, that is true. Once the captain makes a decision, you can not refuse to obey. However, that general rule does not absolve the captain or the cruise line of any possible consequences. If the facts of the story are true, there could well be grounds for a lawsuit.

As far as suing the on-board doctor, good luck! He/she is almost certainly not a US citizen or resident and is just as certainly not licensed in the US.

It would certainly be interested to hear HAL's side of the story, but I'm sure we never will. Even if it comes out in court, that won't happen for several years. More likely, a settlement will be reached, in which both parties agree to remain silent.

But then, what do I know?

Paul

I am no lawyer.

From what I understand the problem is that as the vessel is at sea, there is a question of jurisdiction. What standards have to be kept? Where do you sue if you think it appropriate. There have been threads on this.

[jtl513]

If anyone is interested in what was said the last time this incident was discussed, CLICK HERE (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=878257) for the original thread of 110 posts. :)

[Copper10-8]

Los Angeles CA !!! I guess they were short on news that day!!! They were interviewing the couple on there & they said that a lawyer told them that the captain is in complete charge& whatever he says is law.

I believe the male half of this couple is an attorney which might have a little bit to do with this story, which occurred six months ago, being shown in prime time now

[Cruising-along]

I believe the male half of this couple is an attorney which might have a little bit to do with this story, which occurred six months ago, being shown in prime time now

I'm having an A-HA moment.

[Copper10-8]

If anyone is interested in what was said the last time this incident was discussed, CLICK HERE (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=878257) for the original thread of 110 posts. :)


That's the one I've been trying to find! You are obviously much better at that than I am, Sir

[Copper10-8]

I'm having an A-HA moment.
;):):cool:;)

[cmdchiefthom]

It seems to me as I recall the original post, it was the OP's first post, and there was also a very negative review of the entire cruise posted on the reviews thread.:rolleyes:

[world~citizen]

I'm having an A-HA moment.

Not sure what that means.

Sometimes I think a lot of contributors to this board must live in a state of perpetual exhaustion from all the conclusions they jump to. :rolleyes:

Without the whole story, we really are not qualified to judge.

Smooth sailing to you...

[jtl513]

You are obviously much better at that than I am, SirActually you did the hard part of the job - I just searched on EntryID=49053 in your post!! :D

[Copper10-8]

Actually you did the hard part of the job - I just searched on EntryID=49053 in your post!! :D

Now I feel a lot better:o

[hammybee]

Here is a link to the recorded broadcast.

http://www.truveo.com/search.php?query=couple+kicked+off+cruise+ship+&uqs=

[MadManOfBethesda]

Here is a link to the recorded broadcast.

http://www.truveo.com/search.php?query=couple+kicked+off+cruise+ship+&uqs=


Thanks for finding and posting that link, Hammybee. Also, thank you for intruducing me to Truveo. That's a great video search engine and much better that trying to search for something on Youtube.

[jtl513]

The part of this story that seems strangest to me is how they were put off the ship an hour from shore! Couldn't the Noordam have covered the distance to land a lot faster than the small boat used? In fact, why didn't they go back to the port that they had left just an before?

When we were on the Noordam in 6/06 and a passenger needed by be medivac'd the captain sped up and arrived at Monaco about 5 hours ahead of schedule, and the passenger was transferred to shore by ship's tender.

[hammybee]

I believe the male half of this couple is an attorney which might have a little bit to do with this story, which occurred six months ago, being shown in prime time now

They are both attorneys with a speciality in civil litigation. They are very well connected. She has held many public offices, within NPB.

[hammybee]

I don't want to start trouble but...doesn't this seem a little far fetched.
Like I said if you all believe it then I guess I'm just too cynical.
I missed the event the first time it went around but has HAL made any comment?

How exactly does one get " put off" a ship and into a situation like this?

The only way I am hopping off a cruise ship, in the middle of a sea, onto a small craft, in the evening, an hour or so from land, is if the ship is sinking. No doubt there is more to this story.

It's usually prudent for defendents not to comment on pending litigation.

[FLACRUISER99]

How exactly does one get " put off" a ship and into a situation like this?

The only way I am hopping off a cruise ship, in the middle of a sea, onto a small craft, in the evening, an hour or so from land, is if the ship is sinking. No doubt there is more to this story.

It's usually prudent for defendents not to comment on pending litigation.
If I am on a ship and suffer a serious medical problem that cannot be handled on the ship I sure hope they would get me to a Land hospital that could!!

[mamaofami]

Holland America can't comment on this because of the possible litagation.

It doesn't matter to me if they are lawyers or not. The fact that they were evacuated in this manner, when as John stated the ship could have gotten them to shore very quickly, is ridiculus. These people deserved better and it just makes me hungry for more information that could possibly justify what HAL did.

Hammy, having never been in a position of being asked to leave a ship, I'm not sure how I would have reacted when being forced off.I might have been very intimidated.

[hammybee]

Hammy, having never been in a position of being asked to leave a ship, I'm not sure how I would have reacted when being forced off.
Maybe they were left with no choice.


They claim they were "ordered to pack and get off".

They claim "they pushed us off".

I was not there. I don't know what happened.

I would have locked myself in my cabin, under the circumstances being relayed, here. There would be no way, under the circumstances described here, that I would have left my cabin, let alone the ship.

[hinkley]

Which station? :confused: I know a few people in TV over there. :)

Channel 2

[Sillyjilly]

which station? :confused: I know a few people in tv over there. :)

cbs

[Donray]

I have been on two cruises where a person was not allowed to continue the cruise because of medical reasons. Both were a because of a minor heat attack that the person thought they were OK.

A cruise line does not want you to die on the ship.

Keep in mind that anyone would have a hard time proving that you would be better off on the ship for medical emergency than on land in a hospital. This is why no law suit will every happen.

This is why if you might have a medical problem you need insurance and better have sufficient credit cards to get you home since insurance pays you back and not the cost as incurred.

I would hate to be one of the people that don't have a high limit credit card and have it happen.

I think you will find that it happens more often then you would think.

[wander]

I recommend that we ALWAYS reserve judgement on a situation IF we ONLY KNOW ONE SIDE! Having worked as an investigator of workplace complaints through-out the West Coast I know only too well how dangerous it is to believe a person when you only hear their side. Maybe they are telling you 100% the truth, BUT I NEVER found that to be true. In this case we have only heard one side. Maybe all of it is true or maybe parts of it are true, or maybe it is all misrepresented, we simply do not know and probably never will.

[Copper10-8]

They are both attorneys with a speciality in civil litigation. They are very well connected. She has held many public offices, within NPB.

Well now, what's a mother to do?

[hulamoon]

Even if this story turns out to have another side, I will think a long time before I go to a ships doctor.

[hulamoon]

I watched the tape Hammybee provided, thank you. Is there any reason to think HAL's two responses mentioned are not accurate? It implied there was an initial response about it not being "their best".

Then the email the reporter recieved said the transport was made by the Italian Coast Guard.

[world~citizen]

How exactly does one get " put off" a ship and into a situation like this?

The only way I am hopping off a cruise ship, in the middle of a sea, onto a small craft, in the evening, an hour or so from land, is if the ship is sinking. No doubt there is more to this story.

It's usually prudent for defendents not to comment on pending litigation.

Actually, this incident raises a lot of questions and every one of them interesting. They strike at the heart of the nature of medical care on board ships at sea (not just HAL), the power of the ships Master and the nature of the responsibility of the shipping line for the decisions made by their commanding officers.

After viewing the clip, it seems to me neither of these passengers qualify (at first blush) as nut-bars. Allegations made in an earlier thread by posters on this board that the whole story must be a fabrication may be dismissed. I will not stand up to be counted with those who imply that details must have been omitted sufficient to distort the general accuracy of the event. We can't know that with the evidence at hand.

These disembarked passengers are articulate and smart. They represent the worst nightmare for a cruise company -any company- where malfeasance allegedly occurs.

In short, what would you do, or any of us do if what allegedly happened to this couple actually happened to any one of us? I would like to think that we would be articulate and capable enough to cause some sort of action, not necessarily a legal one, to ensure that this would not happen again to other cruise passengers on any cruise ship should similar circumstances arise.

These pax we understand to be lawyers - they are articulate and with no small resources to respond to the situation they allegedly found themselves in as is their right to do.

Its a small enough story but IF true has huge ramifications for everyone that sails a passenger ship.

They say "buyer beware". For that you need knowledge. This is part of the learning process.

It may be in the end, to borrow from another thread, that these cruisers and cruisers like them will turn out to be the real HAL Champions of this board.

Your comments are always thoughtful and thanks for the link to the clip.

Smooth sailing to you...

[Copper10-8]

The problem with only having one-sided information:

http://wb6.itrademarket.com/pdimage/22/321622_w525.jpg

Avon rubber boat

http://media.shipspotting.com/uploads/thumbs/rw/730854_800/Ship+Photo+CP+801.jpg (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/"http://media.shipspotting.com/uploads/photos/rw/730854/Ship+Photo+CP+801.jpg")

Italian Coast Guard RHIB based at Reggio Calabria

[world~citizen]

The problem with only having one-sided information:

00080]Avon rubber boat[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[
Italian Coast Guard RHIB based at Reggio Calabria


Not sure where you are going with this. I assume you have information that the aforementioned couple was loaded onto CP 801?

Probably not.

If it was, I would call it an avon boat too as a non-maritime oriented pax (they don't all have oil barrels in them).

As you say (and I agree) we don't know the whole story. That doesn't imply the story is substantially incorrect.

It needs to be fleshed out.

Smooth sailing to you.

[pipedreams62]

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/clouseau.jpg

[SnorkelMoose]

Pipedreams wins the thread :D

[world~citizen]

Pipedreams wins the thread :D

He wins every thread. :eek:

[welwyngirl]

I was recently on a HAL cruise where a passenger was taken ill with a suspected heart attack. We spoke with him over breakfast one morning and he said he received excellent care (in Haifa) but he and his wife were both told to pack their bags in case he needed extended treatment. They had to sign a release form to leave the ship. It transpired the Israeli medics thought it best for him to return to the US but didn't think the case was urgent. Since the next plane home was in 4 days and there was only 3 days remaining on the cruise they decided they would like to rejoin the ship rather than wait in a hotel room in Haifa. They had great difficulty in being allowed back on the ship as the ship's doctor thought he would not be in a position to treat him if he was taken ill. They then had to sign every more release forms waiving any rights.

I can understand why the ship wouldn't want to take responsibility of sick passengers when facilities to treat them onboard are inadequate. But I would hope they treat those involved with compassion and courtesy.

On another note, we were on a cruise from Goa two years ago. It was a new line and new cruise (we thought we would be on the 4th or 5th cruise so all teething problems would be ironed out, however we were actually the first)! We were extremely disappointed with the ship, the cabin and the cruise in general. Most importantly, there was no air conditioning in the cabins (the temperature was in high 30s/low 40s centigrade)! The waiters were bringing our found with perspiration dripping from their faces into the meals and everything was shabby and not as advertised. When we dared to complain to the cruise director and asked her to fax a letter of complaint to our HO on our behalf she came back to say she wanted us to leave the ship! We asked her if she would arrange transport/accommodation but she refused and said she would 'leave us at the port gate'. We were absolute dumbstruck. We were travelling with a relative who had recently been bereaved and were desperate for her not to become upset by all of this. We eventually agreed we would stay on to see if things improved. They actually got worse. We were not the only people complaining but somewhere we were 'scapegoated'. We eventually asked to be let off in Sri Lanka and found our own accommodation and transportation. When we arrived home we wrote to the company and received full compensation and expenses (including our airfares to and fro)! Needless to say the company is no longer in existence! But it is a truly dreadful feeling to be placed in that situation. My husband and I could cope with it but we were so anxious for our sister in law who was on her first cruise since losing her husband. Dreadful!!

[welwyngirl]

Forgot to add the postscript of this!

We were on the Balmoral a few weeks ago and the band was also on this ill-fated cruise! They were joking about it and saying how truly awful it was. They told us that the cruise director actually put off a disabled passenger for complaining! They said they had this terrible image of this poor man alone on the quayside in a wheelchair!!

[world~citizen]

I can understand why the ship wouldn't want to take responsibility of sick passengers when facilities to treat them onboard are inadequate. But I would hope they treat those involved with compassion and courtesy.



Perhaps between the Captain protecting the cruise line and the Doctor protecting himself, the passenger/patient gets caught in the middle.

I would have the same hope that you do.

[hammybee]

Actually, this incident raises a lot of questions and every one of them interesting. They strike at the heart of the nature of medical care on board ships at sea (not just HAL), the power of the ships Master and the nature of the responsibility of the shipping line for the decisions made by their commanding officers.

In the U.S. there are 3-4 levels of trauma hospital care, depending on where. Level 1 is the highest and have surgeons and other medical resources, on call at all times. They are usually, but not always, located in densly populated metropolitan areas/states.

Lower levels of trauma centers provide initial care and trauma stabilization and arrange for transfer of the victim to a higher level of trauma care, as appropriate.

There are entire huge states in the U.S. that are hours away, by air, from the closest level 1 trauma center.

I have no idea how any cruise ship's medical facilities compare to state side trauma levels. It seems reasonable to assume that they are not nor could they be expected to be equivelent to a higher level state side trauma center, given many states do not have adequate funding for such care.

In this particular situation, Barry sought onboard medical relief for sniffles and says he recieved an inhaler and subsequently says he had an allergic reaction. The original review claims the MD panicked because the wrong medication had been dosed. That may be true or it may be speculation on the part of this passenger.

Maybe this passenger did not disclose other medical problems and medications. Maybe he did and it was overlooked. Or maybe the inhaler was not appropriate for sniffles. Or maybe this passenger had a spontaeous allergic reaction. And maybe the passengers asked for a medical evacuation. Lots of unknowns here.

Some of the language used in the CC review and media interview seems dramatic. The transport was not as " elegant" as the lifeboat.....That the cruise ship warned all passengers to be aware of pick pockets in that port.... (a common warning given to all passengers, in all ports , including those in the U.S.)....That they were driven through dirty areas that had holes in windows and "laundry hanging on lines"....

That there was no one in port to advocate on their behalf must have been extremely frightening. No doubt these two found themselves a long way from Kansas ( or Newport Beach, for that matter) and were afraid, absolutely understandable.

The part that makes me uneasy is the "being forced off the ship". He had the sniffles. He recieved medication. He had an allergic reaction. He was administered a substance that reversed the reaction.

And then the captain heading into an @ sea day, between ports, decides to call the local coast guard, stops the ship and forces them off at 7:00 P.M. when most everyone is out and about and potentially inclined to observe the evacuation, as many are prone to do. Again....how exactly does one get forced off a ship, at sea, while pleading to remain onboard?

That the incremental expenses associated with this ordeal were not covered by their trip insurance is another can of worms.

Needless to say, there is more to this story than we will probably ever know. Regardless, it serves to make us aware that when we are on a cruise ship, any ship, UCLA Medical Center is not just around the bend.

[world~citizen]

...Needless to say, there is more to this story than we will probably ever know. Regardless, it serves to make us aware that when we are on a cruise ship, any ship, UCLA Medical Center is not just around the bend.

Sad but true.

Smooth sailing...

[Copper10-8]

Not sure where you are going with this. I assume you have information that the aforementioned couple was loaded onto CP 801?

Probably not.

If it was, I would call it an avon boat too as a non-maritime oriented pax (they don't all have oil barrels in them).

As you say (and I agree) we don't know the whole story. That doesn't imply the story is substantially incorrect.

It needs to be fleshed out.

Smooth sailing to you.

Where I'm going with this Mr. Citizen is that all we, as bystanders, know of this incident is what the two involved passengers are reporting, first via a review on Cruise Critic and now via the local news media, five months after it occured. If it hasn't been done so already, there will surely (and I'm not calling you Shirley) be a civil law suit filed over this incident. The fact that both Barry and Deb A are attorneys only increases those odds. Like any big entity facing prospective litigation, HAL is not going to comment on this, probably on the advise of their corporate attorneys, which in return will make them (HAL) look bad because, again, there are more sides to a story. We will not hear the HAL (or Italian Coast Guard, since they, according to the one-liner from HAL via K-Cal News, were the means of transportation from ship to shore that night) until the parties have their day in court.

Based on the descriptives provided by Barry and Deb A, of course you have to feel for them as far as their experiences based on a runny nose and a reaction to an inhaler. Are some details of this incident exaggerated or blown just a tad out of proportion by them? Be the judge. Pointing out 'the bowels of the ship' on a post card on the News, the description of the 'Avon rubber boat', the climbing of the 25 foot sea wall with their luggage, the ride through the Italian version of South Central L.A. I'm still trying to figure out who exactly forced them to go to that clinic, once ashore if there was nothing wrong with Barry by that time?

The bottom line on this is that Noordam's ship doctor apparently reached a conclusion that he could not provide further medical care for Barry if his condition were to worsen. He apparently made the recommendation to Noordam's captain that Barry needed follow up care at the closest land-based medical facility. Anyone familiar enough with HAL knows that medical evacs happen all the time, some here might have witnessed them. Next up was the captain as to where to put Barry ashore based on that recommendation. His options? Look at the map. He could have turned around and head back to Messina. Could he have still made Kusadasi two days later? Don't know. We don't know why the decision was made to make that medevac happen off the coast of Calabria. The next day was a sea day and Noordam would be somewhere in the Med between Italy, and Greece, farther away from land.

Maybe the positive thing that will come out of this all is that it will more than likely force HAL (and other lines) to take a hard look at their medical procedures because, as has been pointed out here, the ship's doctor has a tremendous amount of power in incidents like this and a lot of folks higher up the food chain, including the ship's captain, will rely on that.



[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Kaart_Italie_Messina.png

[world~citizen]

...Maybe the positive thing that will come out of this all is that it will more than likely force HAL (and other lines) to take a hard look at their medical procedures [/I]because, as has been pointed out here, the ship's doctor has a tremendous amount of power in incidents like this and a lot of folks higher up the food chain, including the ship's captain, will rely on that.]

Well, first, thanks for not calling me Shirley. :eek:

I suspect HAL and other lines are well aware of the medical procedures and the powers of the Chief Medical Officer and Master on board their ships. Its the PAX that need to take note here.

If they do, that may be the positive thing to come out of this, as suggested by Hammy.

Smooth sailing to you...

[Copper10-8]

Well, first, thanks for not calling me Shirley. :eek:

I suspect HAL and other lines are well aware of the medical procedures and the powers of the Chief Medical Officer and Master on board their ships. Its the PAX that need to take note here.

If they do, that may be the positive thing to come out of this, as suggested by Hammy.

Smooth sailing to you...

YW;)

I also suspect they are but revisiting that is never a bad thing

Agreed

Hammy is the top pineapple!

[KCcruisin07]

http://www.truveo.com/Couple-Kicked-Off-Cruise-Ship-After-One-Gets-Sick/id/4287801008

The couple was on a Holland America cruise when the husband went to the ship doctor with a cold. He had a reaction to the treatment, but the nurse administered an antidote which worked. The captain made a decision to remove the couple from the ship on a rubber raft after dark.

Please view this video for further information. This was aired on KCAL TV.

[serendipity1499]

http://www.truveo.com/Couple-Kicked-Off-Cruise-Ship-After-One-Gets-Sick/id/4287801008

The couple was on a Holland America cruise when the husband went to the ship doctor with a cold. He had a reaction to the treatment, but the nurse administered an antidote which worked. The captain made a decision to remove the couple from the ship on a rubber raft after dark.

Please view this video for further information. This was aired on KCAL TV.


There is another thread on page 2 about this..You might want to delete this post if there is still time or ask the moderator to add your post to that thread..

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=945964

Betty

[KCcruisin07]

Thanks, I did not know that. I have emailed CC and asked to have the thread removed or combined with the other one that is on page 2.

[OCruisers]

Even if this story turns out to have another side, I will think a long time before I go to a ships doctor.

:rolleyes: Hate to say it ... but ... it will certainly also make us think long and hard before going to a doctor on a ship ....

:eek: It's one thing (not great) to be left or dropped off in a port if need be ... BUT ... to be sent off in a Rubber Raft in the middle of the night is horrid. :mad:

[hulamoon]

This week has been full of suprises on CC. :eek:

I hate to say it but each time I read my insurance policy I imagine that if I get sick on a ship a helicopter magically comes to pick me up and flies me to a hospital.

Even though I don't know what happened I wonder if their insurance limited their options.

[world~citizen]

:rolleyes: Hate to say it ... but ... it will certainly also make us think long and hard before going to a doctor on a ship ....

:eek: It's one thing (not great) to be left or dropped off in a port if need be ... BUT ... to be sent off in a Rubber Raft in the middle of the night is horrid. :mad:

Shrewd observation.

If people get the idea that once they go to a ships doctor their power to "choose" is absolutely superseded by the medical officer and/or the master, they may avoid going to the doctor at all, and what a mess that would be. :eek:

Lets hope it never comes to that.

Smooth sailing...

[world~citizen]

This week has been full of suprises on CC. :eek:

I hate to say it but each time I read my insurance policy I imagine that if I get sick on a ship a helicopter magically comes to pick me up and flies me to a hospital.

Even though I don't know what happened I wonder if their insurance limited their options.

I know what you mean. It would be interesting to know why insurance didn't help out here.

Smooth sailing to you...

[geocruiser]

Hi,

I just want to tell you of my experience on HAL's Noordan this pass Jan. One of the people that we were traveling with became very ill. (he was a friend of a friend). This man had heart failure in the middle of the night. The Dr on Noordam and staff were great. They treated him so well. I feel that they save his life. Once we docked in Dommica he was transported to the hospital. I went with the sick man and his friend to the hospital. Hal's port agent met us there. He was great and such a help. What a kind man. We also called the local priest (our other friend not the one who was sick, is a priest) We thought we could use the extra help from him. He came with in 10 minutes. This priest was a blessing. The hospital was not like back home. BUT they put him intensive care. He did recover and his family came to get him. I can't begin to tell you how much help HAL doctor and nursers and the front desk were. One of the nurses event went to the hospital to check on the man before the ship left port. At the hospital all the staff were very nice and gave him good care from what I could see.

Maria

[world~citizen]

Hi,

I just want to tell you of my experience on HAL's Noordan this pass Jan. One of the people that we were traveling with became very ill. (he was a friend of a friend). This man had heart failure in the middle of the night. The Dr on Noordam and staff were great. They treated him so well. I feel that they save his life. Once we docked in Dommica he was transported to the hospital. I went with the sick man and his friend to the hospital. Hal's port agent met us there. He was great and such a help. What a kind man. We also called the local priest (our other friend not the one who was sick, is a priest) We thought we could use the extra help from him. He came with in 10 minutes. This priest was a blessing. The hospital was not like back home. BUT they put him intensive care. He did recover and his family came to get him. I can't begin to tell you how much help HAL doctor and nursers and the front desk were. One of the nurses event went to the hospital to check on the man before the ship left port. At the hospital all the staff were very nice and gave him good care from what I could see.

Maria

I suppose that is how we all hope every medical emergency would be handled.

Wonderful that things worked out.

Smooth sailing to you...

[MadManOfBethesda]

It would be interesting to know why insurance didn't help out here.

Well, this would be purely a guess, but since the passenger stated that he wasn't ill but was put off the ship because the doctor and the captain were concerned that he "might" develop medical problems, I would surmise that the insurance would not kick in because he wasn't ill and he didn't require medical treatment in Italy.

I suppose that just being asked (or ordered) to leave the ship is not a "covered event."

Again, this is just a guess based on the passenger's description of what transpired.

[jtl513]

I just want to tell you of my experience on HAL's Noordan this pass Jan. ... Same ship, four months later, and such a drastic difference it the handling of the event! (Yes, it could be a different Captain, and/or doctor.) It makes me wonder if something was said by the CA lawyers in Sept that caused the Capt to disembark them posthaste ... like "malpractice"??

[world~citizen]

Well, this would be purely a guess, but since the passenger stated that he wasn't ill but was put off the ship because the doctor and the captain were concerned that he "might" develop medical problems, I would surmise that the insurance would not kick in because he wasn't ill and he didn't require medical treatment in Italy.

I suppose that just being asked (or ordered) to leave the ship is not a "covered event."

Again, this is just a guess based on the passenger's description of what transpired.


Sounds plausible.

So, is it possible that the way things work now, a cruise line can place you in financial distress over a non-medical emergency that you cannot insure yourself against?

Jeeze.

Smooth sailing to you...

[world~citizen]

Same ship, four months later, and such a drastic difference it the handling of the event! (Yes, it could be a different Captain, and/or doctor.) It makes me wonder if something was said by the CA lawyers in Sept that caused the Capt to disembark them posthaste!

Not knowing the details, we cannot rule anything out.

All we can do is speculate. That is a possibility.

I suppose as has been said earlier, we will probably never know the whole truth of the matter, and more is the pity.

Smooth sailing...

[JerseyJaguar]

Same ship, four months later, and such a drastic difference it the handling of the event! (Yes, it could be a different Captain, and/or doctor.) It makes me wonder if something was said by the CA lawyers in Sept that caused the Capt to disembark them posthaste ... like "malpractice"??
Or, it could mean that the original couple has not been completely truthful about what happened to them.

[mamaofami]

We'll never really know the whole story and that's too bad.

Another possibility, is that being lawyers, one or both of them threatened or mentioned a law suit and the doctor wanted them off the ship ASAP.

[Arwen]

I watched the video and the passenger's account is truly frightening.

But like others have said, we don't know HAL's side of the story.

Perhaps this man was vocal about threatening a lawsuit shortly after the medical error occurred. Did he verbally or physically threaten staff afterwards?

Why would any cruise line make a truly ill passenger carry their own luggage and do any climbing to disembark to get onto a Coast Guard Boat and without attendant medical personnel, Italian, or otherwise?

I witnessed an at sea evacuation on our first cruise to Alaska and it was executed by the Canadian Coast Guard. Yes, they do have to disembark the passenger at the A deck level (the TV reporter made the disembarkation appear really awful!, even pointing out on a cruise ship photo where the passenger had to get off ---like he was going to drop off into the sea!).

The Amsterdam, in our case, had to slow down to allow the coast guard vessel to pull up alongside. It wasn't a very big or impressive looking watercraft either. The ill passenger was taken off by stretcher and it appeared that she was being tended to by medical personnel.

In this case 2+2 does not equal 4. Something has been left out of this story.

Of course, it is possible that whatever medical error was made caused everyone from the doctor, to the RN, to the captain to "panic" and commit an act that compromised safety of the two cruise passengers. If that is the case, the facts will come out at trial. If HAL is guilty they will be quietly and quickly settle out of court.

[hammybee]

Perhaps this man was vocal about threatening a lawsuit shortly after the medical error occurred. Did he verbally or physically threaten staff afterwards?

Of course, it is possible that whatever medical error was made caused everyone from the doctor, to the RN, to the captain to "panic" and commit an act that compromised safety of the two cruise passengers.

Why presume a medical error? People can live their whole lives not being aware they have an allergy to something until they are exposed to it.

[jtl513]

In this case 2+2 does not equal 4. Something has been left out of this story.You've got that right! I don't believe for a second that the couple is telling the whole truth.
If that is the case, the facts will come out at trial. If HAL is guilty they will be quietly and quickly settle out of court.Unfortunately, it will probably never go to trial either way. It is usually better for a corporation to keep such disputes out of the news by settling out of court, even when they are entirely correct in their actions.

[Copper10-8]

...... ... to be sent off in a Rubber Raft in the middle of the night is horrid. :mad:

"It’s about 5:30 in the evening, you’re napping on the NOORDAM ( a 5-star cruise ship of Holland America) after a long walking tour through Toaramina, a hill top town in Southern Italy. An hour later you are being thrown off the ship, into the Mediterranean."

The 'middle of the night' was actually around 6:30 PM during the month of September in the eastern Med. The 'rubber raft', according to the only statement by HAL to News Channel KCAL-9, was a RHIB (a Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat) a water craft used by the majority of the world's navies as a rescue, transport or Patrol boat in open waters.

[mamaofami]

Unfortunately, it will probably never go to trial either way. It is usually better for a corporation to keep such disputes out of the news by settling out of court, even when they are entirely correct in their actions.

That's probably exactly the way it will be settled and then all parties will sign a confidentiality agreement and that will be that. The whole story will be burried at sea.

[hammybee]

"It’s about 5:30 in the evening, you’re napping on the NOORDAM ( a 5-star cruise ship of Holland America) after a long walking tour through Toaramina, a hill top town in Southern Italy. An hour later you are being thrown off the ship, into the Mediterranean."

The 'middle of the night' was actually around 6:30 PM during the month of September in the eastern Med. The 'rubber raft', according to the only statement by HAL to News Channel KCAL-9, was a RHIB (a Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat) a water craft used by the majority of the world's navies as a rescue, transport or Patrol boat in open waters.

But Johnnnnn,

The boat was not nearly as "elegant" as the tender/life boats, carried by the ship.

I am haunted ( well no, not really) by this tale of woe, as described by these two passengers. If you assume things went down, exactly as they portrayed, would you be yapping about being subjected to a neighborhood that had laundry hanging from clothes lines? Is this where the pain and suffering/emotional distress comes into play.

[twinkletoes4445]

Why presume a medical error? People can live their whole lives not being aware they have an allergy to something until they are exposed to it.

I found out in my late-30's that I was allergic to penicillin. I'd taken it before and had no problems at all (as a child), but when I was given penicillin as an adult to treat an infection, I had a major allergic reaction. I've also had reactions to medicines that I had never had before, so for me, I try and stick with the things that I know I have no problems with, but sometimes that's not possible and an allergic reaction can happen.

[Arwen]

Why presume a medical error? People can live their whole lives not being aware they have an allergy to something until they are exposed to it.

hammybee....you misunderstood me. http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I read a previous post that mentioned that the patient had an adverse reaction to the inhalant med? and in then in another post??? maybe (misread it) that possibly wrong drug was given (may have misread that one) Of course, an adverse reaction can occur with any med given at any time and that is no fault of the doctor, nurse, or patient....unless the medical staff failed to ask a patient about known allergies. After having worked as a nurse for a long time, I know only too well that medication errors do occur with greater frequency than most patients know about. Most of these do not end up with serious consequences, thankfully.:rolleyes:

Anyways, the video news clip stated that the passenger/patient complained about the manner in which he and his wife were "forced" or taken off the ship and implied it was abrupt, without merit, and then heartlessly plunked into something akin to a "rubber dinghy" :eek: and sent out to sea.

[Boatdrill]

This is one of those incidents where nothing the ship does would please the passenger. The on-board health facilities on the Noordam are limited as is the staff. There are very good hospitals in Italy where they can treat any ailment. You can be sure the Captain was following the best medical advice of his shipboard physician. Failure of the Captain to follow medical advice would be idiotic. The Captain arranged to get these folks ashore as quickly as possible at the nearest port (we have seen similar situations on several other cruises). If the passenger had been kept on the ship and died of complications from the drugs or infection, I suspect the wife would have been even more upset!



Exactly.

[GS99]

[snip]
As far as suing the on-board doctor, good luck! He/she is almost certainly not a US citizen or resident and is just as certainly not licensed in the US.
[snip]

The doctor will be American or Canadian and does not appear to need his or her own malpractice insurance.!

From: http://www.acep.org/EmailContent.aspx?id=24930

"Holland America Line (12 to 18 ships, worldwide itinerary) hires exclusively North American-licensed MDs and RNs who are board certified in their specialty. Preference is given to emergency medicine practitioners with three years post training. Contracts are a minimum of two weeks. Liability is covered. Independent contractor status. Advanced cardiac life support, advanced trauma life support certification or equivalent. Credentials will be verified!"

[vb,cruisers]

Twice I have had to leave ships for medical reasons. First, from my personal experience, I was ONLY put off at a place where I could get the appropriate medical attention. The hospital was alerted to my condition, and when I would be arriving. Two, there was the cruise line agent to meet and take COMPLETE care of us until we left to go home. Three, there was an occasion where the ship could not dock or anchor, because of weather, and I had to be lowered on to a transport to take us to an island for treatment. We were safely taken care of at every step, and in both cases the ship's doctors were wonderful, caring, individuals. The ship's captains also, made the right calls. I have nothing but praise for my treatment.

[twinkletoes4445]

Twice I have had to leave ships for medical reasons. First, from my personal experience, I was ONLY put off at a place where I could get the appropriate medical attention. The hospital was alerted to my condition, and when I would be arriving. Two, there was the cruise line agent to meet and take COMPLETE care of us until we left to go home. Three, there was an occasion where the ship could not dock or anchor, because of weather, and I had to be lowered on to a transport to take us to an island for treatment. We were safely taken care of at every step, and in both cases the ship's doctors were wonderful, caring, individuals. The ship's captains also, made the right calls. I have nothing but praise for my treatment.


It's good to hear from someone who has had an experience with this situation (and I am glad it all worked out for you). I just finished reading a book that was written by a captain and there was a chapter that involved a very sick passenger and how he managed to get her off the ship and get her medical attention that in the end, saved her life. Her thanks and gratitude for her life being saved...She sued the cruise line and the captain (she did not win the lawsuit). :(

That's why I have to think there's more to this story than we are hearing. I just simply do not believe a captain would dump a passenger like being reported. I hope if this is not true HAL fights it to the end. I am sick of people who think that the "lawsuit lottery" is the way to get rich. On the other hand, what this couple is saying could be true...but I really do not believe it. We have only heard one side of this story so far....

[Cruising-along]

I am haunted ( well no, not really) by this tale of woe, as described by these two passengers. If you assume things went down, exactly as they portrayed, would you be yapping about being subjected to a neighborhood that had laundry hanging from clothes lines? Is this where the pain and suffering/emotional distress comes into play.

Hammy I wondered about this too. IMO a lot of this story just doesn't make sense.

Someone posted earlier "these are two articulate and educated attorneys", as if that gives sufficient reason why this is all true. :rolleyes:

Then again, IF it is true, it was a bad experience that nobody should have to go through.

[hammybee]

hammybee....you misunderstood me. http://boards.cruisecritic.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I read a previous post that mentioned that the patient had an adverse reaction to the inhalant med? and in then in another post??? maybe (misread it) that possibly wrong drug was given (may have misread that one) Of course, an adverse reaction can occur with any med given at any time and that is no fault of the doctor, nurse, or patient....unless the medical staff failed to ask a patient about known allergies. After having worked as a nurse for a long time, I know only too well that medication errors do occur with greater frequency than most patients know about. Most of these do not end up with serious consequences, thankfully.:rolleyes:

Arwen, you are probably referring to my paraphrasing the review that was posted on CC a few months ago:


In this particular situation, Barry sought onboard medical relief for sniffles and says he recieved an inhaler and subsequently says he had an allergic reaction. The original review claims the MD panicked because the wrong medication had been dosed. That may be true or it may be speculation on the part of this passenger.

Maybe this passenger did not disclose other medical problems and medications. Maybe he did and it was overlooked. Or maybe the inhaler was not appropriate for sniffles. Or maybe this passenger had a spontaeous allergic reaction. And maybe the passengers asked for a medical evacuation. Lots of unknowns here.


This claim of an MD error did not get mentioned in the media interview. That may be strategy or it may be that part of the original allegation did not hold water. Heck, for all any of us know, they may have panicked after the adverse reaction. Understandable.

[world~citizen]

Arwen, you are probably referring to my paraphrasing the review that was posted on CC a few months ago:



This claim of an MD error did not get mentioned in the media interview. That may be strategy or it may be that part of the original allegation did not hold water. Heck, for all any of us know, they may have panicked after the adverse reaction. Understandable.

For laymen but professionals?

Not knowing the whole story does not give the benefit of the doubt to HAL or the PAX, which I fear is happening on this thread.

This is one case where I really wish we could get "the story, the whole story, and nothing but the story" if you know what I mean.

Smooth sailing ...

[hammybee]

That's why I have to think there's more to this story than we are hearing. I just simply do not believe a captain would dump a passenger like being reported. I hope if this is not true HAL fights it to the end. I am sick of people who think that the "lawsuit lottery" is the way to get rich. On the other hand, what this couple is saying could be true...but I really do not believe it. We have only heard one side of this story so far....

Many of us, including me, are probably more suspect because these two are higher profile civil litigation attorneys and know how to work it. This creates the potential for an element of reverse discrimination, here.

As Copper John pointed out, emphasis was placed on pointing out the the exit point, on the ship, which is slightly above the water line, the most appropriate place, given they were at sea.

Who knows, maybe they thought they would be airlifted or one of the lifeboats would be lowered. Maybe when they saw the rescue craft they changed their mind about an evacuation.

As with all stories like this, we'll never know what really happened.

[JerseyJaguar]

Someone posted earlier "these are two articulate and educated attorneys", as if that gives sufficient reason why this is all true. :rolleyes:
My impression is that this is the reason most of us don't believe they are telling the truth about everything.

[hammybee]

For laymen but professionals?

Not knowing the whole story does not give the benefit of the doubt to HAL or the PAX, which I fear is happening on this thread.

This is one case where I really wish we could get "the story, the whole story, and nothing but the story" if you know what I mean.

Smooth sailing ...

The parts that do not settle well with me are the discrepencies between the original review and the media interview and all their perceptions are being communicated with equal weight. There is an enormous difference between an allegation that an MD made an error prescribing medications ( original review) and being driven though areas that ( gasp) had laundy hanging from clothes lines ( media interview).

There's about a two month lag between the original review and the cruise. There is about 6 months lag between the recent interview and the cruise.
This is more than adequate time for anyone to carefully choose their words. And yet, they chose to give equal weight to something as frivolous as being exposed to laundry, hanging on a clothes line.

Maybe that plays well to some people in NPB, but come on now.... most people of the world hang their laundry out to dry.

[world~citizen]

Many of us, including me, are probably more suspect because these two are higher profile civil litigation attorneys and know how to work it. This creates the potential for an element of reverse discrimination, here.

As Copper John pointed out, emphasis was placed on pointing out the the exit point, on the ship, which is slightly above the water line, the most appropriate place, given they were at sea.

Who knows, maybe they thought they would be airlifted or one of the lifeboats would be lowered. Maybe when they saw the rescue craft they changed their mind about an evacuation.

As with all stories like this, we'll never know what really happened.

Well lawyers have rights too. They can be wronged and they can make a case for themselves. Personally I wouldn't (and I don't believe you) would discount a complaint because it was made by an officer of the court, anymore than I would accept the veracity of one because it originated from a peace officer.

This is an important allegation and it speaks to figuring out what is going to happen to you when things go wrong on a cruise ship, beyond the understanding we get from a cursory reading of cruiseship brochures.

This is real life.

Smooth sailing...

[pipedreams62]

We're here if you need us.


http://www.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Twelve_12_Angry_Men/12_angry_men_movie_image.jpg

[world~citizen]

There's about a two month lag between the original review and the cruise. There is about 6 months lag between the recent interview and the cruise.
This is more than adequate time for anyone to carefully choose their words.

...and enough time to try to resolve the issue in good faith with HAL. Maybe they ran into that CYA attitude from HAL that I think you referred to in a post on an earlier thread?

Again, we don't know all the facts. That doesn't default to HAL or the pax.

Smooth sailing...

[happyglobetrotter]

I have sailed many many times with HAL - over 800 days with them - and I have had the experience of many people having to leave the ship and have witnessed a lot of medical evacuations and I simply do not believe some of the details of the story - one hour away - what is 5 minutes - in the middle of the night, already it has been confirmed as being 6.30 PM, as far as people in Italy speaking Italian, this is not an insulting oddity but the truth !

I hope the common sense prevails ! The story as told by this couple is sheer fiction. This is my opinion.

Louise

[twinkletoes4445]

Many of us, including me, are probably more suspect because these two are higher profile civil litigation attorneys and know how to work it. This creates the potential for an element of reverse discrimination, here.

As Copper John pointed out, emphasis was placed on pointing out the the exit point, on the ship, which is slightly above the water line, the most appropriate place, given they were at sea.

Who knows, maybe they thought they would be airlifted or one of the lifeboats would be lowered. Maybe when they saw the rescue craft they changed their mind about an evacuation.

As with all stories like this, we'll never know what really happened.

Something happened that we're not being told about, IMO.

I went back and read the original review. One thing that caught my eye was this...

Barry has high blood pressure and the ship’s store did not have any over the counter cold pills he could take, so he went to the ship’s doctor for something to stop a runny nose. The doctor gave him an “inhaler” that was much too strong. He had a severe allergic reaction. The nurse gave him the anti-dote and in about 2 minutes he was fine. The entire incident played out in about 15 minutes. That’s when the nightmare began.

The ship’s doctor panicked when he realized he’d given Barry the wrong medicine. He called the bridge and apparently told them there was an emergency and asked that the ship be stopped. I know this because the Captain made a PA announcement to that effect to all the passengers. We were ordered to pack the cabin and get off the ship. Even though it was clear to at least 1 nurse as well as us that Barry was fine now, the doctor refused to call the Captain and admit he’d made a mistake.

If this guy had high blood pressure which caused issues with certain medications, don't you think he'd travel with his own meds? The reason I say this is because my hubby takes meds for high BP and we always travel with as assortment of OTC meds he can take. And with high BP, he doesn't take OTC meds unless he really has to...so if this guy had a "runny nose" I would think I'd just deal with it rather than try something new.

If this played out in 15 minutes and then a nightmare began, then something happened that we don't know about. The doc panicked? If the guy was fine, then why toss them off the ship? Were threats made? Something is not adding up.

Several ships’ officers took us down to the bowels of the ship where there was a rubber Avon-type boat about 20 feet long. A half dozen ship’s officers circled around us as the crew tried to lash this rubber boat to the ship. We could all see that the rubber boat had no medical equipment, no oxygen, no medical personnel, and no where to sit. We begged not to be cast off on this rubber boat, but Holland America had decided. They pushed us off, along with all of our luggage, on to this Avon with 3 Italians who spoke not a word of English.

On our last cruise, we joined the Noordam, the same ship they were on, in the same location (after being tendered from St. Lucia). It's different than the area that you normally tender off and on the ship, but it certainly wasn't what I'd consider the "bowels" of the boat. We walked inside the door and there was a set of steps we climbed. Would they have rather they be dropped to the waiting boat from the regular tender area? And it would be a big drop. I'm not following this at all.

It could be this couple faced a horrid situation and are completely justified in their actions, or it could be another "lawsuit lottery winner" waiting in the wings. We have become such a litigious bunch of people here in the USA. You can sue over anything...the problem is...it's the rest of us that pay more in the end because of the lawsuit winners (and that's sad because there are people who are justified in filing lawsuits against others). I just hope if these people are full of baloney, they are sued for slander/libel (if that's possible).

Things happen...and not everything is the result of negligence. So this is the first thing I thought of when I saw the initial report of this story. My guess is they are squawking now (the couple), because they'll probably settle out of court and not be able to talk about anything beyond that time.

[Copper10-8]

We're here if you need us.


http://www.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Twelve_12_Angry_Men/12_angry_men_movie_image.jpg

Who's the angry one missing? There's only eleven of them!

[hulamoon]

He stepped out to the rest room?

[hulamoon]

The missing angry man is in a rubber raft on the way to Italy?

[Copper10-8]

The missing angry is in a rubber raft on the way to Italy?

Rimshot

[world~citizen]

...The story as told by this couple is sheer fiction. This is my opinion.

Louise

If true, an elaborate one perpetrated by two officers of the court who know about things like disclosure, fraud perjory etc.

[serendipity1499]

I have sailed many many times with HAL - over 800 days with them - and I have had the experience of many people having to leave the ship and have witnessed a lot of medical evacuations and I simply do not believe some of the details of the story - one hour away - what is 5 minutes - in the middle of the night, already it has been confirmed as being 6.30 PM, as far as people in Italy speaking Italian, this is not an insulting oddity but the truth !

I hope the common sense prevails ! The story as told by this couple is sheer fiction. This is my opinion.

Louise

Fiction: NO Exaggeration: Yes, probably exacerbated by the Press ;)

Could it have been dark at 6:30 in Italy ?...Rubber dinghy..Probably true..

Does the Italian Coast Guard in Reggio Calabria have the same type of large boats that our Coast Guard has? I think not, as Copper posted a picture of their rubber dinghy's which is similar to some U.S. Coast Guard's rubber dinghy's... the U.S. Coast Guard uses them for lots of things such as evacs as well as search & rescue..They are seaworthy contrary to what many people believe..

If true, an elaborate one perpetrated by two officers of the court who know about things like disclosure, fraud perjory etc.

Louise, as World Citizen mentions..You should remember these are two experienced litigation attorneys, who will probably file a Law Suit, so exaggeration on some of the details is quite possible..Agree with him that the story is probably not fiction but it could be exagerated...;)Also think if it was pure fiction, they could lose their licenses as practicing attorneys in their Home state..

vbCruisers: Quote Twice I have had to leave ships for medical reasons. First, from my personal experience, I was ONLY put off at a place where I could get the appropriate medical attention. The hospital was alerted to my condition, and when I would be arriving. Two, there was the cruise line agent to meet and take COMPLETE care of us until we left to go home. Three, there was an occasion where the ship could not dock or anchor, because of weather, and I had to be lowered on to a transport to take us to an island for treatment. We were safely taken care of at every step, and in both cases the ship's doctors were wonderful, caring, individuals. The ship's captains also, made the right calls. I have nothing but praise for my treatment. unquote

You were one of the lucky ones...We witnessed several Medical evacs in remote areas of the world, while on our Amazon Cruise..There seem to be more medical evac's on the longer cruises..And in both cases the Captain had no choice...However, it isn't always possible to send a Nurse, Dr. or even a Port Agent with the patient..

Two of them on the Amazon Cruise still stand out....

One was the Mother of a Cruise Critic Poster...It was a very sad case..Her story in her own words, was eventually posted on our Roll Call, but I can no longer find it..Our roll call was for the Prinsendam, April 26 to May 21, 2006..

Her mother had fallen in their cabin & was evacuated to a Hospital in Manaus where no one spoke English, even though there was another large Hospital in Manaus, where there were English Speaking DR.s..None of the ship's personnel could accompany her as we were delayed several hours until the ambulance could get there..Our ship left three hours later than scheduled...Also don't believe the Port Agent accompanied them to the Hospital, or she would have told us in her final post..

This Gal went through so much..She even borrowed $50,000 from her own bank, as the Insurance she purchased through a TA would not OK putting her Mother on a Medivac flight..A week after they got her Mother into a Hospital back home, she passed away..

Another evacuation was at the Macapa Pilot Station in the Amazon..We often wondered how they got the patient to a Hospital, as when we googled it, there did not seem to be one nearby.. One of the Nurses did accompany the patient to the pilot station & the ship waited for her to return ... Don't know if they had a port agent at the pilot station as normally passengers do not dis-embark there..Also the closest city we could find was Belem & still can't figure out how far away it was..That also had to be scary for the patient & his wife..

Again the HAL Captain, had no choice, as we had to go another 1100 miles to get to Bridgetown..

But couldn't this also have been the case in Reggio Calabria? Why would they have a Port Agent at the pilot Station if the ship did not disembark passengers there.. They normally only have Port Agents where the Ship is disembarking PAX..

Also agree with what Hammy & Twinkletoes have pointed out in their various posts..

Probably only time will tell & wonder if we will ever get the entire story...Betty

[hulamoon]

I keep reading the specualtion that there will be litigation. But the passenger said himself he checked with his friend/lawyer who pointed out to him the Captain has the right to disembark him as he sees fit. He flipped to the page where it is written. He said he just wanted people to know. Maybe they will sue, but I would not assume it until it happens.

The lesson for me is, make sure my insurance covers unexpected disembarkation.

[obriendan]

Who's the angry one missing? There's only eleven of them!

The missing angry man is Lee J. Cobb. He was the final holdout to acquital.

[wander]

World-Citizen and a few others,
So you mean that you think defense attorneys always tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Wrong! I once asked a very successful defense attorney how he could twist facts so to cast doubt on his client's alleged actions and how he could fight so hard to save someone he knew did it. Because that is my job he said.

They aren't even allowed to divulge if they KNOW their client is guilty. Their whole job is to present a case to either prove their client is innocent OR point possible blame at others to give the jury doubt. This is their job regardless of what they know about their client. Why would they act any differently about themselves?

[serendipity1499]

It's good to hear from someone who has had an experience with this situation (and I am glad it all worked out for you). I just finished reading a book that was written by a captain and there was a chapter that involved a very sick passenger and how he managed to get her off the ship and get her medical attention that in the end, saved her life. Her thanks and gratitude for her life being saved...She sued the cruise line and the captain (she did not win the lawsuit). :(

That's why I have to think there's more to this story than we are hearing. I just simply do not believe a captain would dump a passenger like being reported. I hope if this is not true HAL fights it to the end. I am sick of people who think that the "lawsuit lottery" is the way to get rich. On the other hand, what this couple is saying could be true...but I really do not believe it. We have only heard one side of this story so far....

Twinklestoes...Would you care to share the name of the book & it's author with us..I enjoy reading books by Captains of Cruise Ships & other Seafarers....

The parts that do not settle well with me are the discrepencies between the original review and the media interview and all their perceptions are being communicated with equal weight. There is an enormous difference between an allegation that an MD made an error prescribing medications ( original review) and being driven though areas that ( gasp) had laundy hanging from clothes lines ( media interview).

There's about a two month lag between the original review and the cruise. There is about 6 months lag between the recent interview and the cruise.
This is more than adequate time for anyone to carefully choose their words. And yet, they chose to give equal weight to something as frivolous as being exposed to laundry, hanging on a clothes line.

Maybe that plays well to some people in NPB, but come on now.... most people of the world hang their laundry out to dry.

LOL...Perhaps they have not traveled extensivly..Even in the best of areas in the world the Maids hang out the wash to dry!

Re the delay, Maybe they expected that most Cruise Critic [SIZE=3]Posters would feel sorry for them & say

"Oh you poor dears, we feel so sorry for you & yes HAL was completely wrong to do that!"

Instead CC Posters had hard Questions which were not answered sufficiently for us to draw a conclusion...So rather than let it ride they decided to go Public about their "Perceived poor treatment" I agree they probably were frightened, & I would be too, but to mention about laundry hanging on lines is ludicrous..

World-Citizen and a few others,
So you mean that you think defense attorneys always tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Wrong! I once asked a very successful defense attorney how he could twist facts so to cast doubt on his client's alleged actions and how he could fight so hard to save someone he knew did it. Because that is my job he said.

They aren't even allowed to divulge if they KNOW their client is guilty. Their whole job is to present a case to either prove their client is innocent OR point possible blame at others to give the jury doubt. This is their job regardless of what they know about their client. Why would they act any differently about themselves?

We never said Defense Attorney's always tell the truth! All we did was answer the poster who said

"The story as told by this couple is sheer fiction. This is my opinion."

We both agree that they probably were put off the ship in Reggio Calabria in an Avon which is the normal Evac. boats used by Navy's throughout the world as mentioned by Copper..They probably were put to sea with Non-English speaking people & they may have had to climb up on a Quay in Reggio..We've had to climb many a Quay (Bulkhead) here in the States & in the Bahama's from our Sailboat which was considerably larger than a 20 ft. Avon as well as from our Dinghy, even in Marina's & ports..

The only thing we said was that if an Attorney fabricates a story & falsely accuses a company they are
purgering themselves..When an Attorney defends a client or himself, of course we all know that she/he must exaggerate in order to put possible blame on others & protect his client...It's their job to do so..

However if an Attorney commits perjury, by fabricating a complete story both in Court & in the Press, he/she can be No.1-Sued by the company he is fabricating the story against & No. 2-sanctioned by the court.. Haven't you ever heard about Attorney's who have perjured themselves in court & the Press & have lost their license to practice law? We have!

I believe these two Attorney's are exaggerating their "pain & suffering, but don't doubt that some of what they said happened to them, was true.

I also believe Medical mistakes often happen & some Doctors, might be worried about being sued & having this info published by their States Medical Society..Perhaps this Doctor was worried that he would be put off the ship & that's why he refused to call the Captain back & explain that he made a mistake..

JMO..:)Betty

[twinkletoes4445]

Twinklestoes...Would you care to share the name of the book & it's author with us..I enjoy reading books by Captains of Cruise Ships & other Seafarers....

The book is "The Captain's Log" by Hans Mateboer. He was the Captain on our recent Noordam cruise. Captain Mateboer has a very good sense of humor! I particularly loved the chapter devoted to how he met his wife. It's funny, yet so very sweet. We only had the opportunity to chat with Captain Mateboer for a few minutes..and those few minutes were certainly enjoyable. I only hope our paths cross again one day with Captain Mateboer.:)

I like to read at night while hubby is sawing logs. There were several times when I started laughing (loudly) and woke hubby from a sound sleep. He told me I had to quit reading Captain Mateboer's book at night because he needed his sleep! Fine.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0975948709/ref=s9_sdps_c2_s1_p14_i4?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1R8PVM7V6BAE7FPZJNS6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

[serendipity1499]

The book is "The Captain's Log" by Hans Mateboer. He was the Captain on our recent Noordam cruise. Captain Mateboer has a very good sense of humor! I particularly loved the chapter devoted to how he met his wife. It's funny, yet so very sweet. We only had the opportunity to chat with Captain Mateboer for a few minutes..and those few minutes were certainly enjoyable. I only hope our paths cross again one day with Captain Mateboer.:)

I like to read at night while hubby is sawing logs. There were several times when I started laughing (loudly) and woke hubby from a sound sleep. He told me I had to quit reading Captain Mateboer's book at night because he needed his sleep! Fine.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0975948709/ref=s9_sdps_c2_s1_p14_i4?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1R8PVM7V6BAE7FPZJNS6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

Oh I read his book a few years ago..Had forgotten about that..Think I should read it again..I laughed too at some of his funny stories..

Thanks for reminding me..:) Betty

[pammypoo]

Taken from HAL's medical site:

Our minimum requirements are as follows:
· Resident of North America, with valid passport
· Graduate of accredited school; licensed to practice in U.S. or Canada
· Board certification in emergency medicine (U.S.) or FRCPC or CCFP-EM (Canadian) preferred; or board certification in internal medicine or family practice with at least 2 years of recent (within the past 5 years) post-graduate ER experience. Will consider any nonboarded MD with comparable ER experience.
· Current ACLS or FACEP/ABEM certification. ATLS certification also required for
applicants not board-certified in Emergency Medicine.
· Ability and willingness to give IV thrombolytics to MI patients.
· Strong clinical and procedural skills, including but not limited to: intubation, surgical
airways, central line placement, suturing, conscious sedation, chest tube placement,
EKG, lab and X-ray interpretation, reduction of dislocated hips or shoulders, casting and splinting of extremity fractures

HAL physicians are very well trained, generally work fulltime at an ER in the US and just take cruise breaks. The hospital facilities are topnotch as well. I would feel comfortable seeing the passenger doctor or the crew doctor anywhere anytime.

[wander]

Serendipity 1499,

Wow, I did not mean to set you off. Sorry. Yes, I have heard of attorneys who have been disbarred, but it is usually for lying under oath or doing an illegal action such as manufacturing "evidence".

But, all of this is really a moot point as we have only heard one side of the story AND it is on the internet, NOT in court.

[Copper10-8]

The missing angry man is Lee J. Cobb. He was the final holdout to acquital.

Thanks Dan, now I can sleep again at night plus I really have to go see (rent/buy) that movie. Understand it's a real classic

[JerseyJaguar]

The only thing we said was that if an Attorney fabricates a story & falsely accuses a company they are
purgering themselves..When an Attorney defends a client or himself, of course we all know that she/he must exaggerate in order to put possible blame on others & protect his client...It's their job to do so..

However if an Attorney commits perjury, by fabricating a complete story both in Court & in the Press, he/she can be No.1-Sued by the company he is fabricating the story against & No. 2-sanctioned by the court.. Haven't you ever heard about Attorney's who have perjured themselves in court & the Press & have lost their license to practice law? We have!

I believe these two Attorney's are exaggerating their "pain & suffering, but don't doubt that some of what they said happened to them, was true.

I also believe Medical mistakes often happen & some Doctors, might be worried about being sued & having this info published by their States Medical Society..Perhaps this Doctor was worried that he would be put off the ship & that's why he refused to call the Captain back & explain that he made a mistake..

It seems to me you are mixing apples and oranges. These two people happen to be attorneys, but they are NOT in a court of law right now, they are just talking to the press about their vacation. I don't see how they could be disbarred or held in contempt for lying about their vacation, even if it is on TV. I agree HAL could sue them for saying those things, but what company would want to get into a fight with two lawyers over something that would be so complicated?

They seem to just want a pay day. HAL gives them money, they go away without having to go to court and do any of this under oath.

[world~citizen]

...They seem to just want a pay day. HAL gives them money, they go away without having to go to court and do any of this under oath.

As I have said many times, I don't know all of the facts so cannot speak in the "final" tense so to speak (as some here do).

However, if the events came down substantially as described, and it happened to me or a member of my family, I might be out there trying to sort this thing out.

Lets hope it never is me, or you.

Smooth sailing...

[Hlitner]

This is an interesting discussion, but does tend to drift. The bottom line is that the Captain has the sole legal authority to put any passenger off the ship and made this decision based on medical advice (from his ships doctor, not a nurse). As to legal action, it is nearly impossible to win a suit over such an issue since the courts have always been reluctant to deal with marine law which gives the Captain sole authority. In addition, even finding a court with jurisdiction is quite difficult since you get into the old issues about whether it should be in Italy, USA, or the place where the ship is registered.

Hank

[world~citizen]

This is an interesting discussion, but does tend to drift. The bottom line is that the Captain has the sole legal authority to put any passenger off the ship and made this decision based on medical advice (from his ships doctor, not a nurse). As to legal action, it is nearly impossible to win a suit over such an issue since the courts have always been reluctant to deal with marine law which gives the Captain sole authority. In addition, even finding a court with jurisdiction is quite difficult since you get into the old issues about whether it should be in Italy, USA, or the place where the ship is registered.

Hank

There is some truth in this, but not a very good bottom line. A master does not have the right to endanger or act negligently or carelessly or in a manner inappropriate to the circumstances (not saying that that was the case here). Also I am not a lawyer myself.

Those who support HAL say the master did none of the above. I say I don't know, and ask how they could.

I apologize to those who feel otherwise, but I do not consider this to be a non-issue. I also do not pre-suppose HAL or its representatives to be guilty of anything.

I come from an old school that says have the trial before you hang someone. (figuratively speaking).

Smooth sailing...

[Cruiz'nBaers]

I have been checking in on this story from time to time, so I may have missed some previously posted answers to my question, if so I apologize. My questions is, if they purchased the "deluxe" travel insurance through HAL, wouldn't their medical and travel expenses be reimbursed? Thanks.

Linda:confused:

[twinkletoes4445]

Oh I read his book a few years ago..Had forgotten about that..Think I should read it again..I laughed too at some of his funny stories..

Thanks for reminding me..:) Betty


There were some really funny stories, but the one about the duck was hysterical. And the captain that managed to get stuck to the varnished handrail...that was also a good one. Oh...and the captain that fell off the fishing boat...that was funny. The Penthouse story was a good one.

I've noticed my copy is not around. Hmmm...I'll bet hubby is reading it now. :)

[Tamaracboy]

. . . Twinklestoes...Would you care to share the name of the book & it's author with us..
*******
he would be put off the ship & that's why he refused to call the Captain back & explain that he made a mistake..
*********

JMO..:)Betty

Bravo Betty ! ;)

Lookin' GOOD ! ! :)

You should have let me know how well you are doing ! ! ! :D

r.

[jtl513]

I have been checking in on this story from time to time, so I may have missed some previously posted answers to my question, if so I apologize. My questions is, if they purchased the "deluxe" travel insurance through HAL, wouldn't their medical and travel expenses be reimbursed? Thanks.

Linda:confused:Maybe, as suggested in post #70 (http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=18599096&highlight=#post18599096), by the time the Captain ordered them off the ship it had become more than merely a medical problem.

[kri52]

When I was last on Noordam in October (08) I suspected they had had a problem with someone having an allergic reaction to either a shot or medication. I usually travel for extended periods and have my shots given by the nurses on on the ship. For the first time in October, they refused to administer my shots unless I agreed to have an examination by the doctor first in the event I had an allergic reaction. As the fee for a doctor visit is rather steep (on top of their charge for administering the shot) I declined. I get these shots every month, have never had a reaction, and know what to do if I had one. But I surmised someone must have had a reaction to something given by a nurse without the ship's doctor's approval.

[LynnObie]

I got tired of reading all the various opinions so why not add mine.... Bottom line for me is that I've only heard/read the passengers' side of this story. I haven't heard/read HAL's. There are usually at least 3 sides to every story: The 2 opposing points of view + the unspun truth.

[Turtle Woman]

I know this is an old thread, but I was intrigued by all the entries and decided to do a little research. Because both Debra and Barry Allen are apparently lawyers, I am not going to state my personal opinions.

Try googling "Debra and Barry Allen Newport" and you'll find their company website and articles about their political and charitable activities in a local paper "The Daily Pilot".

If you google "Debra and Barry Allen Noordam" you will find further accounts on the "Cruise Bruise" website and the "International Cruise Victim" websites.

I was particularly interested in the latter website, where an article about victim Barry Allen is headlined "Pushed overboard by Holland American" and in a lead paragraph states "We were thrown into the Mediterranean Sea by Holland America officers about 7p.m., September 26, 2008. We had sailed about an hour out of ....." which makes it sound as if he was just tossed overboard.

[kryos]

It would certainly be interested to hear HAL's side of the story, but I'm sure we never will. Even if it comes out in court, that won't happen for several years. More likely, a settlement will be reached, in which both parties agree to remain silent.

You're probably right. My guess is that these people will get a settlement that will compensate them for the cost of their cruise and any other out of pocket expenses, and they'll be told never to darken HAL's door again. They'll be added to that "no sail list" or whatever it is called. But then, if they were treated as badly as they claim, I guess the prospect of never being able to sail another HAL ship won't be particularly upsetting to them anyway.

But I am sure there will be a gag order issued that everyone involved will have to agree to. After all, no one likes to give settlements and then have word of their amounts get out. That only encourages more lawsuits, most of them unjustified.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[world~citizen]

You're probably right. My guess is that these people will get a settlement that will compensate them for the cost of their cruise and any other out of pocket expenses, and they'll be told never to darken HAL's door again. They'll be added to that "no sail list" or whatever it is called. But then, if they were treated as badly as they claim, I guess the prospect of never being able to sail another HAL ship won't be particularly upsetting to them anyway.

But I am sure there will be a gag order issued that everyone involved will have to agree to. After all, no one likes to give settlements and then have word of their amounts get out. That only encourages more lawsuits, most of them unjustified.

Blue skies ...

--rita

Well your guesses may be good or they may be bad, but if there is a settlement or gag order those article on the web will probably have to go as part of the bargain.

Can we assume they are still unhappy campers?

[tomterw]

This is one of those incidents where nothing the ship does would please the passenger. The on-board health facilities on the Noordam are limited as is the staff. There are very good hospitals in Italy where they can treat any ailment. You can be sure the Captain was following the best medical advice of his shipboard physician. Failure of the Captain to follow medical advice would be idiotic.

Hank
Wow! This story is disturbing. While Hank may be correct that there are good hospitals in Italy, if this was a place the ship had advised passengers not to visit then obviously this was not one of those places with a good hospital. It sure would be nice to know what HAL's explanation was, but my guess is they will never tell. I, too would question the competency of the ship's doctor.

[tomterw]

I was recently on a HAL cruise where a passenger was taken ill with a suspected heart attack. We spoke with him over breakfast one morning and he said he received excellent care (in Haifa) but he and his wife were both told to pack their bags in case he needed extended treatment. They had to sign a release form to leave the ship. It transpired the Israeli medics thought it best for him to return to the US but didn't think the case was urgent. Since the next plane home was in 4 days and there was only 3 days remaining on the cruise they decided they would like to rejoin the ship rather than wait in a hotel room in Haifa. They had great difficulty in being allowed back on the ship as the ship's doctor thought he would not be in a position to treat him if he was taken ill. They then had to sign every more release forms waiving any rights.

I can understand why the ship wouldn't want to take responsibility of sick passengers when facilities to treat them onboard are inadequate. But I would hope they treat those involved with compassion and courtesy.

On another note, we were on a cruise from Goa two years ago. It was a new line and new cruise (we thought we would be on the 4th or 5th cruise so all teething problems would be ironed out, however we were actually the first)! We were extremely disappointed with the ship, the cabin and the cruise in general. Most importantly, there was no air conditioning in the cabins (the temperature was in high 30s/low 40s centigrade)! The waiters were bringing our found with perspiration dripping from their faces into the meals and everything was shabby and not as advertised. When we dared to complain to the cruise director and asked her to fax a letter of complaint to our HO on our behalf she came back to say she wanted us to leave the ship! We asked her if she would arrange transport/accommodation but she refused and said she would 'leave us at the port gate'. We were absolute dumbstruck. We were travelling with a relative who had recently been bereaved and were desperate for her not to become upset by all of this. We eventually agreed we would stay on to see if things improved. They actually got worse. We were not the only people complaining but somewhere we were 'scapegoated'. We eventually asked to be let off in Sri Lanka and found our own accommodation and transportation. When we arrived home we wrote to the company and received full compensation and expenses (including our airfares to and fro)! Needless to say the company is no longer in existence! But it is a truly dreadful feeling to be placed in that situation. My husband and I could cope with it but we were so anxious for our sister in law who was on her first cruise since losing her husband. Dreadful!!

I think the real key is the 2nd paragraph, namely the hope that the passenger would be treated courtesly and with compassion. Sometimes that happens and sometimes it does not. For those of you who have been treated compassionately, this is great, but consider yourselves lucky. Many of us (myself included) have not. Now I do consider myself lucky in that my problem with HAL was no where close to anything written here. I do hope the couple here will eventually get some appropriate level of closure on this, but I am sure it will take much time and effort.

[JerseyJaguar]

I do hope the couple here will eventually get some appropriate level of closure on this, but I am sure it will take much time and effort.
Unless they're lying, and then it will just take money.

[pipedreams62]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q

[4kids3dogs2cats&fish]

Just the fact that they got dumped into an inflatable boat, an hour from land, no less!, makes me hope they sue the cruise line for a ton of money and get it. The cruise line acknowledged the inflatable boat (in the local news report).

Totally mishandled from start to finish. Shame on HAL.

[Donray]

Just the fact that they got dumped into an inflatable boat, an hour from land, no less!, makes me hope they sue the cruise line for a ton of money and get it. The cruise line acknowledged the inflatable boat (in the local news report).

Totally mishandled from start to finish. Shame on HAL.

This happens more often then you think...

I have seen three times when people were removed from the ship in a foreign port for medical conditions. Not emergency medical conditions, but conditions the ships doctors thought they could not handle if things got worse. Two were probable minor heart attacks.

If one is going to sue, they better have a lot of doctors verify that they would have been better off on the ship without a hospital and proper medical equipment than on land with a hospital. Probably cost anyone a minimum off 100K to bring this to court and then another 100K to 200K for a trail. No one would do this on contingency.

[pms4104]

Just the fact that they got dumped into an inflatable boat, an hour from land, no less!, makes me hope they sue the cruise line for a ton of money and get it. The cruise line acknowledged the inflatable boat (in the local news report).

Totally mishandled from start to finish. Shame on HAL.
We only learned one emotionally-charged side of the story. Generally, there are three sides to every story. In this case ... their's, HAL's, and the truth, which likely lies somewhere between the other two versions.

[happy cruzer]

Ok, my take...

If two well trained lawyers can only make a case of the the strength displayed so far then I think that they are out for what they can get. They haven't mentioned any real damages. And if the insurance won't pay that tells me that there are not any covered/normal type damages. There is more to the story than they say. And what they say is is pretty weak.

Hey, they decided to travel in regions where English was not the first language, they decided to travel with pre-exiting medical conditions, etc. therefore I'm not sure that anyone is totally responsible for the resulting consequences.

Bottom line, they should be going after the insurance company and instead they are going after HAL with a smear campaign instead of one in the courts?????

[4kids3dogs2cats&fish]

And if the insurance won't pay that tells me that there are not any covered/normal type damages. There is more to the story than they say. And what they say is is pretty weak.

You're wrong. Insurance companies try to weasel out of paying many claims, as we have seen well too often. And I'd say what the couple says is pretty strong, not weak, the cruise line admitted the inflatable boat and had no hospital notified nor had any legitimate transport to said hospital. No hospital, no helicopter, no cruise employee escort, NO NOTHING. HAL really screwed up here, that's certainly clear.

they decided to travel with pre-exiting medical conditions, etc. therefore I'm not sure that anyone is totally responsible for the resulting consequences.

Wrong again. The guy had a runny nose from a cold. No mention of any preexisting condition except high blood pressure. Probably half the ship's passengers have a technical case of high blood pressure.

[jtl513]

Totally mishandled from start to finish. Shame on HAL.I see you're swallowing the couple's version of the story in toto. Many of us do not.

[gemcrusier]

YIKES!!!!:eek: I suppose they'll be writing HAL a strongly-worded letter!
love the dogs!!!!!!!!!!!

[Copper10-8]

The Italian Coast Guard and their lil' inflatable boats in the middle of the ocean in the dark! Mamma Mia!:eek: Those silly guys, what were/are they thinking!:rolleyes:

[happy cruzer]

You're wrong. Insurance companies try to weasel out of paying many claims, as we have seen well too often. And I'd say what the couple says is pretty strong, not weak, the cruise line admitted the inflatable boat and had no hospital notified nor had any legitimate transport to said hospital. No hospital, no helicopter, no cruise employee escort, NO NOTHING. HAL really screwed up here, that's certainly clear.



Wrong again. The guy had a runny nose from a cold. No mention of any preexisting condition except high blood pressure. Probably half the ship's passengers have a technical case of high blood pressure.

The couple was taken to a clinic. If the insurance company is not paying for the costs associated with that and the couple does not seem to be going after the insurance company but are trying to smear HAL. Sounds to me they don't think they have a good claim i.e. a weak case. The pre existing condition of blood pressure is what caused the problems with his treatments. They don't say why their claim was rejected, guesses would be they declined treatment on the ship, they made the decision that they needed better treatment than available on the ship, they did not get pre approval for treatment, any number of things....

I still say two lawyers doing alot of smearing instead of doing due process in the courts means it is a weak case.

[Nutrioso]

There are so many pieces missing to this story. And there have been so many suppositions on threads like this that one does not know what's real and what isn't. I advise caution! ----Penny