HMC HAL vs Carnival branding

[eh2zed]

As I understand it, HAL had acquired HMC prior to Carnival Corp purchasing HAL. For several years HAL used HMC exclusively. Then a few years ago Carnival Corp decided to let CCL use HMC when no HAL ships were scheduled there. Now I see that occasionally a HAL and CCL ship will be at HMC on the same day. Does anyone know what the longer term plans are for HMC. If the pattern continues is it possible HAL will get squeezed out by the bigger CCL ships. HMC has become a big draw for CCL it seems. What are your thoughts? Are the different Carnival Corp brands starting to get blurred??? Will all the brands survive in the long term as mass market cruising continues to grow???

[Himself]

I don't know about how much Carnival will use HMC but Carnival Corp owned HAL long before HMC came on the scene. Don't forget Carnival also owns Princess and they have a little Island called Princess Cay. During this time of the year all HAL ships will be in Alaska or Europe and none will be in the Caribbean and so no HAL ship will be going to HMC anyway. FYI ships started stopping at HMC in January 1998.

[eh2zed]

Yes you are correct, HMC came long after the 1988 purchase of HAL by Carnival Corp. Nonetheless, at the time it was stated that HMC would stay a HAL brand exclusive. That has changed and frankly I am not really surprised. Its a tremendous asset to leave unused when HAL cannot use it.

[Atomica]

Carnival ships started stopping at HMC a few years back, mainly during the summer months when HAL's ships were in other destinations. Carnival is one of the few mainstream lines to not have a private island in the Bahamas to call its own - thus, it uses HAL's.

Cunard stops at Princess Cays on several sailings, and NCL & MSC both use Cayo Leventado. I don't see the problem with Carnival stopping at HMC.

Are the lines blurring? Maybe. In the last five years, I've been on Cunard, HAL, Princess, NCL & Royal Caribbean. The biggest differences between the lines are probably the ships themselves.

[bepsf]

Will all the brands survive in the long term as mass market cruising continues to grow???

There are definitely a few brands that won't survive - But in my opinion it won't be because cruising continues to grow, but because the market for cruises will constrict, fares will drop due to over-capacity and service/amenities will diminish just like the domestic airlines over the past 10 years or so.

[kryos]

Carnival owns HAL and HAL owns HMC. That means Carnival owns HMC. I would imagine the idea is to get the most bang for their HMC buck and I could well foresee the time coming when HAL ships will routinely share HMC with a Carnival ship. And that's just something we're gonna have to deal with.

I don't think HAL will ever get totally squeezed out because HMC only has so much capacity on any given day. One large Carnival ship and one mid-sized HAL one is probably about all the island could handle, so I would imagine there will always be a place there for at least one HAL ship on any given day. But I can also see the day coming when you won't have as many HAL itineraries making calls there, because they'll be juggling with the Carnival ships.

HMC is an island paradise, and I guess Carnival passengers have discovered that fact too.

Who knows? Maybe at some point in the future HAL/Carnival will further develop the island so as to increase its capacity? Then you could maybe have four ships calling there on the same day.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

There are definitely a few brands that won't survive - But in my opinion it won't be because cruising continues to grow, but because the market for cruises will constrict, fares will drop due to over-capacity and service/amenities will diminish just like the domestic airlines over the past 10 years or so.Funny you should say this, because the "industry experts" don't see it that way, and I think that's dumb. We all love cruising and that's why we are on these boards. But the sad fact is that for a lot of people, cruising is something that wouldn't appeal to them in the slightest. I have friends who, despite my raving about my most recent cruise, just can't see where the fun is. They want to fly to where they are going, and then get on with their fun vacation. They just can't imagine taking four days to sail to Hawaii, and another four back, when they could just fly there in seven or eight hours and then spend their whole 15 days there.

I don't think the market for cruising is open-ended and I think we are rapidly reaching the saturation point. Well, the cruise industry says that something like only 20% of the population has ever taken a cruise, and they just assume that the other 80% are just customers waiting for the right time. I say that probably at least 60% of that pool hasn't taken a cruise, and wouldn't even if you gave it to them. There are just some people not cut out for cruising.

So the cruise lines have built, and continue to build, larger and larger ships, each more elaborate than the next ... and I think one day they are gonna realize that they've gotten too big and are now forced to practically give the cabins away on some of those ships. The ships are so big that they will find it more and more difficult to fill all those cabins week in and week out. I can imagine in my "fantasies" a day coming when many cruise lines (the big ones with the mega ships) will offer "deals." You get your cabin for free, but have to purchase a voucher for XXX number of dollars in non-refundable onboard credit ... the amount of which will be determined by the level of cabin accommodations. A strategy such as this would ensure the cabins being filled by people who will spend money onboard the ship, because if they don't spend it, they won't be able to get it back. At least then the cruise line will be ensured at least some revenue on each of those cabins.

But you are right ... there could be some cruise lines that don't survive in this ever-tightening economy ... and I personally think the cruise lines that don't make it will be the ones who simply got too big for their own good and built too many ships.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[richwmn]

Carnival owns HAL and HAL owns HMC. That means Carnival owns HMC. I would imagine the idea is to get the most bang for their HMC buck and I could well foresee the time coming when HAL ships will routinely share HMC with a Carnival ship. And that's just something we're gonna have to deal with.

I don't think HAL will ever get totally squeezed out because HMC only has so much capacity on any given day. One large Carnival ship and one mid-sized HAL one is probably about all the island could handle, so I would imagine there will always be a place there for at least one HAL ship on any given day. But I can also see the day coming when you won't have as many HAL itineraries making calls there, because they'll be juggling with the Carnival ships.

HMC is an island paradise, and I guess Carnival passengers have discovered that fact too.
Who knows? Maybe at some point in the future HAL/Carnival will further develop the island so as to increase its capacity? Then you could maybe have four ships calling there on the same day.

Blue skies ...

--rita

One small problem. Carnival Corp and Carnival Cruise Lines are two different entities. Carnival Corp (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=140690&p=irol-index) owns Holland America, Carnival Cruise Lines and the others. Carnival Cruise Lines is on an equal basis under the umbrella as Holland America.


Rich

[eh2zed]

There are definitely a few brands that won't survive - But in my opinion it won't be because cruising continues to grow, but because the market for cruises will constrict, fares will drop due to over-capacity and service/amenities will diminish just like the domestic airlines over the past 10 years or so.
Brian, I think you may be right.

[eh2zed]

I would hate to see HAL itineraries use HMC less and less to make room for more and more Carnival ships but that may come. Expanding HMC to allow for a third or fourth ship may be possible but is there enough beach elsewhere on the island.

[fireofficer5]

Didn't the Zuiderdam sail year round carribean cruises until 2006?
And call on HMC.
I like each cruise line to hace its own idenity.

[innlady1]

There are definitely a few brands that won't survive - But in my opinion it won't be because cruising continues to grow, but because the market for cruises will constrict, fares will drop due to over-capacity and service/amenities will diminish just like the domestic airlines over the past 10 years or so.

Interesting you should say this. On our Noordam, I went to the Captain's Chat and Capt. Mateboer mentioned the very same thing in the Q & A. Something to the effect, "this time, next year, there will be fewer cruise lines."

I have no doubt that what you say will happen, will happen. Further, I just don't see why all future builds haven't been put on hold, given the economy.

[swedish weave]

I saw the demise of Sitmar when Princess bought them. Sitmar was once considered among the elite cruise lines, but the brand disappeared. If Carnival has to downsize due to the economy, the lines that are adding less to the bottom line are the ones that will disappear. Carnival made their money by selling a low cost product and selling lots of booze. Re - "Party ships". If that is what makes money, that is what will survive.

[sail7seas]

I've heard the chance Carnival Corporation may be looking to buy another line....not dump any.

My guess would be that if Costa, Seabourn and/or Cunard can not hold there own, they may disappear from the Carnival Family of Ships but it's only my personal 'guess'.

[pms4104]

I would hate to see HAL itineraries use HMC less and less to make room for more and more Carnival ships but that may come. Expanding HMC to allow for a third or fourth ship may be possible but is there enough beach elsewhere on the island.
Funny you should mention 3 or 4 ships at HMC same day ... poked around on one of those sites that shows ships in various ports on specific days. I found only 1 upcoming day with a HAL and a Carnival ship there together. but, and here's the kicker, I found 3 days with 3 HAL ships there at a time: 1/23/10 (Noordam, Westerdam, Zuiderdam), 2/12/10 (Eurodam, Noordam, Zuiderdam), and 3/4/10 (Maasdam, Noordam, Zuiderdam).

I recognize these ports and ships sites may not be totally accurate ... but, OMG, 3 Vistas at once or a Signature and 2 Vistas! Talk about over-crowding ... should make for thousands of not very happy people on a very beautiful island. Can't imagine HMC accommodating up to 5700 in a single day. Granted, not everyone gets off the ship at HMC, but it could turn ugly fast!

[kryos]

I don't know about how much Carnival will use HMC but Carnival Corp owned HAL long before HMC came on the scene. Don't forget Carnival also owns Princess and they have a little Island called Princess Cay. During this time of the year all HAL ships will be in Alaska or Europe and none will be in the Caribbean and so no HAL ship will be going to HMC anyway. FYI ships started stopping at HMC in January 1998.

Princess Cay is a dump compared to HMC. Sorry, just my opinion.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

but, and here's the kicker, I found 3 days with 3 HAL ships there at a time: 1/23/10 (Noordam, Westerdam, Zuiderdam), 2/12/10 (Eurodam, Noordam, Zuiderdam), and 3/4/10 (Maasdam, Noordam, Zuiderdam).

That's gonna be way too packed, in my opinion. Three ships, with one being a Vista and the other the Eurodam, is going to drop in excess of 5,000 people onto that island. No way can HMC handle that crowd.

My guess is that one of those ships will bypass HMC and substitute it with something else. At least I hope so. If HAL wants to have three ships visiting that island on the same day, they are going to need to develop a much larger section of it to provide for more facililties. Otherwise, they are going to destroy the experience for passengers onboard all of those ships.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[pms4104]

Funny you should mention 3 or 4 ships at HMC same day ... poked around on one of those sites that shows ships in various ports on specific days. I found only 1 upcoming day with a HAL and a Carnival ship there together. but, and here's the kicker, I found 3 days with 3 HAL ships there at a time: 1/23/10 (Noordam, Westerdam, Zuiderdam), 2/12/10 (Eurodam, Noordam, Zuiderdam), and 3/4/10 (Maasdam, Noordam, Zuiderdam).

I recognize these ports and ships sites may not be totally accurate ... but, OMG, 3 Vistas at once or a Signature and 2 Vistas! Talk about over-crowding ... should make for thousands of not very happy people on a very beautiful island. Can't imagine HMC accommodating up to 5700 in a single day. Granted, not everyone gets off the ship at HMC, but it could turn ugly fast!

Update: so now I poked around on HAL's site, and it appears that my statement above about 3 HAL ships at a time on HMC is not correct. Sorry to have alarmed anyone if I did so.

[lorekauf]

Princess Cay is a dump compared to HMC. Sorry, just my opinion.

Blue skies ...

--rita
I wouldn't say it's a dump but HMC is much nicer then Princess Cays.

[djhsolara]

Princess Cay is a dump compared to HMC. Sorry, just my opinion.

Blue skies ...

--rita


I totally agree!!

[djhsolara]

Just an aesthetics question...does anyone know if they "re-merchandise" HMC when Carnival calls there since all of the signage is based on the HAL logo?

[kryos]

I saw the demise of Sitmar when Princess bought them. Sitmar was once considered among the elite cruise lines, but the brand disappeared. If Carnival has to downsize due to the economy, the lines that are adding less to the bottom line are the ones that will disappear. Carnival made their money by selling a low cost product and selling lots of booze. Re - "Party ships". If that is what makes money, that is what will survive.Fortunately for HAL, they have their niche as well ... and it's a lucrative niche of people who like more sophisticated itineraries and longer cruises. Frankly, I'd be willing to bet that it is these sailings that are HAL's bread and butter ... not the shorter cruises. I think MOST of the people that are in the market for a "getaway" cruise to the Caribbean are probably more the Carnival type of passenger anyway ... younger crowd that wants a ship with a varied nightlife ... lots of things going on ... fun pool games during the day ... tons of fun stuff for the kids. And, there's nothing wrong with that. It's a viable market. But HAL appeals, in my opinion, to another kind of cruiser ... and one that probably has a lot more disposable income. So, I wouldn't worry about HAL surviving. In fact, I think they'll do better than most.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

Just an aesthetics question...does anyone know if they "re-merchandise" HMC when Carnival calls there since all of the signage is based on the HAL logo?I would doubt it. In fact, if I were Carnival, I wouldn't. People know HMC is HAL's "island paradise." They've heard so many good things about it, but probably wouldn't want to sail HAL just to visit it. So, Carnival can very well market HMC as HAL's private island more successfully than trying to specifically rebrand it for Carnival.

Just my opinion.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

One small problem. Carnival Corp and Carnival Cruise Lines are two different entities. Carnival Corp (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=140690&p=irol-index) owns Holland America, Carnival Cruise Lines and the others. Carnival Cruise Lines is on an equal basis under the umbrella as Holland America.

In my opinion, that's all just a question of semantics. The bottom line is that Carnival Corp pays the bills ... for Carnival Cruise Lines and for HAL ... and if they make a "corporate" decision that other cruise lines under the Carnival umbrella will begin using HMC ... and I've seen cases where even Cunard has used it ... then that's what will happen.

I am sure having a private island in the Bahamas is not cheap. It's also a logistics headache. Carnival or HAL or whoever has to make sure that whenever there's a ship calling that there are staff to service the island on that day. True, the ships' own staff would take care of food and beverage service, but there are a lot of other service providers that have to be obtained locally. I would imagine if only one line, such as HAL, uses the island ... this could be a problem. There are long periods of time when there are no ship calls and thus no work for the people who generally come over to service the cruise ship calls.

So, letting other cruise lines under the Carnival umbrella use the island just makes more sense. It provides year-round work for those people and maybe one day Carnival could actually build a small community for them ... so that they could just live on HMC instead of boating over from Eutheleria (sp?).

My only concern is too many ships being at HMC on the same day ... or having two big Carnival party boats there with a HAL ship on the same day. That, at least to me, would change the whole complexion of the place and make it not such a nice place to visit anymore.

So, I hope Carnival has enough sense to keep HAL and Carnival ships separate ... and if they are going to have situations where three ships call there on the same day ... even three HAL ships ... then develop some more acreage on that island so that all those passengers can be adequately accommodated.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

I would hate to see HAL itineraries use HMC less and less to make room for more and more Carnival ships but that may come. Expanding HMC to allow for a third or fourth ship may be possible but is there enough beach elsewhere on the island. I don't know, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that only a very, very small percentage of HMC is actually used by HAL. The rest of it is basically undeveloped. Wouldn't there be plenty of beach on the other side of the island that could be used if need be? All it would take would be a few "shuttle" trams to take people back and forth to venues located on the other side.

Or, am I missing something?

I am not advocating HAL or Carnival developing the entire island. That would be stupid and would destroy the wildlife there. But I do think there is plenty of room to grow on HMC ... and perhaps Carnival is gonna need to look into some possible expansion.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[jtl513]

scratched

[Boytjie]

Princess Cay is a dump compared to HMC. Sorry, just my opinion.

Blue skies ...

--rita

I totally agree!!

Princess Cay a dump? I beg to seriously differ. It is not Half Moon Cay but it very far from a dump. :rolleyes:

Have you even been to Princess Cay? And when??

[Boytjie]

and I've seen cases where even Cunard has used it ...

It was my impression that Cunard uses Princess Cay.

[bepsf]

I agree w/ Captain Mateboer's statement about there being fewer cruiselines - I would expect to see NCL fail before long because there's not one thing that it does that several other lines have not been able to co-opt for themselves, and in some cases do better.

However, CCL has it's own share of problems: Too many ill-defined brands. Carnival has traditionally been very effective for the low-end segment, competing against RCCL, but it's newer ships have been consistently moving upmarket and often compete against Princess and HAL for many Caribbean, Mexican and Mediterranean itineraries. Costa is effective for the European segment - competing with MSC and RCCL - but it also competes against CCL and HAL on some European itineraries. Princess is an effective competitor with Celebrity and NCL, but also competes against P&O and HAL. Seabourn is effective against Silversea and RSSC - but also in many ways against Cunard.

HAL is caught dead in the middle: It competes against Cunard, P&O and Fred Olsen on the Grand/World Voyages; Oceania, Celebrity, Princess, Cunard and Fred Olsen on the exotic itineraries; and Celebrity, Princess, Carnival and sometimes even MSC and Costa on the shorter itineraries.

HAL no longer has a unique or consistent market identity as a traditional premium cruiseline. The ads try to sell HAL as a premium line, but it's hopelessly outclassed by Cunard which has taken it's top-line place and resources within the corporate structure, Celebrity which has captured the public's imagination with it's new Solstice Class ships while HAL rolls out another retread of the Vista Class, and Oceania which is bringing people in with it's port-intensive itineraries, small Country-Club Casual ships and "2-for1 plus Free Airfare" offers to Europe. Seattle has loaded up the older ships with "Family Friendly" gimmickry like the Loft/Oasis which was a poor attempt to draw young families away from Carnival and RCCL - the Retreat water-park additions for the S-Class ships will surely be a similar failure. Princess is now better equipped to compete w/ both Celebrity and NCL not only in the size of their ships, variety of venues and itineraries but also in "Freestyle Cruising" - something that HAL has, unlike Princess, neither managed to make work well nor earn significant added onboard revenues for it's trouble.

HAL/CCL have apparently been under the impression that HAL clientele are either a dying breed or not doing enough onboard spending - or both - so in order to survive and grow HAL needs to move beyond it's own traditional/medium-small ship/medium-priced/exotic-itinerary/low-onboard spending market niche. Not only is this strategy of bringing in new passengers to the line and increasing onboard spending not working effectively, but in many cases it's efforts to remake itself are alienating the loyal clientele who have brought the brand success in the past.

[hammybee]

I've heard the chance Carnival Corporation may be looking to buy another line....not dump any.

My guess would be that if Costa, Seabourn and/or Cunard can not hold there own, they may disappear from the Carnival Family of Ships but it's only my personal 'guess'.



Former board host Doug has told this board that COSTA was the cash cow of the CCL empire. I wonder if this remains true.

My sense is that Seabourn has been operating in the red, for a long, long time and remains, only due to corporate ego.

[kryos]

Princess Cay a dump? I beg to seriously differ. It is not Half Moon Cay but it very far from a dump. :rolleyes:

Have you even been to Princess Cay? And when??

I was at Princess Cay in 2005 ... the one year where I sailed Princess twice.

I didn't say Princess Cay was a dump. I just said that COMPARED to HMC it is a dump ... and I still hold to that opinion. But on it's own ... no, it is certainly adequate as private islands go, but you have to understand that HMC is special ... a cut above the rest ... at least in my humble opinion. While I haven't been to any other cruise lines' private islands, I would bet most of them can't hold a candle to HMC either.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

HAL no longer has a unique or consistent market identity as a traditional premium cruiseline. The ads try to sell HAL as a premium line, but it's hopelessly outclassed by Cunard which has taken it's top-line place and resources within the corporate structure
I've long said ... but I'm just a voice crying into the wind ... that HAL needs to re-invent itself into TWO separate brands. I don't know what you would call them ... for sake of simplicity let's say HAL Family and Holland America Cruise Line. HAL today is two separate lines and maybe they need to consider making that distinction official in order to go after entirely separate markets.

HAL Family would be the HAL of late ... popular itineraries, ships with more family-friendly amenities, expanded children's programs, more availability of babysitting, less strict formality, a more active nightlife, etc. HAL Family would be more geared to the younger cruiser, raising a family, or just looking for a nice seven-day getaway on a ship that will provide for plenty of things to do. True, I don't think it would be a good idea for HAL to ever offer the bellyflop contest, but there is nothing wrong with some fun by the pool for people to partake in as they are sunbathing. HAL Family would do the popular type of itineraries ... Caribbbean, Alaska, Panama Canal, etc. -- just those places that lend themselves to shorter sailings. Maybe HAL Family could even do a selection of shorter cruises to the Bahamas, etc., that would appeal to those families who can't necessarily get a whole week off from work. Most of the ships used by HAL Family would be the larger ones in the fleet ... Vista and Signature Class Vessels.

Holland America Cruise Line, however, would be more like the HAL of old. It would utilize the smaller ships and offer many of the "traditions" that HAL regulars seem to embrace. There would be little in the way of children's programs because children would not be a major factor on the type of cruises this section of the brand did. Holland America Cruise Line would specialize in the grand voyages, the elaborate itineraries, the World Cruise, expanded European sailings, Baltics, stuff like that. It would cater to primarily adults, and it would focus on providing an elegant cruise experience that this segment of the market could not only afford, but would probably be only too happy to fork over premium bucks for ... especially since they would know they are going to be getting the HAL traditions that they are used to ... the elegant afternoon tea, the hot snacks in the lounges every night, a better quality of food in the main dining room, and yes ... even more strictly adhered to formality on those nights when formality is called for.

I think the reason HAL might be struggling (if, in fact, they are struggling) is because they are trying to be too many things to too many people. They want the family market, so they encourage them. But, yet they want their traditional cruiser and that's why they offer things that cruiser likes, like long itineraries. As a result, HAL is losing their brand identity, not clarifying it. Cunard and Disney, on the other hand, have firmly established their brand and the people that sail their ships love it. Cunard only runs three ships at the most at any given time, and that's why they can stick to strictly their own target market. "This is what we offer. This is what we represent. This is how we run our ships. If you like it, fine ... welcome aboard. If not, then don't darken our door." You won't see Cunard making any major changes from the way they have been doing things for years. And what's more ... they don't have to. They only have a small number of ships, and plenty of market that wants to sail them as is. I doubt you'll ever see people complaining about jeans in the dining room on a Cunard cruise ... because that would never happen. That passenger would be sent right upstairs to King's Court, or back to their cabin to change. On HAL, the maitre'd is hesitant to do that for fear of "offending" paying passengers that HAL really needs today. I had one maitre'd tell me "I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't enforce the dress code." He's right. HAL is trying so hard to attract younger families on their shorter cruises, and those younger cruisers tend to be more informal in nature. HAL can't afford to get a reputation for being "high brow" and sending them away from the dining room because that would go in direct conflict to HAL's marketing direction. So, the maitre'd pretty much has to look the other way on those cruises and let them in as is.

Then, let's look at Disney. Less ships, very well-defined brand. You'll pay double or more for a Disney cruise for the family. Yet, many people are more than willing to pay the premium because they want those things that are uniquely Disney and can't be gotten on any other cruise line. Disney has a very well-defined brand presence ... and they are known for fiercely defending it. Let any other cruise line try to "copy" Disney in any major respect and if it can be done, Disney will have them in court in a heartbeat. Disney is unique in the marketplace ... and everything Disney is branded and copyrighted, and I'd be willing to bet that because of that they are probably one of the most profitable cruise lines out there. They too don't try to have a huge fleet of ships sailing and because of that, they have no trouble filling the ships they do have, week after week, year after year ... and with people who specifically want that Disney experience and are more than happy to pay premium bucks to get it.

This is why I say ... HAL has become everything to everyone, and nothing to many ... and that's not a good thing. That's why I say, tighten up the brand identity. Break HAL into two separate cruise lines, each with their own unique niche and then everyone will be happy in their own special place.

Just my opinion.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Boytjie]

I didn't say Princess Cay was a dump. I just said that COMPARED to HMC it is a dump ... and I still hold to that opinion. But on it's own ... no, it is certainly adequate as private islands go, but you have to understand that HMC is special ... a cut above the rest ... at least in my humble opinion. While I haven't been to any other cruise lines' private islands, I would bet most of them can't hold a candle to HMC either.

Blue skies ...

--rita

It is a given that Half Moon Cay is nicer that Princess Cay but I would love to know what your definition of a dump is! :eek: It seems you have only two categories: HMC and Dump!

I was at Princess Cay in 2007, my first private island, and thought it was very nice. I have since been twice to HMC and think it is very special. But I would not hesitate going back to HMC. It was very tempted to do a QM2 3-day from New York to Princess Cay a few years ago.

[Boytjie]

Cunard only runs three ships at the most at any given time, and that's why they can stick to strictly their own target market. "This is what we offer. This is what we represent. This is how we run our ships. If you like it, fine ... welcome aboard. If not, then don't darken our door." You won't see Cunard making any major changes from the way they have been doing things for years. And what's more ... they don't have to. They only have a small number of ships, and plenty of market that wants to sail them as is.

Have you been following the Cunard boards at all?? There is a constant moan about how the old Cunard is gone and Princess is ruining the Cunard brand with cruise ships like Icky Vicky, the Vegas-style QM2 and woe-is-done the QE2 is gone. And they are slashing prices like everyone else. (I just got an upgrade from an inside to an obstructed balcony for less!)They have a kids program on Cunard! :eek:

I doubt you'll ever see people complaining about jeans in the dining room on a Cunard cruise ... because that would never happen.

Really, have you been following the Cunard boards at all? They have their fair share of clothing threads. :D OK, they are more formal but they can complain about cummerbunds and colors of mens' ties on formal night. Same argument, different details.

Break HAL into two separate cruise lines, each with their own unique niche and then everyone will be happy in their own special place.

How much more fragmentation can the cruise industry carry?

[DFD1]

We were at Princess Cay a few years ago and had a great time, but the beach is not as pretty as HMC. Few places on this planet are.

[djhsolara]

Princess Cay a dump? I beg to seriously differ. It is not Half Moon Cay but it very far from a dump. :rolleyes:

Have you even been to Princess Cay? And when??


Just my opinion. Missed HMC on Westerdam in 2006, got there in 2007 then Princess Cays in 2008 and back to HMC in 2009. If I hadn't been to HMC first then perhaps I would have really liked PC more, but I wasn't and I do not. In my opinion it is nothing compared to HMC...HMC is like a total paradise to me.

[Boytjie]

Just my opinion. Missed HMC on Westerdam in 2006, got there in 2007 then Princess Cays in 2008 and back to HMC in 2009. If I hadn't been to HMC first then perhaps I would have really liked PC more, but I wasn't and I do not. In my opinion it is nothing compared to HMC...HMC is like a total paradise to me.

So all other beaches have been spoilt for you after visiting HMC?

[Cuizer2]

FYI ships started stopping at HMC in January 1998.Did any ships stop starting?

[CDRMark]

I've long said ... but I'm just a voice crying into the wind ... that HAL needs to re-invent itself into TWO separate brands. I don't know what you would call them ... for sake of simplicity let's say HAL Family and Holland America Cruise Line. HAL today is two separate lines and maybe they need to consider making that distinction official in order to go after entirely separate markets.

HAL Family would be the HAL of late ... popular itineraries, ships with more family-friendly amenities, expanded children's programs, more availability of babysitting, less strict formality, a more active nightlife, etc. HAL Family would be more geared to the younger cruiser, raising a family, or just looking for a nice seven-day getaway on a ship that will provide for plenty of things to do. True, I don't think it would be a good idea for HAL to ever offer the bellyflop contest, but there is nothing wrong with some fun by the pool for people to partake in as they are sunbathing. HAL Family would do the popular type of itineraries ... Caribbbean, Alaska, Panama Canal, etc. -- just those places that lend themselves to shorter sailings. Maybe HAL Family could even do a selection of shorter cruises to the Bahamas, etc., that would appeal to those families who can't necessarily get a whole week off from work. Most of the ships used by HAL Family would be the larger ones in the fleet ... Vista and Signature Class Vessels.

Holland America Cruise Line, however, would be more like the HAL of old. It would utilize the smaller ships and offer many of the "traditions" that HAL regulars seem to embrace. There would be little in the way of children's programs because children would not be a major factor on the type of cruises this section of the brand did. Holland America Cruise Line would specialize in the grand voyages, the elaborate itineraries, the World Cruise, expanded European sailings, Baltics, stuff like that. It would cater to primarily adults, and it would focus on providing an elegant cruise experience that this segment of the market could not only afford, but would probably be only too happy to fork over premium bucks for ... especially since they would know they are going to be getting the HAL traditions that they are used to ... the elegant afternoon tea, the hot snacks in the lounges every night, a better quality of food in the main dining room, and yes ... even more strictly adhered to formality on those nights when formality is called for.

I think the reason HAL might be struggling (if, in fact, they are struggling) is because they are trying to be too many things to too many people. They want the family market, so they encourage them. But, yet they want their traditional cruiser and that's why they offer things that cruiser likes, like long itineraries. As a result, HAL is losing their brand identity, not clarifying it. Cunard and Disney, on the other hand, have firmly established their brand and the people that sail their ships love it. Cunard only runs three ships at the most at any given time, and that's why they can stick to strictly their own target market. "This is what we offer. This is what we represent. This is how we run our ships. If you like it, fine ... welcome aboard. If not, then don't darken our door." You won't see Cunard making any major changes from the way they have been doing things for years. And what's more ... they don't have to. They only have a small number of ships, and plenty of market that wants to sail them as is. I doubt you'll ever see people complaining about jeans in the dining room on a Cunard cruise ... because that would never happen. That passenger would be sent right upstairs to King's Court, or back to their cabin to change. On HAL, the maitre'd is hesitant to do that for fear of "offending" paying passengers that HAL really needs today. I had one maitre'd tell me "I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't enforce the dress code." He's right. HAL is trying so hard to attract younger families on their shorter cruises, and those younger cruisers tend to be more informal in nature. HAL can't afford to get a reputation for being "high brow" and sending them away from the dining room because that would go in direct conflict to HAL's marketing direction. So, the maitre'd pretty much has to look the other way on those cruises and let them in as is.

Then, let's look at Disney. Less ships, very well-defined brand. You'll pay double or more for a Disney cruise for the family. Yet, many people are more than willing to pay the premium because they want those things that are uniquely Disney and can't be gotten on any other cruise line. Disney has a very well-defined brand presence ... and they are known for fiercely defending it. Let any other cruise line try to "copy" Disney in any major respect and if it can be done, Disney will have them in court in a heartbeat. Disney is unique in the marketplace ... and everything Disney is branded and copyrighted, and I'd be willing to bet that because of that they are probably one of the most profitable cruise lines out there. They too don't try to have a huge fleet of ships sailing and because of that, they have no trouble filling the ships they do have, week after week, year after year ... and with people who specifically want that Disney experience and are more than happy to pay premium bucks to get it.

This is why I say ... HAL has become everything to everyone, and nothing to many ... and that's not a good thing. That's why I say, tighten up the brand identity. Break HAL into two separate cruise lines, each with their own unique niche and then everyone will be happy in their own special place.

Just my opinion.

Blue skies ...

--rita
Well studied and elucidated as always Rita.
How about Princess as 'HAL family', and HAL as HAL?
Only the Princess loyalists to annoy then.
And Cunard is significantly bothering the Cunard fundamentalists with the QV and QE ("Not PROPER liners!").
Oh well.
Cheers
Mark

[oysterdam]

My sense is that Seabourn has been operating in the red, for a long, long time and remains, only due to corporate ego.

Perhaps, but how can we know unless we see their numbers. Carnival Corp must have seen some future in Seabourn, as they finally decided to launch new ships after many, many years. The new Seabourn Odyssey starts cruising this June with the new Seabourn Sojourn set to debut next year.

Joe