Large Group Cruises

[KAKcruiser]

Does anyone know how to find out if any large groups will be aboard a particular sailing?

[Florida Lady]

Large affinity groups can be a problem. We experienced a nightmare in Feb 1987 when we sailed on the Noordam. It took us many years to again sail on HAL. The ship was filled with Mercedes Auto dealership owners and their families. They were the most annoying people I have even met. I vowed that because of them I would NEVER buy a Mercedes no matter how much money I made in my life. Many of the public rooms were closed for their personal events during the day and in the evening. They saved masses of chairs by the pools. They were the most poorly behaved people I have ever met on any vacation. In recent cruises I have seen some large groups of people but NEVER like those on the Noordam in 1987.

[KAKcruiser]

I agree that large groups can be a problem. That's why I would like to know in advance so I can decide whether to go on that particular sailing. The HAL reps just say they have no access to that information. A couple of months ago someone printed a web site that listed groups but that web site is now closed down.

[sail7seas]

Large affinity groups can be a problem. We experienced a nightmare in Feb 1987 when we sailed on the Noordam. It took us many years to again sail on HAL. The ship was filled with Mercedes Auto dealership owners and their families. They were the most annoying people I have even met. I vowed that because of them I would NEVER buy a Mercedes no matter how much money I made in my life. Many of the public rooms were closed for their personal events during the day and in the evening. They saved masses of chairs by the pools. They were the most poorly behaved people I have ever met on any vacation. In recent cruises I have seen some large groups of people but NEVER like those on the Noordam in 1987.


We experienced the same horrible situation that you describe on Ryndam a number of years ago when there was a very large group led by "Gertrude" (I'll never forget her or her name :( she was so ugly to the rest of us aboard). She had a large Irish group aboard who brought their own band for Irish Music. The people and their music were fine.

What was not fine was that for 8 our of 10 nights we could not go to Crows Nest. They threw us out of aft pool all sea days at 2 PM so they could have a private party w/ their music out there and too bad about the rest of us who had paid our fares to use the whole ship.....not just a tiny corner of it. They took over the dining room and it was impossible for anyone who was not in their group to have full enjoyment of the ship.

HAL should NEVER IMO allow a group to take over 75-80% of a ship and then subject the rest of the pax to such a bad experience. They should insist the group takes the whole ship.....or they simply do not sell the remaining available space to people who are not fully informed of what the situation will be once aboard. GREED dictates, as always!!!

[gizmo]

KAK,

This question has been asked many times in the past. Cruise lines just won't give out the information.

I know the web site you referred to. When it was in operation it only had a fraction of the group cruises that were available.

[x lindsay x]

Sail,
I can not believe you were kicked out of public areas for private group functions! I can not imagine a group that large taking over the entire ship, I am not one to make a scene but I would've been at the front desk complaining about having my cruise experience compromised because of the large group.

On our recent Zuiderdam cruise there were two groups, one group from Acoustic Guitar Magazine and the other from a chain of cruise ship sales offices from Canada. We did have the leave the Crow's Nest once, in the middle of the afternoon, to accomodate the travel agents but other than that they were a great group. They sat by us in the dining room and were no problem at all.

[sail7seas]

We most assuredly had a meeting with the GRM but, while she was the one who had to deal with it, it was not of her doing and there was little she could do about it. Seattle presented her with this situation and there was no way she was going to please 'all of the people'. Either the group or us were going to be unhappy. The large numbers of the group won :)

We are not people who seek Compensation. We do not want to have something 'made up to us' by handing over money or future cruise credits. We want to enjoy all aspects of what we have purchased in the 'here and now'. We did not buy use of only 40% of the ship. No one informed us we would not have use of theCrowsnest after dinner. That is not acceptible IMO No one told us we would not be able to enjoy our usual spot at aft pool when we chose to be there etc

Sometimes, however, there is not going to be a practical solution. The senior crew was very nice to us and others who were badly impacted. They did their best to salvage a vacation for us. But it is true that it is very difficult to find out if a large group is booked. I hope that never happens to us again. It was not pleasant.

[Krazy Kruizers]

We have been unfortunate to end up on a cruise where there were large groups sailing together. I, too, wish there was a way we could find out in advance when HAL is permitting groups of 300 or more to be on a ship. They do tend to take over everything.

We were fortunate on our last cruise that there were only 200 Grand Circle passengers and they only had a couple of parties when the lounges were closed for a short period of time.

[Arubalisa]

Oh brother, my parent's had such a horrible experience with a group on a Celebrity cruise years ago that the rest of the passensgers filed a lawsuit against the cruise line for compensation. We are talking THROWING chaise lounges off the back of the ship, kids banging on the cabin walls at 3 a.m., running down the corridors yelling and screaming, total lawlessness day and night!

The case was settled out of court some nine months later, don't remember the settlement specifically, it was not a free cruise, but a substantial discount on another Celebrity cruise. My parents have since fallen in love with Celebrity on their subsequent cruises. I'm sure they will be happy with HAL as well.

[KAKcruiser]

One time there was a dance group which consisted of maybe a couple hundred people. They were okay. In fact, they invited the rest of the ship to their competition in the show lounge in the afternoon. They were quite good. But, they were a relatively small group and extremely well-mannered. However, I do think that the cruise lines should share this information. I worry about the extremely large groups who take over the ship.

[sail7seas]

I worry about the extremely large groups who take over the ship.

We all are concerned about that when we book a cruise, I would imagine.

[kryos]

I can not believe you were kicked out of public areas for private group functions! I can not imagine a group that large taking over the entire ship, I am not one to make a scene but I would've been at the front desk complaining about having my cruise experience compromised because of the large group.
Yeah, that sounds strange to me too.

On my first cruise, I was part of a large writer's group that was having a conference aboard the Rotterdam. There were three separate "tracts," a retreat, a book lovers group and a writer's "challenge" at sea which involved everyone writing three pieces, one of which would be published in a special book being produced as a result of the cruise. Altogther, we were a pretty big group ... so big, in fact, that the travel agents who assisted the organization putting on the event got to travel along with the group for free.

While we did have exclusive use of some of the conference rooms and smaller lounges, we never took over any of the large public venues such as the crow's nest or the pool deck. Yes, we had some meetings in the crow's nest, and once they even opened the bar for us at a time when it was normally closed, but other passengers were in that area too ... we just congregated in one corner so that we could have a critique session.

I know I wouldn't be happy at all if I were told I couldn't use the pool, or sit in the crow's nest simply because a group had reserved it. That's really not fair to those not part of the group ... especially since they probably paid more for their fare than the group members do.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[elmorejj]

Its almost as bad as being in the Ocean Bar in the afternoons when there is an art auction going on. Trying to have a drink at the bar, converse with other pax, then the auctioneer comes over and asks you to be quiet!!....at this time the OB was open to the public. I just gave him a frozen stare and carried on with my conversation......jean :cool:

[sail7seas]

:D He actually asked you to be quiet!! That's a rich one!!


Do they now close off Ocean Bar to everyone else when they have their auctions? We have sat at the bar a few times if it was a rainy day and they had the auction going on. We ignored them and had our back to the group as we were on the bar stools. I didn't know that now we can't use the bar if they are in there??

[teencruiser18]

On our cruise on the Zuiderdam, the Intercontinental Pageant was going on. The Queen's Lounge was closed often, but other than that they were fine. I seriously didn't know about all the pageants there are out there. Everyone had their sashes on, and I saw Miss Junior America I think, who was only five years old, Miss Teen America, Miss Preteen America, Miss Junior Teen America, Miss Petite America, Mrs. America, and Miss America. And then they had them from most of the states. They were all very polite and didn't take over the larger public rooms or anything.
Kerry

[kruzkeen]

Last summer going to Alaska there was a large group of Red Hats. It seemed about 25% of the passengers were in this group. They are ladies of a certain age who, for the most part, wear purple clothing and red hats. Some change their hats serveral times a day. They were great fun. The only thing I remember them taking over was the gift shops.

[sail7seas]

On our cruise on the Zuiderdam, the Intercontinental Pageant was going on. The Queen's Lounge was closed often, but other than that they were fine. I seriously didn't know about all the pageants there are out there. Everyone had their sashes on, and I saw Miss Junior America I think, who was only five years old, Miss Teen America, Miss Preteen America, Miss Junior Teen America, Miss Petite America, Mrs. America, and Miss America. And then they had them from most of the states. They were all very polite and didn't take over the larger public rooms or anything.
Kerry

That sounds like a nice group to have been aboard the ship with you. These must have been some very outstanding young ladies. Presumably they are judged are far more than their beautiful, good looks.

Did you enjoy them being aboard?

[localady]

I just read on another board that Melissa Etheridge will be performing for an Olivia cruise on the Westerdam sometime next spring. I do not know if they book the entire ship, but if not, I would bet some of the HAL regulars would not be pleased to be cruising that week. :eek:

Please before you bash me, please know I am not judging, I have close family and friends who I dearly love that are gay but I am not sure that some would feel comfortable cruising that week. :cool:

[Odd Ball]

Duplicate Post

[Odd Ball]

Wow. Looks like Park West is not the only group.

Not having use of the Crows Nest 8 out of 10 nights because of this Irish group must have been horrible.

Getting kicked out of the Aft pool for a private party is another example of Hal not caring about their passengers.

[hammybee]

The OP wrote this almost 3 years ago.

Were your intentions anything more than showing that an accommodation for a group is not a new phenomina?

[bookworm0911]

I find it very interesting that HAL has been closing the Crows Nest to regular passengers for practically entire cruises evidently for many years. All the talk here has been about Park West and the email from Margaret ? at Mariner Society made it sound like closing the Crows was practically a mistake and a one of a kind happening. Not so I guess.

[Odd Ball]

The OP wrote this almost 3 years ago.

Were your intentions anything more than showing that an accommodation for a group is not a new phenomina?

I take exception to this. :mad: I see threads that are old, and posted to all the time. For example, that New York , New York thread was posted to recently and that is an old thread. I have not seen any rules about old threads.
My intentions are none of your business.

[O2B@C]

The OP wrote this almost 3 years ago. Were your intentions anything more than showing that an accommodation for a group is not a new phenomina?

Frankly, I'm glad this thread got revived. I have been actively involved in the other threads on this topic and did not know about this one. Seeing the post about the dance group was actually helpful, because there will be a similar group on my cruise and the info in the post was reassuring.

Since there has been a lot of interest in this subject lately, I think reviving it was a fine idea. So is pointing out that it's a fairly old thread, in case people missed that, but I see no reasons to question the reviver's "intentions." Why would someone have an ulterior motive if all they are doing is calling relevant information to the attention of the group?

[jtl513]

Why would someone have an ulterior motive if all they are doing is calling relevant information to the attention of the group?Is 3 yr old info relevant? (Some is, yes, but is this?)

But since the thread has been resurrected, it might as well be updated: there is now a way to find out about many (if not all) large groups on a sailing: www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php (http://www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php)

[peaches from georgia]

As someone else posted I think information that this happened at least 3 years ago, and as we know is still going on, is very relevant when Seattle seems to be pretending this Park West situation was all a surprise. :rolleyes:

[fcorey]

Is 3 yr old info relevant? (Some is, yes, but is this?)

But since the thread has been resurrected, it might as well be updated: there is now a way to find out about many (if not all) large groups on a sailing: www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php (http://www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php)

Thanks for posting the link, I hadnt remembered that one

[hammybee]

Is 3 yr old info relevant? (Some is, yes, but is this?)

But since the thread has been resurrected, it might as well be updated: there is now a way to find out about many (if not all) large groups on a sailing: www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php (http://www.wa70.com/hdisplay.php)

This web site is useful and can be found in a sticky at the top of the HAL board. It is important to note that "richwmn" posts information to this site, based upon what we send him/her. The 6/30 Oosterdam is a curiosity. A poster concluded, based upon something, probably the organizer's self promotion, that the group was going to be 800 strong. Another poster,who is employed by a cruise line, with many inter-cruise line connections, reported that the size was probably closer to 250. That's a big difference.
Who is right? I have no idea.

A while back, a poster got a lot of people worked up about a college alumni group, on his/her sailing. Everyone had visions of spring break. The reality was it was a group of about 50+/-, middle-aged cruisers who enjoy sailing together and do so every year.

There are two Jazz Sea cruises of size, posted. The organizer is a poster on this board and is up-front about accommodations and that is sincerely appreciated. The wild card is that the number is a projected number at this time. It's too premature to know the actual size of this or any potentially large group sailing 6-12+ months into the future.

And lastly, a group can be as small as 6-8 cabins and sometimes are nothing more than a handful of CC members who got together to cruise.

Every sailing, on every mass-marketed cruise line has groups onboard. Increasingly, groups are also on luxury cruise lines too. Occasionally, the size of the group means otherwise public areas of the ship may be closed off to non-group passengers. Sometimes it means the group will trump a dining time.
And sometimes, it means absolutely nothing. Like everyone else, I wish we knew ahead of time.

Cruising mass-marketed cruise lines means compromize. Those who do not want to compromize may not be well suited for cruising on mass-marketed cruise lines where the per person cost can range from $450- $4500 per person, for essentially the same out of cabin experience, exclusive of the perks, associated with suites.

[hammybee]

As someone else posted I think information that this happened at least 3 years ago, and as we know is still going on, is very relevant when Seattle seems to be pretending this Park West situation was all a surprise. :rolleyes:

There are threads/posts about large groups going back at least 5 years. Park West was not a large group. Harbormaster reported 27 VIP passengers or cabins were hosted by Park West, hardly the majority in terms, of passengers.

The contribution of the VIP's to the bottom line of this cruise was probably enormous and greater than the combined onboard spending of the rest of the passengers. ( My sources of information are within CC messages- not necessarily on this forum) I understand it. It does not mean I agree with the outcome.

For now, this kind of stuff is a risk of cruising mass-marketed cruise lines.

[peaches from georgia]

There are threads/posts about large groups going back at least 5 years. Park West was not a large group. Harbormaster reported 27 VIP passengers or cabins were hosted by Park West, hardly the majority in terms, of passengers.

The contribution of the VIP's to the bottom line of this cruise was probably enormous and greater than the combined onboard spending of the rest of the passengers. ( My sources of information are within CC messages- not necessarily on this forum) I understand it. It does not mean I agree with the outcome.

For now, this kind of stuff is a risk of cruising mass-marketed cruise lines.
I understand all this. The point was that people were questioning if anything 3 yrs old had relevance today. Whether it is 3 yr old info or 30 yr old info is immaterial and the size of the group involved is even more irrelevant. HAL/Seattle is trying to pretend this closing of a popular public room for PW was a big surprise to them and we know it has been going on for at least 3 yrs and I'm sure a lot longer. Everyone understands the contribution of large groups to the bottom line and the risks of mass-market cruising. You keep repeating that ad nauseum. It has nothing to do with the post put up today here and on the PW thread. I don't remember Sails saying she had had this experience, but maybe she will come on here or on the PW thread and tell us more about it. Regardless, it happened and the fact HAL does this is no surprise to anyone in Seattle. That was the only point.

[appletx]

The large group on the 6/30 Oosterdam stated on their website that they had reserved 50% of the ship and they also state that their cruise is sold out now. However, from the activities they list, it does not appear that they have reserved any of the public spaces during public use hours. They state that their group will be taking advantage of the regularly scheduled ship programs and will have their own activities during hours when the facilities are not in public use. Hope that is the case.

However, it would be nice to know of large groups in advance of booking. Some groups might be more or less compatible than others and it would be good to know what the atmosphere might be when deciding which date to book. I guess that would not be practical.

While I would prefer a sailing that was not dominated by one huge group, I am sure we will have a great time on our cruise!

[richwmn]

This web site is useful and can be found in a sticky at the top of the HAL board. It is important to note that "richwmn" posts information to this site, based upon what we send him/her. The 6/30 Oosterdam is a curiosity. A poster concluded, based upon something, probably the organizer's self promotion, that the group was going to be 800 strong. Another poster,who is employed by a cruise line, with many inter-cruise line connections, reported that the size was probably closer to 250. That's a big difference.
Who is right? I have no idea.

A while back, a poster got a lot of people worked up about a college alumni group, on his/her sailing. Everyone had visions of spring break. The reality was it was a group of about 50+/-, middle-aged cruisers who enjoy sailing together and do so every year.

There are two Jazz Sea cruises of size, posted. The organizer is a poster on this board and is up-front about accommodations and that is sincerely appreciated. The wild card is that the number is a projected number at this time. It's too premature to know the actual size of this or any potentially large group sailing 6-12+ months into the future.

And lastly, a group can be as small as 6-8 cabins and sometimes are nothing more than a handful of CC members who got together to cruise.

Every sailing, on every mass-marketed cruise line has groups onboard. Increasingly, groups are also on luxury cruise lines too. Occasionally, the size of the group means otherwise public areas of the ship may be closed off to non-group passengers. Sometimes it means the group will trump a dining time.
And sometimes, it means absolutely nothing. Like everyone else, I wish we knew ahead of time.

Cruising mass-marketed cruise lines means compromize. Those who do not want to compromize may not be well suited for cruising on mass-marketed cruise lines where the per person cost can range from $450- $4500 per person, for essentially the same out of cabin experience, exclusive of the perks, associated with suites.

I am going to chime in here just a bit. While it is true I post what others send, but I also have done some searches myself. Each person who has sent information has prompted additional searches based on the type of group that was reported.

I must also agree with another poster that said (in general) that the size of the group is not as important as how disruptive they are. ParkWest was a relatively small group but was very disruptive. Geek Cruises (who I sailed with once) is a larger group which does not get in the way. It seems that JazzSea is a (potentially) large group which at least attempts to minimize the disruption they cause, to the point of having some of their activities open to everyone.

It has been pointed out that almost every cruise has a "group" on it. Most are just passengers who booked together or through the same agent. For the most part we do not know these groups are aboard.

Thanks to all who have contributed, and I hope everyone has a great time even if there is a large group aboard.

Rich

[hammybee]

(Is that richwoman?) Anyway, I want to thank you for creating and maintaining the site, that is now a sticky on this board.

Just wanted to make sure that no one thought this information was the final word on any of these groups and would recognise that your time and effort is completely voluntary, based upon information you receive or gleam.

Some of the group web sites really hype their group cruises and make it sound like the event of the year. Some times it is, and sometimes not.

There are a few relatively significant group travel companies that are facing serious financial troubles, right now. They tend to charter entire ships as opposed to booking a large group and when they can't fill the ships, they have had to eat it. The business continues to evolve.

Thanks again for the good work you do.

[richwmn]

(Is that richwoman?)
no - short for my last name. I didn't think of the "woman" connection when I started using it and by now it is all over the net, so it would be hard to stop.

Anyway, I want to thank you for creating and maintaining the site, that is now a sticky on this board.

Thanks for the kind words.


Just wanted to make sure that no one thought this information was the final word on any of these groups and would recognise that your time and effort is completely voluntary, based upon information you receive or gleam.

Some of the group web sites really hype their group cruises and make it sound like the event of the year. Some times it is, and sometimes not.

There are a few relatively significant group travel companies that are facing serious financial troubles, right now. They tend to charter entire ships as opposed to booking a large group and when they can't fill the ships, they have had to eat it. The business continues to evolve.

Thanks again for the good work you do.



Rich

[mugwump]

The large group on the 6/30 Oosterdam stated on their website that they had reserved 50% of the ship and they also state that their cruise is sold out now. However, from the activities they list, it does not appear that they have reserved any of the public spaces during public use hours.

I'll be on the 6/30 Oosterdam cruise as well. In a previous thread a poster in the know stated that the group size is actually 225 and not the 800+ as advertised on the website. I can confirm that the large group on that sailing does number in the low 200s which is a huge difference and makes them just another bunch of happy cruisers and not the intimidating behemoth that we at first feared.

[appletx]

Yes, 200 is a huge difference from the numbers their group posted. I would guess that a group that size would hardly be noticed.

[hammybee]

HAL/Seattle is trying to pretend this closing of a popular public room for PW was a big surprise to them and we know it has been going on for at least 3 yrs and I'm sure a lot longer. Everyone understands the contribution of large groups to the bottom line and the risks of mass-market cruising. You keep repeating that ad nauseum. It has nothing to do with the post put up today here and on the PW thread. I don't remember Sails saying she had had this experience, but maybe she will come on here or on the PW thread and tell us more about it. Regardless, it happened and the fact HAL does this is no surprise to anyone in Seattle. That was the only point.

Peaches, I am a broken record. It's a part of my charming personality :)

I have read the same posts as you. I did not get the impression that HAL/ Seattle was surprised. It seemed to me Ms. Binnendyk punted for some time before she returned with a response and a feeble attempt to make light of the situation. I also do not think HAL/Seattle is in denial- how could they be? They created the situation. I think it then up to the onboard crew to deal with it. And as we know, the onboard management and crew do not have the authority to make it right.

The people assigned to handle the masses of mail that HAL or any cruise line receives, probably don't know any more than what someone within the organization tells them. This is common in most corporate cultures.

Nothing is going to change the past. We'll see what happens going forward.

[barbon2]

Group sailings are a concern to me also. As I have stated before, we were on the Oosterdam in December where there was a 600+ card group and the Crow's Next was closed for the cruise. Talk about dress code....the usual get up was jeans and a plaid shirt. I for one, DO NOT want to cruise on a ship with a large group like this again. We are booked on the Noordam for Sept. to Alaska and I have tried to research groups and have found a small bridge players group and a cake group which is also small. My concern is "will the culinary center be closed"? The cake group states that they can only take 130 because that is what the culinary center holds. I think it would be unfair to sail again on a cruise and find that the culinary center is closed for public demos which we enjoy because of a group. As other posters have stated, I have nothing against groups, and I am sure there have been plenty of small groups on all cruises I have taken, HOWEVER, I want use of the ENTIRE ship which I feel that I pay for when booking a cruise. I also see no problem in re addressing a subject a few years later especially when the subject is current.
Barbara

[hammybee]

Group sailings are a concern to me also. As I have stated before, we were on the Oosterdam in December where there was a 600+ card group and the Crow's Next was closed for the cruise. Talk about dress code....the usual get up was jeans and a plaid shirt. I for one, DO NOT want to cruise on a ship with a large group like this again. We are booked on the Noordam for Sept. to Alaska and I have tried to research groups and have found a small bridge players group and a cake group which is also small. My concern is "will the culinary center be closed"? Barbara

I remember your posts following your cruise, especially the "Closed for Renovation" sign that was put up, when in reality, a group was playing poker or something, in the Crows Nest. I am really surprised to hear that you are sailing with HAL again because I know you were disappointed with your cruise, on several levels.

We sailed on the Noordam in May. I wanted to be a part of the very limited Culinary Class but was told it had been cancelled. Given the class accommodates only about 12 or so passengers, I knew my chances were slim anyway, so I did not give it another thought. The reality was, as I later discovered, that the class had not been cancelled. Instead, it was held for a private group. It made me laugh.

I will tell you the cooking demonstrations were held, as scheduled, and were SRO.

I have no idea what is or is not going to happen on your cruise. If your are waiting for the other shoe to drop, perhaps you might be better off sailing with another cruise line, less apt to have a large group onboard. It seems to me that X has not been nearly as succesful as HAL in securing large group business. Perhaps, this will be a better fit for you.

Despite what some posters feel, I am not a cheerleader for HAL or even a loyalist. I sail almost all mass marketed cruise lines and have never had a bad cruise. I think the best advice I ever received about cruising is to sail the least expensive cabin on the best cruise line, you can afford, cause once you walk out the door of your cabin, it's the same onboard experience and food. I hope your next cruise, on whatever cruise line you choose is better than your last cruise.

[fcorey]

Despite what some posters feel, I am not a cheerleader for HAL....

:eek: no more pom-poms for you :) sorry couldnt resist, if it werent for people like you, Sail, Lisa Laffnvegas, revneal, bepfs and the numerous others here posting, I dont think I would have been able to get Michelle to step foot on another cruise. Our first, our honeymoon cruise, would have been our last. But after reading the good and bad here and all sorts of reviews we decided on HAL. There were other choices that we were considering, Celebrity, Cunard, and Princess, but HAL seemed like a good fit. The thought of groups never entered my mind until I read some postings here. Its also obvious that HAL isnt the only line with this problem, read the other boards and that will become apparent. I think HAL having smaller ships makes it easier to book a charter. We had a small group on our last trip, a medical conference for infectious diseases, you would have never known they were there. But no matter what, I think your attitude is the way to go, its your vacation, why let something small , petty. or stupid ruin it for you.

[hammybee]

Forget what I said about Celebrity being less likely to have a group. Here's a link to a post that talks about Celebrity closing a prime spot on glacier viewing day, in Alaska:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=575009

This must really tick off those passengers who practically sleep in the premium viewing areas, the night before glacier viewing day, so that they can stake claim to their window space. If you think chair hogs are bad, they are nothing compared to the dreaded Glacier Viewing Hogs. :)

[Moriah]

I've sailed on HAL three times (Westerdam, Oosterdam, Zuiderdam) and each time it was as part of a large group - we were over 600 people each time - or 1/3 of the pax on each cruise. We had two cocktail parties which closed the Crow's Nest for about 90 minutes each time, and the rest of our meetings were in the Vista Lounge during daytime hours when I doubt anyone else would have any reason or desire to be in there. It never occurred to me until reading this board that anyone was bothered by the presence of our group on any of the cruises. The only comments I heard about us were positive - from the concierges in the Neptune lounge who said they loved when our group sailed because the members were so friendly and happy, to the spa masseuse and waiters who basically said the same thing. Granted I never asked any other passengers for their impressions, but as I said, we never intruded on the public spaces so I think it was a non-issue. Would it be presumptuous of me to believe that the groups that DO intrude are the exception and groups like the one I participate in are the norm? I'm sailing again with the same group on the Noordam next month - we have about 500 people sailing - and I anticipate nothing but great times for every person on board, whether they are with my group or not!

[gizmo]

I find it very interesting that HAL has been closing the Crows Nest to regular passengers for practically entire cruises evidently for many years. All the talk here has been about Park West and the email from Margaret ? at Mariner Society made it sound like closing the Crows was practically a mistake and a one of a kind happening. Not so I guess.

I have to agree with this. The responses from Seattle did make it sound like a one time occurrence when in fact it was not. The wording in the responses made it sound like it only happened on 2 days not 10.

Many of us have experienced the Crows Nest being closed for a couple of hours in the afternoon for a group function but not closed at night. Harbormaster and Sails both had the experience of the Crows Nest being closed at night.

On Sail's cruise not only was the Crows Nest closed but the aft pool was also closed to the the regular pax at 2:00 on sea days. :eek:

[gizmo]

Peaches, I am a broken record. It's a part of my charming personality :)

I have read the same posts as you. I did not get the impression that HAL/ Seattle was surprised. It seemed to me Ms. Binnendyk punted for some time before she returned with a response and a feeble attempt to make light of the situation. I also do not think HAL/Seattle is in denial- how could they be? They created the situation. I think it then up to the onboard crew to deal with it. And as we know, the onboard management and crew do not have the authority to make it right.

Those in Seattle are like ostriches, they have their heads stuck in the sand.

Of course they are in denial. Read some of the responses sent to those who contacted them. "Don't admit the CN was closed most of the day for 10 days, and say the information on CC was wrong. " :rolleyes:

The people assigned to handle the masses of mail that HAL or any cruise line receives, probably don't know any more than what someone within the organization tells them. This is common in most corporate cultures.

Nothing is going to change the past. We'll see what happens going forward.
.
Because another corporation may have this problem does not make it right, nor is it a valid excuse. It is not common in the company I work for comany.

Making excuses for Hal does not make it ok.

[gizmo]

Because another corporation may have this problem does not make it right, nor is it a valid excuse. It is not common in the company I work for comany.

. Sorry about the typo (for comany). :o I meant it is not common in the company I work for.

[Golfette]

Richwmn, I have to hand it to you for your thoroughness and astute thinking in posting and researching the group cruise site. When I started reading here about Polker cruises (yiiiichhh, smoke, cigars etc.), I immediately became panicked (as is my wont) and started checking card player sites. I found a number of them, and all the cruises listed are on your website. Oh what a relief:D ! While we don't know the number of actual cruisers, at least we can possibly avoid those which have groups that sound troublesome. Another thank you for all your hard work:) .

[hammybee]

I'm sailing again with the same group on the Noordam next month - we have about 500 people sailing - and I anticipate nothing but great times for every person on board, whether they are with my group or not!

Moriah,
Some passengers have strong preferences about cruising with others who share the same values and behaviors, to the point that if they are confronted with differences, it has the potential to ruin their cruise. There is another CC board, for a different cruise line, that makes this readily apparent, at least for those cruisers who frequent that CC board.

The big issue, at least on this board, is closure of certain venues for all or the majority of a cruise. We have been told that this happens about 3X a year for Park West @ Sea VIP guests. We can certainly see that it also happens occasionally, when a large group is accommodated.

When this happens, passengers have to discover this for themselves, which really means that the cruise line, any cruise line, forgoes multiple opportunities to be honest about it. They do not tell passengers before the cruise and they do not tell passengers during the cruise. The lack of disclosure is intentional and misleading.

A cruise line knows that only a small percentage of passengers will even be aware of, let alone, inconvenienced by a given closure. From the cruise line's perspective, it makes no sense to inform ALL cruisers of something that they may or may not even notice because it opens the door to, what will the cruise line do to make it right. All of a sudden, ALL passengers want some form of compensation, a cruise passenger mantra, if there ever was one.

This practice is certainly not new or limited to cruise lines. It permeates the entire hospitality industry. This does not make it right, but it is what it is, at least for now.

There are many posters on this board who have taken many, many cruises on HAL and other cruise lines and have never encountered a substantial venue closing and maybe they never will. It does not happen frequently, given the tens of thousands of sailings a year, across all cruise lines. And only a small percentage of groups have the financial muscle to compel a substantial closing, of a key public area.

For now, it is a risk of cruising and staying at a resort. There is greater risk of lousy weather than being on a cruise when a significant public space is closed, the majority of time. But it can and sometimes does happen.

[barbon2]

Hammy,
I feel as though I must "defend" my posts here. I did post after our last cruise on the Oosterdam. Yes, we did have the large group and problems with the concierge service in the Neptune. We also had air conditioning problems. HOWEVER, I did state on some posts that yes, we would sail HAL again, I never said that I had a problem with the ships etc. I also posted in a thread how I wrote to HAL customer service and how they addressed my concerns immediately and were more then fair to us. My posts here are only in reply to the subject matter, that yes, we had a group problem, and that I was hoping that on this cruise we are doing in Sept. we hope to have use of all facilities. As I also stated this will be our 4th HAL cruise. Our Amsterdam to Alaska several years ago was wonderful as well as our cruise on the Maasdam to Canada/New England. The only complaint or comment with the latter cruise was that we did not care for a couple of the excursions we selected. We enjoyed our Oosterdam cruise, just stated some of the negatives that we encountered. When we vacation we tend to take suites, on the ships we select, that is how we like to travel. When staying in a suite and paying top dollar, you do expect the promised services from the Neptune or whatever type of suite service is offered. Again, HAL may not be our favorite line, but we booked it again, so I may not be a "cheerleader" as you are, but we still sail HAL. Again, I thought their customer service dept. was wonderful and that is one reason we are sailing the line again. Sometimes it seems when ANYONE posts NEGATIVES to ANY board or ANY line, there are some people who do not want to hear them. I try to post both the positive and negatives, and if you do follow these boards there were a lot of unhappy postings from that particular HAL cruise in Dec.
Barbara

[fcorey]

Sometimes it seems when ANYONE posts NEGATIVES to ANY board or ANY line, there are some people who do not want to hear them. I try to post both the positive and negatives, and if you do follow these boards there were a lot of unhappy postings from that particular HAL cruise in Dec.


My 2 cents on this is that the sole reason that CC is a valuable resource is that you get to read both positive and negative comments. While I think some are nitpicking, some are not and the cruise lines are wise to read this feedback because overall its a good barometer on how they are doing. Lets not forget, the poster is entitled to say what they wish. If people just posted positives this site would lose some value. Its at best a great resource for pro's and cons, little details, stories and many things that the more experienced cruisers can share. At worst its a a place to rant and complain (hey I resemble that remark :rolleyes: )

[Golfette]

Moriah, may I ask what type of a group your group is? I am merely curious as to the kind of group that can produce 500 - 600 passengers on a cruise. Your group sounds just fine - you have a great attitude towards the cruise population at large.:)

[hammybee]

Hammy,
I feel as though I must "defend" my posts here.
Barbara

Barbara, I am sorry if I made you feel the necessity to defend your posts. That was not my intent.

I thought I was doing fairly well by recalling something of your experience. Alas, I did not recall that it all worked out to your satisfaction.

I could feel your trepidation about your upcoming cruise and thought perhaps, another cruise line might work out better. Despite it all, the only thing I am a cheerleader for is cruising in general and I am fasinated by the phenomina of mass-marketing cruising, from a business perspective.

Again, I am sorry if I made you feel the need to defend anything. I sincerely hope your September cruise exceeds your expectations.

[Fuzzzy]

Some passengers have strong preferences about cruising with others who share the same values and behaviors, to the point that if they are confronted with differences, it has the potential to ruin their cruise.

What does "share the the values and behaviors, to the point that if they are confronted with differences, it has the potential to ruin their cruise" have to do with being on a cruise?

Are Mercedes sales people representing evil? Should the cruise lines not allow large High School reunions onboard? What about large wedding or family reunions?

Maybe, you are referring to your own inner confrontation with differences that has a "potential to ruin" your cruise. Do others "values and behaviors" really ruin your cruise Hammybee?

[barbon2]

Hammy,
No need to apologize. Believe me we all get passionate in relaying our cruise experiences. I go way back on these boards (even though the number of posts do not show it, due to the change in the boards years ago), I am one of the original posters to this forum when it was a small group that posted on AOL and Cruise Cafe. Believe me, I have been involved in many "heated" discussions over the years and even received a "warning" from our lovable host "Walt" over my opinion along with Parnami's on the Celebrity Boards. Parnami and I had some really "harsh discussions" that got very ugly at times, but we have since become very good friends and we even today we try to avoid Celebritiy debates. :) So sometimes good things come of different opinions.
So again, those of us who love cruising sometimes take things to heart, but we all mean well and only want EVERYONE to have a wonderful cruise experience no matter what line or ship they choose.
Barbara

[Copper10-8]

[quote=Fuzzzy;10554921].............What about large wedding or family reunions?.................quote]

As long as they're not Italian!:eek: :eek:





Just kidding, just kidding! Don't put a horse's head in my bed, please!;)

[hammybee]

What does "share the the values and behaviors, to the point that if they are confronted with differences, it has the potential to ruin their cruise" have to do with being on a cruise?

Are Mercedes sales people representing the devil? Should the cruise lines not allow large High School reunions onboard? What about large wedding or family reunions?

Hey, I am not defending how some other people react when confronted with different behaviors and values. It is one of the reasons why cruise lines do not release the names of groups and I think this is a good idea.

The active posters on the other CC board, I was referring to, tend to think of themselves as "family" and they do not seem to appreciate anyone who does not conform to their " classy" expections. Something as simple as group- passengers wearing name tags can set off some of the posters. I have not sailed with this particular line and therefore do not know if the active posters are indicitive of most passengers or not.

Groups come is all sizes and shapes and are individuals who have come together with a common interest. Sometimes that interest might be political, spiritual, lifestyle or hobby and there are plenty of passengers who prefer to not be in the same place, at the same time, with others who have different values. Perhaps they might be happier not sharing their vacation with 2000 other people and risking be exposed to differences. There is no greater democracy than cruising. All of our money is green.

[hammybee]

Hammy,
I go way back on these boards (even though the number of posts do not show it, due to the change in the boards years ago), I am one of the original posters to this forum when it was a small group that posted on AOL and Cruise Cafe.
Barbara

Small world. I too, go back to the very begining in the AOL Cruise Cafe days and have had an on again/ off again CC relationship, for years. I think I lost my post count twice, over the years cause it did not matter to me. I was not hammybee then. I think we used our AOL names or something, back then.

If you care to , send me an email at lyndouglasatsbcglobaldotnet and we can talk old days, off line.

[hammybee]

Maybe, you are referring to your own inner confrontation with differences that has a "potential to ruin" your cruise. Do others "values and behaviors" really ruin your cruise Hammybee?

Either I did not catch this last line the first time or you edited and added it while I was responding.

I embrace diversity in all forms including behaviors and values.It is what I like best about traveling, including cruising. Moriah was curious about why some are so down on group cruises and I shared my observations with her. There are thousands of posts on these boards, where upon hearing the common interest of a group, many posters show their own biases. As far as I am concerned it's their problem.

[hammybee]

Look what I just found:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=10554973#post10554973

Your messages imply opposition to discrimination and biogotry and yet your most recent posting, to the Princess board, implies that you have made a sweeping generalization about me, this topic and the entire HAL message board.

The real issue as it relates to the HAL board, at this time, is that sometimes groups are trumping individual passengers in terms of prolonged restricted access to otherwise public venues.

[Moriah]

Golfette,
Our group is Abraham-Hicks Publications. We have 540 sailing. A-H has sailed with HAL a total of 10 cruises now, this will be my fourth, and I have never seen or heard a single complaint.

[gizmo]

It never occurred to me until reading this board that anyone was bothered by the presence of our group on any of the cruises.

Yes, groups do bother people. Sails's post about the Irish group is a classic example. People were excluded from the Crow's Nest and the aft pool on sea days. Sometimes Hal bumps people from their confirmed dining times to give it the group. Groups can take over public areas and make someone not part of the group feel like an outsider.

Not all groups are the same. As others mentioned a group can be 10 people or 500. Sometimes you wouldn't even know there are groups on board, but other times it can be a nightmare.

I sailed with a group once. I think maybe 100 cabins were booked. Everything was negotiated with Hal. We had priority dining (we did not take over the dining room,everyone choose the time they wanted), 2 cocktail parties in the Crows Nest in the afternoon, priority shore excursion booking (This was before you could book on line. )

Hal even screws groups. :rolleyes: The hotel was included with the price of the cruise. When the TA negotiated prices and perks, the hotel was Pier 66. (Let's not get into Hal has the right to change hotels, because this was a different circumtance) After final payment Hal decided to change hotels. The TA raised cane and found the reason for the change was, Hal gave our hotel rooms to a larger group that was sailing on the same date but a different ship. This large group did not book at the last minute since the TA was well aware of this group when our cruise was choosen. To compensate for this Hal threw us a cocktail party at the other hotel. The people running this group, cruise every year. They were so angry over the hotel incident they have never booked on Hal again.

[sail7seas]

Yes, groups do bother people. Sails's post about the Irish group is a classic example. People were excluded from the Crow's Nest and the aft pool on sea days. Sometimes Hal bumps people from their confirmed dining times to give it the group. Groups can take over public areas and make someone not part of the group feel like an outsider.

Not all groups are the same. As others mentioned a group can be 10 people or 500. Sometimes you wouldn't even know there are groups on board, but other times it can be a nightmare.

I sailed with a group once. I think maybe 100 cabins were booked. Everything was negotiated with Hal. We had priority dining (we did not take over the dining room,everyone choose the time they wanted), 2 cocktail parties in the Crows Nest in the afternoon, priority shore excursion booking (This was before you could book on line. )

Hal even screws groups. :rolleyes: The hotel was included with the price of the cruise. When the TA negotiated prices and perks, the hotel was Pier 66. (Let's not get into Hal has the right to change hotels, because this was a different circumtance) After final payment Hal decided to change hotels. The TA raised cane and found the reason for the change was, Hal gave our hotel rooms to a larger group that was sailing on the same date but a different ship. This large group did not book at the last minute since the TA was well aware of this group when our cruise was choosen. To compensate for this Hal threw us a cocktail party at the other hotel. The people running this group, cruise every year. They were so angry over the hotel incident they have never booked on Hal again.


Consider this message to be stated with the firmest of intent.

The way you began this post implies I had some difficulty in regard to Irish Groups.

THAT IS NOT ANYTHING I EVER SAID. IF YOU ARE GOING TO CONVEY MY MESSAGES THEN CONVEY THEM WITH THE SAME TONE AND MEANING I HAVE GIVEN THEM.

When I have referenced our cruise where a large group of people (about 700+ on an "S" ship), I stated we were denied access to Crows Nest most nights of a ten day cruise. I also reference we were forced to leave aft pool on a sea day ONE TIME (not
DAYS as you stated).

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, please do not give the impression my problem with not having access had anything at all to do with the composition of the group. It wouldn't have mattered what it was the group had in common that brought them together.......it was the size of the group and the fact we were denied access to Crows Nest and one afternoon at the pool.

CARE should be taken when referencing other people's comments to be sure you are not misrepresenting anything they said. If you are going to say "Sail" (not Sails) said this or that be sure you have conveyed my meaning the way I said it.

[barbon2]

My My, SEE, how posts get out of line. I do believe that this original thread was in reference to LARGE!!! groups on a cruise and how it affects other passenger's cruise experience. I THINK what people were referring to as I was with a group of 600+ on board how public venues were closed off to other passengers. I do not think anyone on this board was being prejudice, I think it is a statement as to large groups interferring with the "regular passengers." Sure there are groups of 10, 50, 100 etc. on all cruises, but you do not even realize that they are on the cruise. Believe me, when 600+ people are on a ship and do activities together as a group, gather as a group and disperse as a group you do notice it and it does interfer. Here's another perfect example. We are cruising in Sept. to Alaska. We orginially booked the last week in August, almost a year prior. Upper assigned dining (which we prefer) was already booked, nothing to do with the new freestyle, was told there was a group on this sailing who had this dining time. Now let's say, for example, that we kept our original date, and the upper dining area was filled with this group with the expection of a few tables and we were assigned one of these tables. If the group is large and has speeches, etc., during dinner, were noisy and roudy, yes, it would affect my cruise experience. This is just an abstract example, but I think that is what many of us are trying to express. No, a few tables of families, special interest groups, etc. would probably not bother anyone or be noticed.
Barbara

[sail7seas]

I agree, Barbon. In the scenario you present, dinner would be ruined for us.

[kryos]

Sometimes, however, there is not going to be a practical solution. The senior crew was very nice to us and others who were badly impacted. They did their best to salvage a vacation for us. But it is true that it is very difficult to find out if a large group is booked. I hope that never happens to us again. It was not pleasant.[/b]
But, there is a very practical solution. If these large groups want to take over the ship ... have everything onboard catered specifically to their needs, then they have a very viable option to make that so. Charter the "dammed" ship! Kick all the rest of us off of their sailing. That's fine. Won't hurt my feelings in the slightest. Frankly, I'd rather get bounced off my cruise ... and have to reschedule ... than share a ship with a large group who takes over the entire sailing.

There's nothing wrong with giving a group access to certain venues that are generally not used by the public during certain hours ... i.e., the main show lounge for an hour after BINGO, or one lounge that normally doesn't see much activity during a certain period of time ... various rooms that are set aside specifically for meetings and such during the day ... such as the Half Moon Room or the Hudson Room ... having private meals in the Queen's or King's Room. Nothing wrong with that. I was on a group sailing once that operated that way. Other than one cocktail party the first evening of the cruise ... where a good part of the Crow's Nest was taken over for an hour or so by the group for that private party ... we were non-obtrusive to the rest of the guests on the sailing. We were a writer's conference at sea, and yes ... we used meeting rooms and parts of other public areas for our lectures and breakout sessions ... but those were either areas that were still open to other people on the sailing ... we only had a small section ... or they were entire rooms that didn't see much activity in the daytime ... they were specifically set aside for groups like ours. But we never took over areas like the pools or major lounges ... as well we shouldn't have been allowed to do.

Cruise lines ... and not just HAL ... should never permit groups to close off major venues to other passengers on their sailing. If they want to do that, then they just have to market their sailing a bit more so as to have enough bookings to just take over the ship.

I know I've yet to be on a sailing that is monopolized by a large group. But when the day comes that I am ... I'm going to become the GRM's absolute worst nightmare. And ... trust me ... I am not a complainer as a rule ... and have rarely had interactions with the GRM on previous cruises. But I will not ... absolutely not ... be denied access to ammenities I paid a dear price for ... just because a group decides to hog them all for themselves.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[kryos]

The way you began this post implies I had some difficulty in regard to Irish Groups.

I for one didn't take your post that way at all. I understood exactly what you were saying ... because it's the same way I feel. No group, whatever their purpose or makeup, should be allowed to take over a sailing marketed to the general public as well. If they wish to do that, then they should move up to a full ship charter ... plain and simple.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[gizmo]

We experienced the same horrible situation that you describe on Ryndam a number of years ago when there was a very large group led by "Gertrude" (I'll never forget her or her name :( she was so ugly to the rest of us aboard). She had a large Irish group aboard who brought their own band for Irish Music. The people and their music were fine.

What was not fine was that for 8 our of 10 nights we could not go to Crows Nest. They threw us out of aft pool all sea days at 2 PM so they could have a private party w/ their music out there and too bad about the rest of us who had paid our fares to use the whole ship.....not just a tiny corner of it. They took over the dining room and it was impossible for anyone who was not in their group to have full enjoyment of the ship.

HAL should NEVER IMO allow a group to take over 75-80% of a ship and then subject the rest of the pax to such a bad experience. They should insist the group takes the whole ship.....or they simply do not sell the remaining available space to people who are not fully informed of what the situation will be once aboard. GREED dictates, as always!!!

I read sea days not sea day. Mulitple days are implied. Thank you for clearing this up.

For anyone who thought I was picking on the Irish, that was not my intent and I believe most realize this. (My mother was Irish :) ) Since the group was referred to as a large Irish group, I used the word Irish.

I did not imply anything in regards to you having difficulty with Irish groups. You have misinterpreted what I said.

[doone]

Not to worry Gizmo, I did not take any offense to your post, you were simply making a valid point about groups and someone's experience.

[sail7seas]

I read sea days not sea day. Mulitple days are implied. Thank you for clearing this up.

For anyone who thought I was picking on the Irish, that was not my intent and I believe most realize this. (My mother was Irish :) ) Since the group was referred to as a large Irish group, I used the word Irish.

I did not imply anything in regards to you having difficulty with Irish groups. You have misinterpreted what I said.


Glad to hear it.

I'm sure you wouldn't want any misrepresentation or misunderstanding.



Kryos.....[/B]

But, there is a very practical solution. If these large groups want to take over the ship ... have everything onboard catered specifically to their needs, then they have a very viable option to make that so. Charter the "dammed" ship! Kick all the rest of us off of their sailing. That's fine. Won't hurt my feelings in the slightest. Frankly, I'd rather get bounced off my cruise ... and have to reschedule ... than share a ship with a large group who takes over the entire sailing.

If it were that simple, I am sure they would fully charter and there would be no problem. The problem comes when they do not have quite enough to fill (charter) the whole ship. The cruise lines clearly do not want to be short 400-500 people. Therefore, the problem.

We all know the fair and unfair of it all.
The message seems to be that if they lose some cruisers because of their dissatisfaction with their cruise, it is a loss they are willing to experience. The profit from the group is large enough to warrant the loss of a few of us.

For the most part, they will not lose business from those of us who they would not have lost business from anyway.

DH and I kept cruising HAL and in over 50+ cruises, that is the only time anything even remotely like it happened to us.

[hammybee]

DH and I kept cruising HAL and in over 50+ cruises, that is the only time anything even remotely like it happened to us.

[/B]

Thank you for saying this. It puts the issue into perspective.

[sail7seas]

I firmly believe the most important thing we should try to do here on the BB's is to be honest, helpful and FAIR. IMO, it is only Fair to put situations and events into perspective when we have the experience and knowledge to do so.

Not to mention doing so adds to the needed credibility........

[Copper10-8]

I firmly believe the most important thing we should try to do here on the BB's is to be honest, helpful and FAIR. IMO, it is only Fair to put situations and events into perspective when we have the experience and knowledge to do so.

Not to mention doing so adds to the needed credibility........



Nicely said, S7S!:) - What's a BB?

[sail7seas]

Thanks, Copper...

"BB" = Bulletin Board (Message Board)

[Copper10-8]

Thanks, Copper...

"BB" = Bulletin Board (Message Board)

Got it, thanks!

[hammybee]

But, there is a very practical solution. If these large groups want to take over the ship ... have everything onboard catered specifically to their needs, then they have a very viable option to make that so. Charter the "dammed" ship!
Blue skies ...--rita

I hear what you are saying Rita but I do not think it's practical for most groups or any cruise line. When a company charters a cruise ship, the risk of filling the ship is transfered from the cruise line to the charter company.

When a charter company is unsuccesful in filling a ship, they risk sailing at a loss, sometimes a serious loss. There are a few well known special interest travel companies who are on the brink of insolvency right now, because they were unable to fill some of their charter cruises.

If a cruise line were to, by policy, not allow groups greater than X, in size, to sail, I think there would be a heck of a lot of empty cabins on a lot of sailings and some cruise lines would be at serious risk of failure.

Every cruise line is dependent upon investor capital, public or private. Every cruise line answers to its shareholders, in terms of financial performance. And most shareholders are not particularily interested in anything beyond a decent return on their investment. And those that own a piece of Carnival are happier than those who own a piece of RCL or NCL based upon 1 and 5 year return on investment.

[geoherb]

I hate when dead threads are resurrected. I wish there were a way for the moderators to close a thread after a certain amount of time with no activity--perhaps even as long as a month. After that, though, I'd rather see a new thread posted so I don't have to wade through all the old messages.

Someone could still reference the old thread with a link if they wanted to when posting a new message.