Noro on Princess

Hi All

Just an idea , what do you think,

As most Noro comes onboard with new passengers,

while not for the first 36hrs run the ship on full noro precautions,

Food served in buffet, no salt butter etc in MDR until diner of the 2nd night

yours Shogun

Sounds like a good idea to me. I am considering eating on the MDR for breakfast & lunch the first couple of days in hopes of avoiding the noro. Haven't decided if it will do any good.

I think food should be served in the Buffet ALL the time, salt shakers should be cleaned between every sitting at each table and butter should be served in individually wrapped pats like in many restaurants.

Hi All

 

Just an idea , what do you think,

 

As most Noro comes onboard with new passengers,

 

while not for the first 36hrs run the ship on full noro precautions,

 

Food served in buffet, no salt butter etc in MDR until diner of the 2nd night

 

yours Shogun

Great thoughts. Why not put the utensils and small paper packets of salt/pepper together in one wrap for the Horizon Court. This is often done in 'picnic packs' at vineyards and other outdoor events. Provides the quick essentials without having to create extra work for a waiter/staff to bring the salt and pepper packets to yuor table and increase their workload.

Just a thought to add on to Shoguns. Have a wonderful day!

Sounds like a great idea to me.

HAL has staff-only serving the first 48 hours in the buffet and mostly staff-served food all the time. That doesn't prevent an outbreak but probably helps. The downside is that you're in line for each item and all the 2-10 minute waits add up. You quickly learn to get cold items before hot because otherwise, you'll be eating all cold or lukewarm food. It can also be very annoying as some people wait in line while their spouse or partner is getting something else. Then, when it's their turn, they call the other person over (who usually just ambles) and when they get there, don't know what they want. Arrggghhh! Unfortunately, that happens a lot. :(

Here's a radical idea that might work. How about placing one of those black light machines at embarkation and at the entrance to all the restaurants, including HC, where everyone has to have their hands tested for bacteria. If any show up, passengers have to go back and wash their hands correctly before admission to the dining areas. Yes, I know this is radical, but it's a heck of a lot better than a few careless people making many others sick.

norovirus is a virus not a bacteria, so i don't thnk so maybe for certain bacterial strains and /or body fluids ( don't need /want to thank about that, ya'll) but i may be wrong .IF anyone has heard of a light systen to detect viruses I stand corrected, also it would only be on the outer skin areas unless they were to test mucous membranes (ie the nose) and noro can be spread via airborne as well. Seems impractical and costly as well, although the cost , if there were such a machine would offset the refunds!

Nutts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A few thoughts on the norovirus.

We were on the coral princess several years ago that had a outbreak of norovirus that the cdc said affected approx. 15% of passengers. It was a horrible experience for those that got the virus and for those of us wondering if we were going to be next. From what we were told a group brought it onboard the first day and spread it by going to the horizon court for lunch. Fortunatly, we had followed our policy of never going to the buffets the first couple of days.

We did learn quite a bit about the norovirus. First of all it can show up in any venue that brings large numbers of people together in close proximity. According to the cdc cruise ships account for 4 % , schools 4% and nursing homes 60%. This virus has been around a long time, but it also changes and the new strains are more virulent than the old ones. This virus spreads quickly and can be very hard to kill. Outbreaks often start when an infected person vomits in the corridor of a cruise ship. Tiny particles fly thru the air and land on surfaces. Even the simple act of flushing the toilet after a bout of diarrehea or vmiting can suspend more droplets in the air. The bug can also slip into the body thru food, water or dirty hands. Once it does, as few as 18 virus particles are enough to do the trick. From the cdc.---while many viruses are too fragile to survive long in the the environment, noro is encased a bb-like shell that allows them to live for days or even months in some settings.

Alcohol based sanitizers, such as purell, are not very effective against noro. Handwashing is your best line of defense. You should us soap, warm water and vigorous scubbing for as long as it takes to sing happy birthday--twice!! (remember this virus is encases, and to get it off your skin--it takes scubbing)

when we are on a cruise ship , we are very aware of santitaion. We have found a product that is much better than purell. It is called handclens (an alcohol free sanitizer and lotion) and can be ordered thru amazon. We have used it now for several years on cruises--especially after touching anything in a public area and before we eat.

So far we haven't got sick. Hope the above has helped.

My reading of the CDC info on Noro indicates that immunity is limited. Has anybody considered if once established, it could turn into a chicken-and-egg thing, i.e. pax infect crew, crew infect next batch of pax, who reinfect crew, and so on?

Sounds like a good idea to me. I am considering eating on the MDR for breakfast & lunch the first couple of days in hopes of avoiding the noro. Haven't decided if it will do any good.

Do they sanitize the menus?

Hi All

 

Just an idea , what do you think,

 

As most Noro comes onboard with new passengers,

 

while not for the first 36hrs run the ship on full noro precautions,

 

Food served in buffet, no salt butter etc in MDR until diner of the 2nd night

 

 

 

yours Shogun

We were on the NCL Jade out of Barcelona last April and they operated exactly as you stated above. It was my first time on NCL and I was used to Princess only doing this when the virus is present so I thought something was wrong and asked about it. I was told they always do this to catch an early outbreak from passengers coming on board. It made sense to me. Dave

A few thoughts on the norovirus.

 

We were on the coral princess several years ago that had a outbreak of norovirus that the cdc said affected approx. 15% of passengers. It was a horrible experience for those that got the virus and for those of us wondering if we were going to be next. From what we were told a group brought it onboard the first day and spread it by going to the horizon court for lunch. Fortunatly, we had followed our policy of never going to the buffets the first couple of days.

 

We did learn quite a bit about the norovirus. First of all it can show up in any venue that brings large numbers of people together in close proximity. According to the cdc cruise ships account for 4 % , schools 4% and nursing homes 60%. This virus has been around a long time, but it also changes and the new strains are more virulent than the old ones. This virus spreads quickly and can be very hard to kill. Outbreaks often start when an infected person vomits in the corridor of a cruise ship. Tiny particles fly thru the air and land on surfaces. Even the simple act of flushing the toilet after a bout of diarrehea or vmiting can suspend more droplets in the air. The bug can also slip into the body thru food, water or dirty hands. Once it does, as few as 18 virus particles are enough to do the trick. From the cdc.---while many viruses are too fragile to survive long in the the environment, noro is encased a bb-like shell that allows them to live for days or even months in some settings.

 

Alcohol based sanitizers, such as purell, are not very effective against noro. Handwashing is your best line of defense. You should us soap, warm water and vigorous scubbing for as long as it takes to sing happy birthday--twice!! (remember this virus is encases, and to get it off your skin--it takes scubbing)

 

when we are on a cruise ship , we are very aware of santitaion. We have found a product that is much better than purell. It is called handclens (an alcohol free sanitizer and lotion) and can be ordered thru amazon. We have used it now for several years on cruises--especially after touching anything in a public area and before we eat.

 

So far we haven't got sick. Hope the above has helped.

Another sanitizer is "Germstar Noro", which has been mentioned on another thread/post. It can be ordered on the internet, in the US, but Canadians need e-mail the CO, as the US office does not sell in Canada

I ordered and received some, but have not tried it yet.

First chance for trying will be the Grand in March/April, then the Island in June, and the Emerald in September.

I'll try to remember to give my version of possible success, after each cruise.

Cato

Completed Cruises !

1st cruise - Coral Princess, 19 November 2008, 10 day Panama Canal, FLL to ACA

2nd cruise - Coral Princess, 15 May 2009, 3 day Repositioning, Los Angeles to Vancouver.

3rd cruise - Sapphire Princess, 25 November 2009? 7 day Mexican Riviera.

4th cruise - Golden Princes, 12 June 2010, 7 day Alaska. (Golden Anniversary Cruise)

5th Cruise - Island Princess, 04 October 2010, Vancouver - Los Angeles, Repositioning

6th cruise - Sapphire Princess, 05 January 2011, 10 day Mexican Riviera. LA to LA.

7th cruise - Golden Princess, 11 May 2011, 3 day, LA to Vancouver, Repositioning

8th cruise - Sapphire Princess, 14 May 2011, 1 day, Vancouver to Seattle, Repositioning

9th cruise - Coral Princess 19 May 2011 2 day, San Francisco to Vancouver, Repositioning

10th & 11th cruises - Coral Princess 02 July to 16 July 2011, round trip Vancouver - Whittier Alaska, B2B

12th & 13th cruises - Sapphire Princess, x2, Cabins, 18 Sep. 2011, 1 day, Seattle to Vancouver, Repositioning

14th & 15th cruises - Golden Princess, x2, Cabins, 24 Sep. 2011, 1 day, Seattle to Vancouver, Repositioning.

16th cruise - Oasis of the Seas, 26 Nov. 2011, 7 day, Western Caribbean, Ft. Lauderdale, Ret.

17th & 18th cruises - Crown Princess B2B, 03 - 10 Dec & 10 - 17 Dec 2011, 14 Days, South & western Caribbean

Future & Hopeful Cruises !

( Already booked )

19th cruise - Grand Princess, 31 Mar. - 07Jun.0212 7 Days, Eastern Caribbean, FLL - FLL

20th cruise - Island Princess, 06-16 June 2012, 10 day cruise tour Vancouver - Wittier round trip.

21th cruise - Emerald Princess, 16 day, 10 - 26 Sep. 2012, TA, Copenhagen - New York.

I think the precautions are a good idea for the first few days-and-to be sure to report any dirty area, like a toilet seat to a person who can clean it right away. Short of not using that stall, the damage is usually already done.

I see no problem with using plastic tableware up in the Horizon Court. The turnover is pretty quick up there to make sure everything is sanitized, which brings up the question of the person handling the packages of the utensils. It goes on and on. Someone helping you with your chair, getting a drink, etc.

So far, we've not gotten ill. (I'm knocking on wood as I say this). We did use the sanitizer more this last trip in January, and didn't overly use the public restrooms, although they were too handy outside the casino and hubby used them quite a bit.

It's just being aware, and, as stated above, any group or family or person could start the ball rolling. I worked at a retirement home, and once it started in the nursing home area, it didn't take long to spread through the entire facility. Touch wood, again, I never got what was going around during all the years I worked there. Folks just have different immune systems,I guess. (and, I didn't work directly with the residents-I called Bingo, etc. in Activities)

Whatever can be done short of looking like an astronaut while cruising would be helpful.

Lynne

Hi All

Just an idea , what do you think,

 

As most Noro comes onboard with new passengers,

while not for the first 36hrs run the ship on full noro precautions,

Food served in buffet, no salt butter etc in MDR until diner of the 2nd night

 

yours Shogun

I'll disagree about the plasticware idea - getting sanitized silverware wrapped in towels by plastic glove-wearing servers seems sufficient precaution, and doesn't generate tons of plastic waste, including wrappers.

Awareness and self-protection is still the best defense, following the Ship's Doctor's recommendations. There have also been many times where I've skipped certain food selections after having seen how a previous passenger mishandled the serving spoon. Being served portions by crew sounds like a much better idea.

I was reading about this the other day, and a piece of "trivia" I picked up, also matches what jeaniem says "even the simple act of flushing the toilet after a bout of diarrehea or vomiting can suspend more droplets in the air." My info read that just flushing the toilet would spread the germs 4 cubic feet around the toilet:eek: Not sure if this is the same on board ship, with the different system, but it will make me definitely put the lid down before flushing from now on!!!

Hi All

I would expect the ships vac loo system would be a lot better than a normal water flush system.

yours Shogun

It's been a few years since we sailed with Celebrity, but the two cruises we did with them the first couple of days out they served all the food and drinks at the buffets.

I wash my hands constantly in our stateroom, but then I end up touching stair railings or the railings in the hallways, or elevator buttons on my way to wherever we're going. Once we reach our destination my only choices are to use the handsanitizers (which everyone claims are not that effective against Norovirus), or find a "public" restroom to wash my hands. Of course, during an outbreak we are told to avoid them, but if you use them anyways, you're faced with opening the door that someone who is ill may have touched.

It's too bad they can't scatter little freestanding handwashing stations throughout the ship, especially near the MDR's & HC.

Greetings

The self serve cafes are just one of many places where Noro can spread. Do you press the elevator buttons? Hold the staiway handrails? Open doors? Shake hands? Or just spend some time in the casino and watch the chips and or cards change hands. Are these sanitized at all?

I am not sure that holdng off on self serve would do anything but possibly delay an outbreak. If the virus in on board, it is very difficult to stop it from spreading unless the infected people isolate themselves. Even then, people could carry the virus and spread it to others before showing symptoms. So one must be vigilant in trying to avoid catching the virus by frequent hand washing.

Good Sailing

Tom

Greetings

 

The self serve cafes are just one of many places where Noro can spread. Do you press the elevator buttons? Hold the staiway handrails? Open doors? Shake hands? Or just spend some time in the casino and watch the chips and or cards change hands. Are these sanitized at all?

 

I am not sure that holdng off on self serve would do anything but possibly delay an outbreak. If the virus in on board, it is very difficult to stop it from spreading unless the infected people isolate themselves. Even then, people could carry the virus and spread it to others before showing symptoms. So one must be vigilant in trying to avoid catching the virus by frequent hand washing.

 

Good Sailing

Tom

Of course it's not the ONLY place you can get Noro, but it's certainly a big one, since infected people touch the utensils and other food and people generally don't wash their hands after getting their food, lest it get cold. I think the suggestion that staff serve you at the buffet for the first few days can't hurt, but it's probably a strain to get enough staff to do so.

The following is some research on "Germstar Norovirus" product

Cato

Which hand sanitizers kill stomach flu viruses?

Answer: Germstar®Noro

Washing your hands with soap and water is the best way to get rid of the gastroenteritis viruses. It does not kill them but it washes them off your hands and down the drain. But when you can’t get to a sink, you need something else. Regular 62% alcohol hand sanitizer gels such as regular Purell® do a great job killing rotavirus but are not that great at killing norovirus1 (they are better than nothing, though).

The company Germstar® has specifically designed a hand sanitizer that kills norovirus! It is called Germstar®Noro. It's active ingredient is 63% ethanol. So, how could this possibly work when the regular 62% alcohol products don't work very well? I contacted the company to find out. I read their ingredient list, read their test results, and e-mailed the scientist who did the tests. This is what I learned. Germstar®Noro contains an emollient complex that makes it work better. The phrase "emollient complex" probably sounds fishy to you (like an anti-wrinkle cream commercial). Basically, they have added some extra ingredients that make the alcohol work much better. They also did not add glycerin (which most alcohol hand gels contain). They found that the glycerin "protects" the viruses. I believe their results and I trust that Germstar®Noro does kill norovirus, especially since the scientist who tested Germstar®Noro (Dr. Syed Sattar) is one of the top researchers in the field. Germstar®Noro is currently only available to purchase on the company's website. They are trying hard to get their product in stores. I ordered some Germstar®Noro and I really like it. It is a liquid that comes in a spray bottle. It dries really nice with no stickiness. Like all alcohol hand sanitizers, it stings my knuckles in the winter when they are dry and chapped. Therefore, I usually just put it on my palms and fingers. I don't eat with my knuckles, anyway. I recommend getting the 2oz bottles for carrying in your purse and smallest bottle shaped like a pen for carrying in your pocket.

The makers of Purell® have stumbled upon the same concept as Germstar®. GOJO Industries has developed Purell® VF 447 (also know as VF 481), which contains 70% ethanol and polyquaternium 371. They found that adding this additional ingredient, significantly increases the products ability to kill norovirus. However, they are not selling Purell®VF477 to the general public at this time.

An EMT wrote to me and told me about a great hand sanitizer that kills norovirus. It is called DehHyze Foaming Hand Sanitizer and he said they use it on their ambulances. This product seems very impressive to me. It's active ingredient is Benzalkonium Chloride. One downside is that Benzalkonium Chloride has been implicated in the creation of antibiotic resistant bacteria2. It can be ordered here.

http://www.buyemp.com/product/11229871.html.

Internet rumors say that Wet Ones® Antibacterial Wipes kill norovirus. The active ingredient, benzethonium chloride, supposedly kills norovirus. Benzethonium chloride is related to benzalkonium chloride so it may work. However, I can not find any experiments that tested whether or not benzethonium chloride kills norovirus. If you know of these experiments, please let me know. I contacted the Playtex® company (on January 8, 2009) who makes Wet Ones® Antibacterial wipes, and they told me that their wipes have not been tested for their ability to kill norovirus or rotavirus.

If anyone knows of another hand sanitizer for which there is proof that it kills rotavirus and norovirus, please let us all know.

USA Today has an interesting article about norovirus & I learned a few new things about this highly contagious virus.

It can survive for 61 days in cold water & 2 weeks on hard surfaces. Raw oysters are the single most likely food to be infected with the virus plus other uncooked foods cleaned by infected water. I was unaware that the virus could be transmitted through water. :eek:

Also a vaccine is being developed but is years away from being available & will probably require a yearly booster. There are so many variations of the virus & it's possible to get the same strain repeatedly.

Nasty, contagious norovirus is 'everywhere' now

http://usat.ly/yrrT7K

From what I have observed on Princess ships on three cruises in 2011, it's the staff that we need to worry about.

I've observed them clearing dirty dishes from tables in the Horizon Court, and then turn around a reset a table with clean silverware without washing or sanitizing their hands.:eek:

I've observed staff in the Horizon Court remove unused tumblers from my table by setting them upright and then carying them by reaching down inside the tumblers to hold them. These formerly "clean" tumblers were placed on the "clean" tumbler tray for use in setting another table.:eek:

I've observed staff, after clearing dirty dishes, grab a handfull of forks and spoons and cradle the business ends in the palm of one hand to line them up, and then procede to set tables with them.:eek:

I've observed staff wearing plastic gloves handle soiled utensils and then, without changing the gloves, handle clean items.:eek:

In my opinion, Princess just does not understand the basics of cross-contamination.

After several compalints to the ship's staff and supervisors and getting nothing but the old Okey Dokey responses, I changed MY procedures to protect myself. I started taking my own insulated coffee mug to the Horizon Court and refuse to drink from any container set upside down on the so-called clean tabletop. I grabbed a tumbler of hot water on my way through the buffet line and dunked whatever silverware I find waiting at the table in the hot water after using hand sanitizer to clean it. And, I never ever lay my silverware on the table. :cool:

Next cruise I think I'll take some silverware and a napkin to my cabin, wash it myself, roll it in a clean napkin, and take it to the buffet. At least I'll know it was cleaned by me.