Concordia News: Please Post Here

Great...but that still doesn't answer why these officers and crew seemed to be struck dumb about Schettino's abilities and behaviour BEFORE the accident.

Do you think the present state of the Italian economic situation and fear of losing their jobs had anything to do with it? Not that it is in anyway an excuse -- it could partially explain their inability to question their master.

Do you think the present state of the Italian economic situation and fear of losing their jobs had anything to do with it? Not that it is in anyway an excuse -- it could partially explain their inability to question their master.

The country's financial condition isn't the problem here.

As with the aviation industry, I personally feel that it boils down to not wanting to step on the toes of the commanding officer for fear of belittlement, reprimand or being seen as disrespectful to that commanding officer.

There is an almost inbuilt sense of awe shown by officers who look up to their commanders and they adopt an attitude of they can do no wrong...even if it is plain and blatant to see that there really is a problem.

Like I said before, its almost like they see the error but refrain from saying anything to the commander cos they assume the commander will eventually realise for him or herself and put it right. The trouble is that it doesn't always happen and that small error snowballs into something much bigger and overwhelming...effectively out of control.

As to whether there was a fear of being dismissed if they reported a problem....yes, that is possible. Whistleblowers are rarely appreciated, often ignored and frequently labelled as a troublemaker which either ends in demotion or being alienated by their fellow workers or at worse sacked. So yes, they could have been fearful for their jobs and chosen not to say anything. The problem with that is when things go so very wrong that people lose their lives and those who stayed quiet have to live with the "if only I had spoken out", by then its too late and they are accountable in the list of causal factors whether they want to be or not.

[quote name=CostaSmurfette;34860777

hmmm...lets see.....Herald of Free Enterprise' date=' Exxon Valdez, Torrey Canyon, Monarch o/t Seas, Sea Diamond...do I have to go find a few more before convincing you that Schettino has not been the only officer to screw it up and in many cases cause deaths whilst their peers stand around watching their mistakes and say NOTHING???

.[/quote]

What you said - "He is NOT the only Captain to scew up...he is one of the few to get caught"

So we know about the ( relatively few set against the vast number of ships sailing the oceans. 90% of world trade is transported by sea ) above, they got caught, but your anonymous others are figments of your imagination.

We should be talking here about hard facts not speculations.

David.

To give an example of how subordinate officers often feel powerless to pick up a problem made by their commanding officer and question or correct it, can be seen in the accident involving Flash Airlines 604 back in 2004.

In that cockpit you had three crew...the commander was ex Egyptian Air Force, he was a war hero and treated with a huge amount of respect, also in the cockpit was a young First Officer and a training Captain.

The aircraft started to go out of control, the commander failed to realise what bhis plane was doing...the first officer and training captain both realised but said nothing, neither tried to alert the commander nor did they try to take control.

The aircraft crashed into the sea, killing all on board.

When the voice recorder was listened to during the investigation, it was noted that upon arrival at the airport, they flew into the sun and the firt officer was in command of the plane. The air traffic controller requested that the first officer report airport in sight...which he duly did.

Now...during the accident flight, the war hero commander made jokes about this reporting of the airport in sight, he belittled the first officer to the effect that it was impossible to see anything due to the sun in their eyes...the senior commander made the first officer feel inadequate and the training captain went along with the joke against the first officer.

Bottom line here was that when the crew realised that the war hero commander was not aware of the aircraft's behaviour they did not intervene...why?

The first officer had already been the butt of derogatory jokes, so why would the commander believe him if he had spoken out about the plane being in a dangerous condition? It was fear of being belittled again and as a result, people died.

Upshot was that rules were changed about sharing the responsibilty in the cockpit and never being afraid to speak out against the action of a senior officer.

What you said - "He is NOT the only Captain to scew up...he is one of the few to get caught"

 

So we know about the ( relatively few set against the vast number of ships sailing the oceans. 90% of world trade is transported by sea ) above, they got caught, but your anonymous others are figments of your imagination.

 

We should be talking here about hard facts not speculations.

 

David.

Unless you were present on the bridge that night, there are no hard facts apart from the obvious ship off course, ship hit rock, ship collected rock and people died.

No-one can yet fill in the spaces in that timeline with any sureity since the blackbox and other evidence has yet to be fully decoded and understood.

Room for speculative discussion, absolutely, but it has to be remembered that one mistake did not cause this accident....it goes alot deeper and broader than that and it starts alot earlier than January 13, 2012.....there has been a catalogue of errors made and missed...both human and with the ship.

That is why investigations take months to complete and often longer to write up the reports...it is never cut and dry except for those look in from the outside.

Hi Micki

Thats the site I have been following its journey from Croatia on, Have you noticed that if you click on the arrow on the ID box it gives more info on the barge.If you google Micoperi 30 you can get a photo and much more detail on the barge.

Hi Stan

I know nothing about salvage I'm afraid but the debate seems to be about the stress caused when they right to right her that may be too much for the weakened starboard side and she will rip open.

However the critics of the present plan seem to be lead by someone pushing a plan to fill her with some sort of foam and from that she will right herself. This foam is 60 times lighter than water ! I think they may have a financial interest in the foam application

I did goggle Micoperi because I wanted to see what the barge looked like. That is one huge barge!

I know the stress has been talked about so it will be interesting as to whether they stick with the plan or make the change.

To get a bit back to real news on Concordia, I hope some of you have looked at the Clive and Anne thread about the recovery.

The Micoperi barge is en route to Giglio.

Here is a link.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=34862112&posted=1#post34862112

I am not mitigating anything, nor am I defending anyone....your obsession is twisting what is said to fit your view.

 

What I am saying is that had his peers...who were so eager to be critical of him AFTER the event, actually opened their mouths BEFORE the event, we might not have seen 32 people die that night.

 

It's really easy to accuse someone of being a blithering idiot after the fact...if he was such a blithering idiot WHY DIDN'T SOMEONE...ANYONE..SAY SO BEFORE WE GOT TO THIS STAGE IN THE GAME?

 

Everyone who worked with him in whatever capacity stands with a degree of culpability for what happened aboard Concordia.

 

It is ces't la vie that only after the event that people then come out and say "well we always knew he was a fool"....they should have said something long ago, before he was made up to safety officer, before he made staff captain....maybe even before he made 3rd officer if his behaviour and ability was off the mark BUT NO-ONE SAID A WORD they just left him to his own devices and ignored it.

 

THAT is what is frightening in this who affair...grown men & women who are professionally trained who, for reasons best known to themselves, stood by and said NOTHING when they all seem to be saying that he was not able to carry out his duties and hadn't for some time.

 

Who as passengers are we meant to trust to take care of us if the idiot behind the wheel has no-one with enough balls to stand up and to stop him?

 

Why can you not grasp that Uniall?

 

Why are these well qualified and experienced officers NOT speaking out BEFORE we get this far....WHY????

What I can't grasp is that you find excuse after excuse to avoid demanding punishment for Captain Coward.

You now admit (but did not in your earlier posts) that he had many failings but, now argue, the real guilty people are the ones that knew he was a bad apple and did nothing. I could live with that IF you'd just say they ALL should be punished: Captain Death and Costa execs and officers, who knew but did nothing. But, you don't say that. You waffle and weasel out when it comes to assessing and assigning guilt and condemning and punishing the guilty.

It's the refusal to demand justice for the dead and writing it off with your cavalier comment: "C'est la vie" (That's Life) that I find apalling. It is the refusal to demand justice for the dead innocent victims who died in terror that marks the difference between the your neo modern nihilists and my western society traditionalist.

In street terms, your philosophers believe in the concept "S*** happens" while mine reject that concept demand the arrest, conviction and punishment of the personS who cause what "happens" to happen. Your "C'set la vie" view is so cavelier and beyond the pale that no one in western society would have dared to argue it a generation ago. But, it has crept into western culture along with the moronic concepts of "don't be judgemental", "it's not their fault", etc. and destroyed the very core, fiber and glue that has held western culture together.

To get a bit back to real news on Concordia, I hope some of you have looked at the Clive and Anne thread about the recovery.

The Micoperi barge is en route to Giglio.

Here is a link.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=34862112&posted=1#post34862112

Thanks for this SB. Interesting thread -- I like the link you posted to the tracking of the Micoperi 30 enabling us to track its voyage to Giglio. Wonder if Giglio news will follow the progress.

Also, in other news, Civitavvechia is one of the ports vying for the dismantling of the Concordia after she is righted. I believe 3 more ports are in competition, Livorno, Genoa and Palermo. Should offer a big, much in need economic boost to whichever port wins.

http://www.giornalettismo.com/archives/446091/civitavecchia-vuole-il-costa-concordia/

Thanks for this SB. Interesting thread -- I like the link you posted to the tracking of the Micoperi 30 enabling us to track its voyage to Giglio. Wonder if Giglio news will follow the progress.

 

Also, in other news, Civitavvechia is one of the ports vying for the dismantling of the Concordia after she is righted. I believe 3 more ports are in competition, Livorno, Genoa and Palermo. Should offer a big, much in need economic boost to whichever port wins.

 

http://www.giornalettismo.com/archives/446091/civitavecchia-vuole-il-costa-concordia/

You're welcome CT.

You are correct about the economic boost to the winner.

I hope the OP of that thread is right about the camera being changed so we can get a view of the port side of the ship.

Fincantieri yards! ... Genova = Sestri Ponti and Palermo my guess is one of these two will get the contract, having seen the two yards Genova is the more likely of the two.

Has a decision been made to Dismantle the ship yet? or are the other yards Livorno (not so big) and Civitavecchia just guessing? i wonder.

What I can't grasp is that you find excuse after excuse to avoid demanding punishment for Captain Coward.

 

You now admit (but did not in your earlier posts) that he had many failings but, now argue, the real guilty people are the ones that knew he was a bad apple and did nothing. I could live with that IF you'd just say they ALL should be punished: Captain Death and Costa execs and officers, who knew but did nothing. But, you don't say that. You waffle and weasel out when it comes to assessing and assigning guilt and condemning and punishing the guilty.

 

It's the refusal to demand justice for the dead and writing it off with your cavalier comment: "C'est la vie" (That's Life) that I find apalling. It is the refusal to demand justice for the dead innocent victims who died in terror that marks the difference between the your neo modern nihilists and my western society traditionalist.

 

In street terms, your philosophers believe in the concept "S*** happens" while mine reject that concept demand the arrest, conviction and punishment of the personS who cause what "happens" to happen. Your "C'set la vie" view is so cavelier and beyond the pale that no one in western society would have dared to argue it a generation ago. But, it has crept into western culture along with the moronic concepts of "don't be judgemental", "it's not their fault", etc. and destroyed the very core, fiber and glue that has held western culture together.

To be judgemental is a human emotion, when faced with a tragedy like this, it is perfectly natural to be judgemental of those who you feel are responsible...whether responsibly in part or in full.

At this juncture no-one knows what percentage of responsibility should be held by Schettino and no-one knows what percentages need to be held by others both on the bridge at the time and those who saw his previous actions but said nothing...thus leaving him to continue his behaviour that ultimately led to the deaths of 32 people.

Those same 32 are, like it or not, the result of the "c'est la vie" apathy...the usual scenario of things only get changed after people die.

Those 32 will have died in vain if the authorities, the cruise lines/industry as a whole, the ship builders and designers, the officers, crew...everyone...does not integrate changes that will prevent this type of accident from happening again.

Preventing another tragedy is what the investigators are primarily looking for, not just the causal factors and to apportion blame, they are looking to ensure that the 32 deaths are not repeated for the same or similar reasons.

Now....I totally understand your fixation on getting somehow even with Schettino, afterall as master, the buck stops with him regardless of who was at the controls or on duty that night, ultimately he was the bloke in charge.

However, at the same time that he was ultimately in charge, those around him on the night and in the years leading to the accident who noticed that his behaviour, his abilities and his actions were sub-par had ample opportunities to report back to management with those concerns, they did not do that, so Schettino continued on a path that was wrong, he was allowed to continue on that path, never once pulled up for his actions or questioned about his judgements made.

Therefore, as much as it would be a perfect world to blame Schettino alone, you cannot in all faith do that, knowing that others conspired to hide his past mistakes and conspired to cover for him on a daily basis.

By recognising these failures within the heirarchy on the bridge and the lack of communication in the chain of command and changing procedures so to allow whistleblowers to speak out without fear of retribution or dismissal, you will always have the chance of another Schettino on a cruise ship bridge somewhere, taking chances and risks and with those around him doing and saying nothing.

If you allow that to happen and you allow one individual instead of the entire industry pay for an ethos that is widespread and unchecked, then those 32 died in vain and will ultimately be joined by many others at the hands of unsuitable captains who should not be in the position of responsibility that they currently hold.

Hi Micki

This is the message I got back on Sunday night from Giglio News

Good Evening,

Port camera will turn in few days.

Best Regards, HS

Like you I hope they are true to their word, not sure what the italian equivalent to the Spanish "manyana" is

Best Wishes

Clive

Hi Micki

This is the message I got back on Sunday night from Giglio News

 

Good Evening,

Port camera will turn in few days.

 

Best Regards, HS

 

 

Like you I hope they are true to their word, not sure what the italian equivalent to the Spanish "manyana" is

 

Best Wishes

Clive

Let's hope it's not the next millenium! ;):p

Clive and Anne .. no idea what the word is either but it is Avrio in Greek lol .. :)

 

Has a decision been made to Dismantle the ship yet?

 

 

Is there an option?

 

David.

To be judgemental is a human emotion, when faced with a tragedy like this, it is perfectly natural to be judgemental of those who you feel are responsible...whether responsibly in part or in full.

 

At this juncture no-one knows what percentage of responsibility should be held by Schettino and no-one knows what percentages need to be held by others both on the bridge at the time and those who saw his previous actions but said nothing...thus leaving him to continue his behaviour that ultimately led to the deaths of 32 people.

 

Those same 32 are, like it or not, the result of the "c'est la vie" apathy...the usual scenario of things only get changed after people die.

 

Those 32 will have died in vain if the authorities, the cruise lines/industry as a whole, the ship builders and designers, the officers, crew...everyone...does not integrate changes that will prevent this type of accident from happening again.

 

Preventing another tragedy is what the investigators are primarily looking for, not just the causal factors and to apportion blame, they are looking to ensure that the 32 deaths are not repeated for the same or similar reasons.

 

Now....I totally understand your fixation on getting somehow even with Schettino, afterall as master, the buck stops with him regardless of who was at the controls or on duty that night, ultimately he was the bloke in charge.

 

However, at the same time that he was ultimately in charge, those around him on the night and in the years leading to the accident who noticed that his behaviour, his abilities and his actions were sub-par had ample opportunities to report back to management with those concerns, they did not do that, so Schettino continued on a path that was wrong, he was allowed to continue on that path, never once pulled up for his actions or questioned about his judgements made.

 

Therefore, as much as it would be a perfect world to blame Schettino alone, you cannot in all faith do that, knowing that others conspired to hide his past mistakes and conspired to cover for him on a daily basis.

 

By recognising these failures within the heirarchy on the bridge and the lack of communication in the chain of command and changing procedures so to allow whistleblowers to speak out without fear of retribution or dismissal, you will always have the chance of another Schettino on a cruise ship bridge somewhere, taking chances and risks and with those around him doing and saying nothing.

 

If you allow that to happen and you allow one individual instead of the entire industry pay for an ethos that is widespread and unchecked, then those 32 died in vain and will ultimately be joined by many others at the hands of unsuitable captains who should not be in the position of responsibility that they currently hold.

Bravo! I agree with you 99%. I could not have said it better myself. Except that I want all the facts before I say that Schettino should not have been in command to begin with.

David/Balf ... Until they get Concordia back to a yard and put it into drydock they will not know what damage other than the hole there is to the ship, there is a possibility that the damaged areas could be rebuilt and the ship used under another name.

Bravo! I agree with you 99%. I could not have said it better myself. Except that I want all the facts before I say that Schettino should not have been in command to begin with.

The problem the investigators face now in regard to Schettino's suitability and the risk that other Schettino like captains are out there taking equally potentially catastrophic mistakes is ploughing through his work records, his experience, whether or not past employment references were not only correctly checked but if indeed they were even genuine...

There are many cases of doctors, pilots, corporate CEO's that have fudged their worl experience and their references to get that plum job....and afterall, being a captain on a cruise ship does have it's glamorous side...its not all work and no play.

They will be checking his entire work history, they will doubtless speak to those who worked alongside him, right from the day he first went to sea...and, of course they will check to see if any complaints were made against him during that time along with what action - if any - was taken in regard to those complaints.

They do exactly the same investigations with aircrew in an accident, its pretty standard stuff.

Physical things such as eyesight....we know he wore glasses...that too will be checked out to make sure that the prescription he used was suitable.

Everything will be checked before they make the final decision about his suitability as a captain...especially under stressful situations where critical decisions must be made, this will be an area of great importance with this sort of accident....brain fog, spatial disorientation is a common problem under stress..you know what you are meant to do but brain won't engage and do it.

Every single person on the bridge that night will go under the microscope...how much sleep have they had in the last 24 hours, how much duty time, when did they last eat...all of this affects reaction times and how someone does their job.

The human side of the investigation is always difficult, complicated and generally takes the longest to complete. In one respect the investigators have been fortunate, they have a crew who all survived to tell what happend in the moments leading to the accident and thereafter, all too often investigators have no crew alive to give their story, so the fact that the bridge crew are alive and can walk through everything that was said and one will ultimately help the investigation come to a conclusion in regard to the human elements in the accident.

To be judgemental is a human emotion, when faced with a tragedy like this, it is perfectly natural to be judgemental of those who you feel are responsible...whether responsibly in part or in full.

 

At this juncture no-one knows what percentage of responsibility should be held by Schettino and no-one knows what percentages need to be held by others both on the bridge at the time and those who saw his previous actions but said nothing...thus leaving him to continue his behaviour that ultimately led to the deaths of 32 people.

 

Those same 32 are, like it or not, the result of the "c'est la vie" apathy...the usual scenario of things only get changed after people die.

 

Those 32 will have died in vain if the authorities, the cruise lines/industry as a whole, the ship builders and designers, the officers, crew...everyone...does not integrate changes that will prevent this type of accident from happening again.

 

Preventing another tragedy is what the investigators are primarily looking for, not just the causal factors and to apportion blame, they are looking to ensure that the 32 deaths are not repeated for the same or similar reasons.

 

Now....I totally understand your fixation on getting somehow even with Schettino, afterall as master, the buck stops with him regardless of who was at the controls or on duty that night, ultimately he was the bloke in charge.

 

However, at the same time that he was ultimately in charge, those around him on the night and in the years leading to the accident who noticed that his behaviour, his abilities and his actions were sub-par had ample opportunities to report back to management with those concerns, they did not do that, so Schettino continued on a path that was wrong, he was allowed to continue on that path, never once pulled up for his actions or questioned about his judgements made.

 

Therefore, as much as it would be a perfect world to blame Schettino alone, you cannot in all faith do that, knowing that others conspired to hide his past mistakes and conspired to cover for him on a daily basis.

 

By recognising these failures within the heirarchy on the bridge and the lack of communication in the chain of command and changing procedures so to allow whistleblowers to speak out without fear of retribution or dismissal, you will always have the chance of another Schettino on a cruise ship bridge somewhere, taking chances and risks and with those around him doing and saying nothing.

 

If you allow that to happen and you allow one individual instead of the entire industry pay for an ethos that is widespread and unchecked, then those 32 died in vain and will ultimately be joined by many others at the hands of unsuitable captains who should not be in the position of responsibility that they currently hold.

To be judgemental is NOT an emotion. It is an intellectual act that applies standards of western civilization to personal; conduct that have been accepted for several thousand years and presented by such lights as Plato & Aristotle (Pagan), Maimonides (Jewish), Thomas Aquinas (Catholic), John Knox (Protestant). Those accepted standards (referred to a Judeo Christian Culture) were engraved into Civil Law by Hamerabbi, Moses, Solon, Cicero, etc. etc. Revenge is an emotion but Punishment is an act of the intellect.

Your theory that a person who commits a crime and kills human beings should not be imprisoned if he's operating in a culture of incompetence is contrary to western law, western culture and western society.

I realize your theorists are attempting to remold anad remake western society but we're not there yet. But, you'd better be careful what you wish for. If you ever get what you want, you will unleash personal retribution and punishment.

Society owes a debt to the dead to imprison the guilty and you just don't see that. Shame on you.

There is no doubt in my mind that Schittino is either a Sociopath who has no feelings for any human being except himself or he is inherently evil. It doesn't matter which, he should be locked up for a long time to reflect on his criminal conduct and know he faces re-imprisonment if he repeats his criminal conduct after release.

To be judgemental is NOT an emotion. It is an intellectual act that applies standards of western civilization to personal; conduct that have been accepted for several thousand years and presented by such lights as Plato & Aristotle (Pagan), Maimonides (Jewish), Thomas Aquinas (Catholic), John Knox (Protestant). Those accepted standards (referred to a Judeo Christian Culture) were engraved into Civil Law by Hamerabbi, Moses, Solon, Cicero, etc. etc. Revenge is an emotion but Punishment is an act of the intellect.

 

Your theory that a person who commits a crime and kills human beings should not be imprisoned if he's operating in a culture of incompetence is contrary to western law, western culture and western society.

 

I realize your theorists are attempting to remold anad remake western society but we're not there yet. But, you'd better be careful what you wish for. If you ever get what you want, you will unleash personal retribution and punishment.

 

Society owes a debt to the dead to imprison the guilty and you just don't see that. Shame on you.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Schittino is either a Sociopath who has no feelings for any human being except himself or he is inherently evil. It doesn't matter which, he should be locked up for a long time to reflect on his criminal conduct and know he faces re-imprisonment if he repeats his criminal conduct after release.

OK...let me ask you this....hypothetically speaking...

Putting your unbiased, prosecutorial hat on for the moment.

You are faced with an accident similar to this one with a multi-faceted set of reasons (human & mechanical/technological without a greater blame on any one facet) with a report provided to you by the investigators.

The coroner/judge has set aside a verdict of death by misadventure and/or accidental death against all who perished.

What is your legal stance on a misadventure or accidental death finding against the "human elements" that contributed to the accident?

OK...let me ask you this....hypothetically speaking...

 

Putting your unbiased, prosecutorial hat on for the moment.

 

You are faced with an accident similar to this one with a multi-faceted set of reasons (human & mechanical/technological without a greater blame on any one facet) with a report provided to you by the investigators.

 

The coroner/judge has set aside a verdict of death by misadventure and/or accidental death against all who perished.

 

What is your legal stance on a misadventure or accidental death finding against the "human elements" that contributed to the accident?

Coroner verdicts have no legal affect on the investigation and prosecution of criminal acts. In fact, the very term Coroner comes from the Olde English "Crowner" who was to keep track of all deaths in each Shire (County) to make sure the King received the estate taxes. When Crowners started pocketing the money the King created another post to keep tabs on the Crowner. The new position was the King's Shire Reeve which we now call Sheriff.

The sole question is whether any person violated the criminal law and caused the death of another. The criminal act doesn't have to be the sole or primary cause of death. It is sufficient to show the defendant's acts were illegal and were one of the causes of death. That's why a participant in a robbery can be charged with murder if the police kill one of his confederates during a robbery. It even applies to the unarmed get away driver waiting outside (felony murder rule). This Coroner's verdicts have little or no affect on the answering these questions and are an anachorism to former times. In recent times, Coroner vericts have been used to force a police investigation of a death when the police are doing nothing but can't be used to end an investigarion or prosecution.

That question is the sole province of criminal investigators, prosecutors and the courts. That's why many US jurisdictions have abolished the office of Coroner and replaced it with Medical Examiners who merely act as scientific investigators working under the police and prosecutors.

Coroner verdicts have no legal affect on the investigation and prosecution of criminal acts. In fact, the very term Coroner comes from the Olde English "Crowner" who was to keep track of all deaths in each Shire (County) to make sure the King received the estate taxes. When Crowners started pocketing the money the King created another post to keep tabs on the Crowner. The new position was the King's Shire Reeve which we now call Sheriff.

 

The sole question is whether any person violated the criminal law and caused the death of another. Coroner's verdicts have little or no affect on the answering that question.

 

That question is soley the province of criminal investigators, prosecutors and the courts. That's why many US jurisdictions have abolished the office of Coroner and replaced it with Medical Examiners who merely act as scientific investigators working under the police and prosecutors.

C'mon...play along....no legal system in itself is inferior to another, they all generally seek to gain justice for victims...its all the same means to an end...right/wrong...conviction & punishment against aquittal or in some cases conditional discharge...

The investigation finds that it is death by misadventure and/or accidental death due to a combination of several causes, not any one individual reason cited as the primary cause.

(This has happened a few times on both sides of the Atlantic, so it is conceivable that at the end of the Concordia investigation, the findings could potentially conclude with misadventure and/or accidental death for all 32 victims)

How, as a prosecutor would you proceed?

Simple enough question really...would you accept the findings and not go for any formal proceedings against the "defendants" or would you be gunning for them irrespective of the misadventure or accidental death conclusions?

(By the same token, what would your stance be if you represented one or more of the "defendants" as their legal counsel?)

I am trying to figure out where your mindset is with all this...especially since no-one is presumed guilty unless actually found to be so by a jury and substantial & forensically verified evidence.

C'mon...play along....no legal system in itself is inferior to another, they all generally seek to gain justice for victims...its all the same means to an end...right/wrong...conviction & punishment against aquittal or in some cases conditional discharge...

 

The investigation finds that it is death by misadventure and/or accidental death due to a combination of several causes, not any one individual reason cited as the primary cause.

 

(This has happened a few times on both sides of the Atlantic, so it is conceivable that at the end of the Concordia investigation, the findings could potentially conclude with misadventure and/or accidental death for all 32 victims)

 

How, as a prosecutor would you proceed?

 

Simple enough question really...would you accept the findings and not go for any formal proceedings against the "defendants" or would you be gunning for them irrespective of the misadventure or accidental death conclusions?

 

(By the same token, what would your stance be if you represented one or more of the "defendants" as their legal counsel?)

 

I am trying to figure out where your mindset is with all this...especially since no-one is presumed guilty unless actually found to be so by a jury and substantial & forensically verified evidence.

I can't "play along" when your premise is contrary to law. Coroner's verdicts have NO affect on Criminal Investigations and Prosecutions. I explained all that in my prior post but you edited those out when you quoted me. So,I think I'll repost them.

The criminal act doesn't have to be the sole or primary cause of death. It is sufficient to show the defendant's acts were illegal and were one of the causes of death. That's why a participant in a robbery can be charged with murder if the police kill one of his confederates during a robbery. It even applies to the unarmed get away driver waiting outside (felony murder rule). This Coroner's verdicts have little or no affect on the answering these questions and are an anachorism to former times. In recent times, Coroner vericts have been used to force a police investigation of a death when the police are doing nothing but can't be used to end an investigarion or prosecution.

Based upon my legal education, training and experience I know I could grab any 12 people off the street and put them in the box and send Captain Death for an all expense paid vacation for at least a decade.

Do you want me to get you some law shool applications, so you might learn these things in a few years?

Just learned that the Tug Snipe is arriving with Micopiri 30 in the morning.

Looks like its going to get very crowded around Concordia.