Woman Attacked/Raped On Nieuw Amsterdam

I'm not quite sure why you quoted me, since my use of "alleged" referred to what the crew member claims the victim said to him when he knocked on the door, and NOT to whether he did what he has confessed to have done. I'm familiar with the American legal system and I certainly understand the presumption of innocence and the requirement for an attorney.

:) I was attempting to quote you only as to where you told us your profession.

The legal system of the United States. His court appearance yesterday was in Federal Court in Ft. Lauderdale, Fl

Thanks, Copper.

I didn't know he had yet appeared in court.

That was our waiter on the NA back in December. I am in such shock right now. Thinking about being on a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean with really no law enforcement or way of protecting yourself. A crew member who had access to our cabin, knew us by name, and obviously had homicidal tendancies... Imagine if my family or I had said the wrong thing to him! He seemed like a great guy. Very friendly. Always smiling. Very weird feeling right now.

Are we absolutely certain he was a Room Service steward?

I wonder if perhaps a cabin steward.

For press to call him room service steward, they could mean he 'serviced cabins' as in cleaned and took care of cabins. It could be a language/semantics thing. I'm not sure it really makes much difference which position he held.

Are we absolutely certain he was a Room Service steward?

He was our waiter for assigned seating in the main dining room at dinner time. I'm sure he had other responsibilities during the day which may have included room service, and thus access to any cabin on the ship, no?

Are we absolutely certain he was a Room Service steward?

 

I have heard perhaps a cabin steward.

For press to call him room service steward, they could mean he 'serviced cabins' as in cleaned and took care of cabins. It could be a language/semantics thing. I'm not sure it really makes much difference which position he held.

 

He was apparently delivering the lady's breakfast when he allegedly heard "those words". I believe it's the waiters who also do room service?

Thank you for the information Copper John and Aquahound....and thank you both for the work you do to help insure our safety.

Regards Colleen

A presumption of innocence disappears when the perpetrator confesses to the crime. After that it is just the discovery of all relevant facts in order to determine the right charges with which to ensure conviction. Sorry, I can not allow in my thoughts that there is any presumption of innocence surrounding this animal.

No, it doesn't. Confessions are sometimes obtained improperly and later thrown out in court...failure to be advised of one's Miranda rights, lack of an attorney or ineffective assistance of counsel, and excessive duress or even torture during the interrogation come to mind, or if the accused later recants. (NOT that I'm saying ANY of these occurred in THIS case.)

Here there could also be a language barrier since the accused's first language is most likely not English and even if his conversational English is excellent that doesn't necessarily mean he would understand legalese. (Heck, a lot of native English speakers have trouble with that!) So I would hope that there was a qualified interpreter with the accused (unless he waived the option) so that any confession can't be thrown out on lack of comprehension grounds.

The presumption of innocence will attach until a verdict is rendered...whether that's via a guilty or no contest plea or a jury or bench trial.

And please, I hope no one takes ANY of what I've written as a defense of the accused. I'm merely pointing out objectively some of the issues that might be involved.

Are we absolutely certain he was a Room Service steward?

 

I have heard perhaps a cabin steward.

For press to call him room service steward, they could mean he 'serviced cabins' as in cleaned and took care of cabins. It could be a language/semantics thing. I'm not sure it really makes much difference which position he held.

 

[/quote

There doesn't appear to be any doubt he delivered her breakfast that morning, according to the FBI, which supposedly is when this all started. Do cabin stewards ever deliver room service in the morning when they are busy getting ready for their long day in the cabins? Since he also has been identified as a waiter by another poster it seems likely he was doubly as a room service steward when not waiting tables.

He was our waiter for assigned seating in the main dining room at dinner time. I'm sure he had other responsibilities during the day which may have included room service, and thus access to any cabin on the ship, no?

Maybe but Room Service on HAL ships is 24/7. IF he was a room service steward, his hours might not be just be MDR/Lido service hours.

For those saying hal has no responsibility, that is flat out legally wrong. There may not have been an awareness of this person's predisposition to these awful acts, but liability does not end there. As a lawyer if I were defending this woman I would go after the negligence of hal with regard to their key distribution system, never should anyone but mgr level or above have master keys. Security should be monitoring when and why master keys are used. To give them to room service or even room stewards is in fact negligent as it raises the level of predictability that something like this happens. If a crew member can hop from balcony to balcony on the outside of a ship, then again anyone could do the same, and that becomes potential negligence by hal not designing something to prevent this. eg another few inches of protruding steel as a barrier between the balconies.

A ship's primary responsibilty is passenger safety, NOT giving us a fun cruise -no different than flight attendants are responsible for safety, not serving drinks.

Ships make cost cuts, staff cuts, short cuts and that increases the risk of these events, ie negligence!

Now can every circumstance be foreseen or prevented? of course not. But negligence looks at more likely than not. If it is even 1% more likely it could occur it is negligence. Maybe the one positive thing that will come out of this is cruiselines will look at this issue and revisit all aspects of ship security

 

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I must say, I disagree with most of the points you make.

In the hospitality industry, it is usual and customary for people to have access to your room, for instance, the cleaning staff has access to your hotel room. Now, I am not entirely sure why a room service waiter needs to have access, but if it is usual and customary for room service staff to pick up trays on cruises, then there is a case to be made there.

The man didn't enter by going from balcony to balcony -- he tried to escape that way, and was not successful. Given that, on almost all the cruises I've been on, the partition extends all the way to the railing, the only way that could be remedied would be to completely do away with all balconies. I don't think that is a reasonable remedy, and it certainly isn't one that most people would like. Heck, I could see an alternative situation where they change the configuration so there is no possible way to move from one balcony to other, and then a fire occurs in a cabin, blocking the door, and they get sued because they made that alteration!

I'm not sure which cost cuts you believe to be the cause of this; there would need to be a causal factor demonstrated.

Of course, as I said, the cruise line *will* provide her with money. (1) It would be bad for PR for them not to (2) it is cheaper than going to court, win or not (3) sympathy often plays a role in these types of civil suits, so whether there was merit or not, there would be a possibility that she would win and (4) I have to think that the powers that be really *do* feel badly about this, and while they understand that money won't make it all better, it is really the only thing they can offer beyond their well-wishes.

Nevertheless, unless something comes to light that we haven't heard about yet (for instance, that there were previous bad acts committed by the man that they knew about, or that he wasn't supposed to have access to the keys, but their system made it easily available to him) I don't see where HAL is legally responsible.

The world has danger and bad people in it. We assume some level of risk simply by breathing -- we could stay barricaded in our homes our entire lives, and someone could still get in and do us harm. I, for one, am not willing to live my life through fear. As I mentioned, I survived a sexual assault. I know what that is like, although my injuries were not as life-threatening as this woman's. But, I made the decision long ago that the perpetrator would not take the *rest* of my life from me.

I don't want to live in fear, and I won't. If a cruise line chooses, based on something like this, to take away all the balconies, stop cabin service, and stop room service, I won't be sailing with them.

I t makes one wonder if some of those passengers who have mysteriously disappeared and then deemed desperate souls were actually victims of a crime....beating /raping or in anyway accosting a passenger male or female within the confines of a ship (no where to flee) would certainly put a crew member or fellow passenger for that matter, in a great deal of jeopardy,perhaps silencing their victim permanently by using an ocean as an accomplice isn't so far fetched.

What a scary thought:eek: You've made a very good point, numerous relatives have said their missing loved one was happy and would never have jumped overboard.

Wonder if any of the authorities have searched for a common denominator?

Legal concepts are for the courtroom. There is no reason whatsoever in a public forum for anybody to use the word alleged to describe the crimes. And his confession can be accepted in public discourse for exactly that. Whether it stands in court is immaterial to our discussion.

Also, there are posters who believe other posters are blaming the victim. I have read the whole thread and contend not one blamed the victim. All I see are people pointing out how absurd it is to take the victim's words as alleged by the perpetrator as a reason to assault her. (Here I think "alleged" is appropriate.)

Also, I find it surprising that news reports are omitting the fact (if it is) that this occurred on a nude charter. If it was a nude charter, that should be reported, but I suspect news outlets are afraid of being accused of blaming the victim. So they are keeping facts to themselves. I believe all the circumstances should be reported. And we should be able to discuss the circumstances without fear of being accused of siding with the criminal or blaming the victim.

Here is the Orlando Sentintal (newspaper) article on the story:

 

Cruise worker admits he raped, tried to throw passenger overboard, feds say...snip...

 

He told agents that he hid on the balcony and fell asleep on a chair there. When the woman returned, he went inside her room and immediately began choking her and punching her. He said he struck her with several items, including a laptop computer and a curling iron, and that he used a phone cord and curling iron cord to try to silence her screams and yells for help.

 

...snip...

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/fl-holland-america-cruise-rape-overboard-20140218,0,7727316.story

We wish the victim (not alleged victim) all our best and that she can recover physically and mentally as soon as possible.

While this entire incident is extremely disturbing, the part I've underlined above stands out. Falling asleep out on his victim's balcony isn't something an agitated person would do. This strikes me as the actions of someone entirely comfortable with what he is doing, or plans to do.

I find the implications by some here that the type of charter could have any bearing upon the crime (again, not alleged crime) reprehensible.

Please post further discussion on this thread:

Cruise Passenger Assaulted on Holland America Cruise Ship