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  #101  
Old April 25th, 2012, 08:12 PM
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My bet is, the ship will be floated, towed and will sink during the tow.
Any takers.
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  #102  
Old April 25th, 2012, 11:55 PM
pseudochicken pseudochicken is offline
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Exclamation Noooo... Concordia will be more difficult than the Normandie

Quote:
Originally Posted by loubetti View Post
"The stricken cruise liner Costa Concordia is to be righted and refloated in what will be the biggest operation of its kind ever seen.

Baloney!

This was the biggest.



Concordia will be "easy" compared to Normandie.
Ummm, the Normandie capsized in PORT. It would be way easier to re-right a ship in port with all the resources the port has right there, especially the heavy lifting cranes. They are re-righting the Concordia in the middle of the Mediterranean and NOT in a port.

The Concordia will be way more difficult and cost way more adjusting for inflation. (Obviously, not adjusting for inflation Concordia would cost even more by a huge amount).
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Last edited by pseudochicken; April 26th, 2012 at 12:00 AM.
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  #103  
Old April 26th, 2012, 12:00 AM
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Question Except the Arizona

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Originally Posted by loubetti View Post
Granted, while not passenger ships, of all the battle ships and others sunk at Pearl Harbor, how many were NOT raised and re-floated and put back into use?

That was Japan's huge mistake. The grossly underestimated the USA!
Didn't we re-float all the battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor with the exception of the Arizona?
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  #104  
Old April 26th, 2012, 12:09 AM
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All of the battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor were salvaged and rebuilt except
for Arizona, Oklahoma, and Utah. Oklahoma was raised but not rebuilt.

The Utah had been rebuilt as a gunnery training ship and had had several of her turrets removed and her anti-torpedo blisters removed prior to 1935. She was of no use in combat.

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  #105  
Old April 26th, 2012, 12:23 AM
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As I have posted elsewhere on these boards, the Normandie was neither the largest salvage job, nor was it done successfully.

First of all, the U.S. Navy fooled around trying to put the fire out without bringing in the New York Fire Department's Marine Division. The low ranking amateurs managed to flood the ship and capsize it at the pier.

Secondly, the contract to right the ship was given to Merritt, Chapman & Scott, a marine construction firm that dabbled in salvage on the side. (Please note: the Wikipedia entry is error filled and inaccurate.) They messed up the attempt and had to remove the superstructure to get enough room to operate. I do believe that since the Navy lusted for the hull and machinery to build a carrier that they may have been complicit in the butchery that prevented return of the ship to service. Since the experience of using merchant hulls for carriers had proven these vessels to be less than worthy for combat, the ship was scrapped.

Actually, doing a salvage job on the open seas has many advantages over trying to do one in between two merchant piers. The piers restricted free access to the Normandie and made her salvage much more difficult.

The Costa Concordia is much larger than was the Normandie, being over 112,000 Gross Register Tons versus 79,200 GRT.

Quite frankly, the techniques of salvage have not changed much from the days when engineers such as James B. Eads and Isambard Kingdon Brunel first started to attempt works of this nature.

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  #106  
Old April 26th, 2012, 06:44 AM
Tonka's Skipper Tonka's Skipper is offline
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We have to keep in mind that when the normandia was refloated, it was war time....very limited manpower and resourses, not to mention the problems and advantages of the 2 peirs right there.

The refloating was a complete success, except for the end of the war and the hull no longer reqiured. She was first wanted as a troop transport and later due to the ending war, the navy did not decide what to change her into. Due to severe damage to the hull she wasn't even considered to be rebuilt as a liner.

Today the skills and science of refloating wrecks have greatly advanced over the 75 years since the 40's. The early engineers were pioneers in developing the basic skills, however with the new matericals and engineering sciences available..things have moved ahead with great strides.

AKK


P.S. The Oklahoma was being towed to the west coast when she rolled over and sank.

Last edited by Tonka's Skipper; April 26th, 2012 at 06:46 AM.
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  #107  
Old April 26th, 2012, 11:33 AM
Q.E.D. Q.E.D. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudochicken View Post
They are re-righting the Concordia in the middle of the Mediterranean
Umm, the ship is beached only 100 feet from land. It's not "in the middle of the Mediterranean"
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  #108  
Old April 26th, 2012, 11:57 AM
Tonka's Skipper Tonka's Skipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q.E.D. View Post
Umm, the ship is beached only 100 feet from land. It's not "in the middle of the Mediterranean"

She is indeed grounded on a rocky coas, but that is a rocky coast is open to the ocean...it presents alot of weather and sea problems,

AKK
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  #109  
Old April 26th, 2012, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudochicken View Post
Ummm, the Normandie capsized in PORT. It would be way easier to re-right a ship in port with all the resources the port has right there, especially the heavy lifting cranes. They are re-righting the Concordia in the middle of the Mediterranean and NOT in a port.

The Concordia will be way more difficult and cost way more adjusting for inflation. (Obviously, not adjusting for inflation Concordia would cost even more by a huge amount).
Inflation aside, Normandie, while "smaller" was a friggin' ocean liner, with thick hull plating (very heavy). They had to cut the superstructure off to get her floating. Of course, that was with 1940s technology.

So, let's see what happens.
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  #110  
Old April 26th, 2012, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
We have to keep in mind that when the normandia was refloated, it was war time....very limited manpower and resourses, not to mention the problems and advantages of the 2 peirs right there.

The refloating was a complete success, except for the end of the war and the hull no longer reqiured. She was first wanted as a troop transport and later due to the ending war, the navy did not decide what to change her into. Due to severe damage to the hull she wasn't even considered to be rebuilt as a liner.

Today the skills and science of refloating wrecks have greatly advanced over the 75 years since the 40's. The early engineers were pioneers in developing the basic skills, however with the new matericals and engineering sciences available..things have moved ahead with great strides.

AKK


P.S. The Oklahoma was being towed to the west coast when she rolled over and sank.
Agreed.
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The late, great Regal Empress. One of the
longest serving passenger ships of all time.
...............1953 to 2009.....................

On board QE2 for the last trans-Atlantic
of the 20th Century, December 1999 & 2000

On board QM2 for her maiden trans-Atlantic
to New York, April 2004

I love to cruise, but my flying comes first!
Cessna 210N Turbo Centurion.

44 cruises since 1985 and I am too lazy to mention them all! However, I do own the Builder's Certificate to the the RMS Queen Elizabeth. A lot of good that does me! Ships sailed on: Costa Riviera. Home Lines Atlantic. Cunard QE2 & QM2. Premier Cruise's Sea Breeze & Rembrandt. Celebrity Zenith, Century, Galaxy & Millennium. Bahamas Celebration, and my favorite ship of all, Regal Empress! Cunard Diamond, Celebrity Elite, RCI Diamond (and I've yet to sail on RCI!!)
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  #111  
Old April 26th, 2012, 10:51 PM
pseudochicken pseudochicken is offline
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Question What does the salvage mean for the fate of Concordia?

I assume all we can do is guess right now, but is it likely Concordia will be brought somewhere for scrapping, will it be refurbished and reincorporated into the Costa fleet or any of the Carnival fleets? Will it be sold to a smaller line or to a charter group?
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  #112  
Old April 27th, 2012, 07:00 AM
Tonka's Skipper Tonka's Skipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudochicken View Post
I assume all we can do is guess right now, but is it likely Concordia will be brought somewhere for scrapping, will it be refurbished and reincorporated into the Costa fleet or any of the Carnival fleets? Will it be sold to a smaller line or to a charter group?

All of the above!

However, most likely due to the costs to rebiuld, which will likely be more then building a new vessel, and the history........she will be scrapped!



AKK
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  #113  
Old April 28th, 2012, 06:11 AM
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There appears to be a lot more activity around the wreck in the last few days and today on the webcam what appears to be a barge with a high "superstructure". Possibly there to do the piling.
Sadly no narritive update or the promised video of how the salvage operation is going to be carried out.
Clive
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  #114  
Old April 28th, 2012, 05:35 PM
mickey_d_mouse mickey_d_mouse is offline
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We are still being promised the contents of our safes back :-)

Wonder what they will do with all our wet baggage
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COSTA CONCORDIA - 5 hours Friday 13th January 2012
Costa Serena - 27th December 2011
Costa Europa - 7th May 2007
Princess Tahiti - 2009

Last edited by mickey_d_mouse; April 28th, 2012 at 05:36 PM.
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  #115  
Old April 28th, 2012, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nybumpkin View Post
Lou, I'm not so sure. Concordia is 30,000 tons larger than Normandie and is in a more precarious position. There was no danger of Normandie sinking in the Hudson River. Having said that, they did cut off her superstructure during the refloating process and I wonder whether that will be the case with Concordia.

I don't believe the measurement is the same so you really cant compare those numbers. Cruise ships tonnage is a measurement of volume not weight. War ships are measured by displacement by weight.
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  #116  
Old April 28th, 2012, 06:35 PM
Tonka's Skipper Tonka's Skipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo1098 View Post
I don't believe the measurement is the same so you really cant compare those numbers. Cruise ships tonnage is a measurement of volume not weight. War ships are measured by displacement by weight.

You raise a interesting point, but the Normandia was also a criuser/liner and not a warship.

AKK
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  #117  
Old April 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
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I do not speculate. I speak of things I know and that seems to be something that is getting lost in this thread the longer it goes on.

These numbers from Wikipedia look to be very much as accurate as we can get this far removed from the existence of the hulk of the Normandie.

Tonnage: 79,280/83,423 Gross Register Tons Displacement: 71,300 metric tons (approx)

Either way, the Costa Concordia is a much larger ship.

There are other major differences between a cruise ship and a North Atlantic liner, most notably the liners had much deeper hulls and were built with rather more of a vee shaped hull. Cruise ships tend to be slab sided and flat bottomed to maximize cubic capacity and to minimize draft as they trade into many rather shallow ports.

While there are many differences in the two hulks (a capsized or sunken vessel is not a ship, it a hulk or wreck) the basic situation is very similar. It will require an aggressive and dedicated company to raise this hulk and get her into drydock. Titan is such a company.

Here is some speculation. Presuming the salvage cost will be the 288 million dollars or less contracted and presuming the current cost of a replacement for the Costa Concordia would be in the range of 1.2 billion dollars as was the cost of the last ships of this class, then it leaves a large range of rebuilding costs to still make returning the vessel to service both viable and desirable. Would I book on this ship if it were returned to service? As long as it had a different Captain, I sure would.

Doc
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  #118  
Old April 29th, 2012, 03:37 AM
clive and anne clive and anne is offline
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Hi Michelle
Hope you are continuing to recover.
So pleased that they are promising to recover the contents of the cabin safes and return them to you. Many people would have sentimental items with them on the cruise and no monetary reimbursement can compensate.
Not sure about your clothing.
Hope you get a finality to this situation as soon as possible.
Best Wishes
Clive
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  #119  
Old April 29th, 2012, 06:28 AM
Tonka's Skipper Tonka's Skipper is offline
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The report on the contract was $288,000,000 to float the ship and envoramental clean up of the site.

The plan now is when the hull is floated, she is to be towed to *a* Italian port. I do not know if the cost of the tow in included in the contract as that would vary on the stabilty of the wreck and the port picked.

There is of course lots of details and conditions in the contract as there always is, we will just have to wait and see.


One addtional thing that has not been discussed, is that the wreck has be lieing on her stbd side and bottem, moving and rocking some what on a rocky bottom........seas and winds blowing......and will be for a long time yet.......it does present alot of stress issues with the steel frame and structure........Just what condition will the hull be in when uprighted......

We can keep going in circles on if the wreck can be economcialy rebuilt as a cruise ship or another vessel, or scrapped.....but only time will tell!

AKK
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  #120  
Old April 29th, 2012, 06:36 AM
Tonka's Skipper Tonka's Skipper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocF View Post
I do not speculate. I speak of things I know and that seems to be something that is getting lost in this thread the longer it goes on.

These numbers from Wikipedia look to be very much as accurate as we can get this far removed from the existence of the hulk of the Normandie.

Tonnage: 79,280/83,423 Gross Register Tons Displacement: 71,300 metric tons (approx)

Either way, the Costa Concordia is a much larger ship.

There are other major differences between a cruise ship and a North Atlantic liner, most notably the liners had much deeper hulls and were built with rather more of a vee shaped hull. Cruise ships tend to be slab sided and flat bottomed to maximize cubic capacity and to minimize draft as they trade into many rather shallow ports.

While there are many differences in the two hulks (a capsized or sunken vessel is not a ship, it a hulk or wreck) the basic situation is very similar. It will require an aggressive and dedicated company to raise this hulk and get her into drydock. Titan is such a company.

Here is some speculation. Presuming the salvage cost will be the 288 million dollars or less contracted and presuming the current cost of a replacement for the Costa Concordia would be in the range of 1.2 billion dollars as was the cost of the last ships of this class, then it leaves a large range of rebuilding costs to still make returning the vessel to service both viable and desirable. Would I book on this ship if it were returned to service? As long as it had a different Captain, I sure would.

Doc

With all do respect Doc, in nautical terms a *vee* shaped hull refers to a *V* shaped bottom. No liner or cruise ships I have ever seen or been around in Yards had any thing but a *flat* bottom like the cruise ships. This includes any I know of in the 20th century.

I think you mean a *long relatively narrow* hull on the liners, one with a long narrow *pointy* bow and military cruisr type stern, all designed for maximiun speed and to handle rough seas.


PS. I did a google ........the cost of the New costa vessels, same class as the Concordia.is $510 euros.or about $ 750 mil US.


AKK

Last edited by Tonka's Skipper; April 29th, 2012 at 06:43 AM.
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