No More Deck 9 Cookouts for HAL

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#1
New Mexico
4,328 Posts
Joined Jul 2009
Returning from a long excursion today, I looked forward to the traditional Juneau cookout only to learn that new health rules require all cooking to be done in designated/certified kitchens. I verified this sad news with the Lido Manager who used to be responsible for the outside grilling.

Hopefully, this only affects US ports.

The smell of salmon grilling over charcoal will now be just a fond memory.
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#2
4,415 Posts
Joined Jun 2013
The outdoor buffets were written up in a recent Vessel Sanitation Report for one of the HAL ships - something about not being close enough to a source of running water for server hand-washing use.

Agree, this is unfortunate. Maybe the newer ships can design the space to meet the sanitation regulations.
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#3
4,415 Posts
Joined Jun 2013
Here is the CDC write up for the poor Amsterdam which did not do so well on the last inspections :Score 86
(Other HAL ships did much better - all in the mid or high 90's - and several got the perfect 100 scores)

AMSTERDAM:
Item No.: 13Site: Food Service General-Lido Poolside Luau BBQ

Violation: A BBQ function occurred last on 25 November on the pool deck, which is not a food area. Staff explained how grills were staged next to a food employee-served buffet station. Although the area had a retractable roof, staff explained how this area is opened for the function since the function is done weekly and only weather permitting. This setup does not provide adequate protection for food and the nearest handwashing stations for the food employees were over 8 meters away.

Recommendation: Because of the risks for foodborne illness inherent to the food operation, ensure the supervisor or person in charge of food operations on the vessel demonstrates to VSP - during inspections and on request - knowledge of foodborne disease prevention, application of the Hazard Analysis Critical Point principles, and the food-safety guidelines in this manual. Ensure that the person in charge demonstrates this knowledge: (1) By compliance with these guidelines; (12) Identifying critical-control points in the operation from purchasing through service that when not controlled may contribute to the transmission of foodborne illness and explaining steps taken to ensure the points are controlled in accordance with the guidelines in this manual.
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#4
Burlingame calif
28 Posts
Joined Jun 2013
This sounds like the inspectors were really looking for something to write up and enforce. Simple solution is to provide a portable approved hand washing station. And roll out counter refrigerator. Having refit cruise ship galleys and shore side restaurants, I would trust food from a modern cruse ship vs shore side restaurant for cleanses.


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#5
Maine
10,784 Posts
Joined Feb 2013
Originally posted by OlsSalt
Here is the CDC write up for the poor Amsterdam which did not do so well on the last inspections :Score 86
(Other HAL ships did much better - all in the mid or high 90's - and several got the perfect 100 scores)

AMSTERDAM:
Item No.: 13Site: Food Service General-Lido Poolside Luau BBQ

Violation: A BBQ function occurred last on 25 November on the pool deck, which is not a food area. Staff explained how grills were staged next to a food employee-served buffet station. Although the area had a retractable roof, staff explained how this area is opened for the function since the function is done weekly and only weather permitting. This setup does not provide adequate protection for food and the nearest handwashing stations for the food employees were over 8 meters away.

Recommendation: Because of the risks for foodborne illness inherent to the food operation, ensure the supervisor or person in charge of food operations on the vessel demonstrates to VSP - during inspections and on request - knowledge of foodborne disease prevention, application of the Hazard Analysis Critical Point principles, and the food-safety guidelines in this manual. Ensure that the person in charge demonstrates this knowledge: (1) By compliance with these guidelines; (12) Identifying critical-control points in the operation from purchasing through service that when not controlled may contribute to the transmission of foodborne illness and explaining steps taken to ensure the points are controlled in accordance with the guidelines in this manual.
Originally posted by SFBayAreaShipLover
This sounds like the inspectors were really looking for something to write up and enforce. Simple solution is to provide a portable approved hand washing station. And roll out counter refrigerator. Having refit cruise ship galleys and shore side restaurants, I would trust food from a modern cruse ship vs shore side restaurant for cleanses.


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Didn't do well is an understatement. Any score less than 86 is a "fail" and warrants immediate corrective action.

Like many of these reports, the written description doesn't really cover the infraction, and unfortunately, HAL and the Amsterdam have not submitted a Corrective Action Report since this inspection in December, and these CAR's really show the detail of infraction and the actions taken.

I have seen many BBQ's on ships, and have set up quite a few. I suspect that the main problem was the open roof, combined with a possible lack of covering for the food, both in the prep (cooking) area and the serving area. It would also appear that the person in charge of the BBQ did not demonstrate sufficient knowledge of food protection measures like what kind of materials are allowed, how the presentation stations should be covered/protected, and how time controls are used for food safety in a service like this. The handwash sink is a secondary concern.

If you read the Amsterdam's report, you will see the detail that the inspectors get to with regards to both operation and construction of the food areas on the ships. There are a couple of mentions of "slotted fasteners" in equipment. Standard slotted or Phillips head screws are not allowed on food equipment that meets USPH requirements, because you cannot clean the slots or "crosses" in the screws. There are special fasteners that must be used, and this adds to the cost of the equipment bought, if it must meet USPH standards.

I'm not sure the statement that all cooking must be done in "designated/certified kitchens" is correct (not doubting the poster, just the person supplying the information). Provided the equipment used meets USPH construction standards, and the food preparation and service meets USPH operational standards, I know of no reason that an outdoor BBQ would not be allowed, though the USPH is working on a revision to the VSP, that hasn't come out yet.
#6
Raleigh NC
24,574 Posts
Joined Oct 2007
O' the horrors, someone may have to travel 25 feet to wash their hands!

Another example of regulations going to the extreme.

This inspection was done just prior to the world cruise. We were told HAL is looking at work around for future cruises but given the timing of this report, they were unable to do anything for the WC.
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#7
105,914 Posts
Joined Jul 2001
Sorry to hear that we can no longer smell salmon cooking on the open grills. Love that smell.


I think someone reported not to long ago that their cruise didn't have a poolside BBQ.
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#8
Georgia
7,102 Posts
Joined Jun 2004
Originally posted by KirkNC
O' the horrors, someone may have to travel 25 feet to wash their hands! Another example of regulations going to the extreme.
Second guessing accredited professionals doing their jobs is all the rage with the kids these days.



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#9
Victoria Harbour, ON
2,326 Posts
Joined Nov 2007
I'm sorry to hear this. We always enjoyed the pool side BBQ. Hope they find something to correct this.
Allan
#10
Burlingame calif
28 Posts
Joined Jun 2013
Originally posted by chengkp75
Didn't do well is an understatement. Any score less than 86 is a "fail" and warrants immediate corrective action.

Like many of these reports, the written description doesn't really cover the infraction, and unfortunately, HAL and the Amsterdam have not submitted a Corrective Action Report since this inspection in December, and these CAR's really show the detail of infraction and the actions taken.

I have seen many BBQ's on ships, and have set up quite a few. I suspect that the main problem was the open roof, combined with a possible lack of covering for the food, both in the prep (cooking) area and the serving area. It would also appear that the person in charge of the BBQ did not demonstrate sufficient knowledge of food protection measures like what kind of materials are allowed, how the presentation stations should be covered/protected, and how time controls are used for food safety in a service like this. The handwash sink is a secondary concern.

If you read the Amsterdam's report, you will see the detail that the inspectors get to with regards to both operation and construction of the food areas on the ships. There are a couple of mentions of "slotted fasteners" in equipment. Standard slotted or Phillips head screws are not allowed on food equipment that meets USPH requirements, because you cannot clean the slots or "crosses" in the screws. There are special fasteners that must be used, and this adds to the cost of the equipment bought, if it must meet USPH standards.

I'm not sure the statement that all cooking must be done in "designated/certified kitchens" is correct (not doubting the poster, just the person supplying the information). Provided the equipment used meets USPH construction standards, and the food preparation and service meets USPH operational standards, I know of no reason that an outdoor BBQ would not be allowed, though the USPH is working on a revision to the VSP, that hasn't come out yet.

I totally concur. Didn't realize there was more to the report. Slotted screws a big no no..
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#11
Maine
10,784 Posts
Joined Feb 2013
Originally posted by KirkNC
O' the horrors, someone may have to travel 25 feet to wash their hands!

Another example of regulations going to the extreme.

This inspection was done just prior to the world cruise. We were told HAL is looking at work around for future cruises but given the timing of this report, they were unable to do anything for the WC.
All to protect your health, and why the USPH inspectors will by far prefer to eat on a cruise ship than at most local restaurants (most of them are former local/state health inspectors, and have told me they trust their standards above all others on a personal note).

Actually, if the ship is on a world cruise, then once it no longer calls at a US port, it does not need to meet USPH regulations, so that explanation doesn't hold water.
#12
New Brunswick, Canada
9,521 Posts
Joined Feb 2007
Originally posted by chengkp75
Didn't do well is an understatement. Any score less than 86 is a "fail" and warrants immediate corrective action.

Like many of these reports, the written description doesn't really cover the infraction, and unfortunately, HAL and the Amsterdam have not submitted a Corrective Action Report since this inspection in December, and these CAR's really show the detail of infraction and the actions taken.

I have seen many BBQ's on ships, and have set up quite a few. I suspect that the main problem was the open roof, combined with a possible lack of covering for the food, both in the prep (cooking) area and the serving area. It would also appear that the person in charge of the BBQ did not demonstrate sufficient knowledge of food protection measures like what kind of materials are allowed, how the presentation stations should be covered/protected, and how time controls are used for food safety in a service like this. The handwash sink is a secondary concern.

If you read the Amsterdam's report, you will see the detail that the inspectors get to with regards to both operation and construction of the food areas on the ships. There are a couple of mentions of "slotted fasteners" in equipment. Standard slotted or Phillips head screws are not allowed on food equipment that meets USPH requirements, because you cannot clean the slots or "crosses" in the screws. There are special fasteners that must be used, and this adds to the cost of the equipment bought, if it must meet USPH standards.

I'm not sure the statement that all cooking must be done in "designated/certified kitchens" is correct (not doubting the poster, just the person supplying the information). Provided the equipment used meets USPH construction standards, and the food preparation and service meets USPH operational standards, I know of no reason that an outdoor BBQ would not be allowed, though the USPH is working on a revision to the VSP, that hasn't come out yet.
The mention of the retractable cover being open and presenting a hazard got me to thinking about seagulls, which are abundant in ports. Living in a seaport myself I am well aware of the presents the nasty garbage birds can leave on cars, deck chairs and any other surface that presents itself.
An open buffet in a port will never have the same appeal to me.
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#13
Charlotte, NC
2,315 Posts
Joined Jan 2007
This was something we were looking forward to on our September cruise....
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#14
New Jersey
8,710 Posts
Joined May 2007
is this infraction specifically about cooking? What about the various poolside buffets that don't involve a grill?

On our Panama canal cruise, there were stations serving Panama buns all over the ship, definitely not near hand washing stations. I know that isn't in the US, but is that kind of thing a potential problem?
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Kathy
The THIRD generation in my family to sail on a Cunarder
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#15
Maine
10,784 Posts
Joined Feb 2013
Originally posted by 3rdGenCunarder
is this infraction specifically about cooking? What about the various poolside buffets that don't involve a grill?

On our Panama canal cruise, there were stations serving Panama buns all over the ship, definitely not near hand washing stations. I know that isn't in the US, but is that kind of thing a potential problem?
Not necessarily all about cooking. It is also about protection of food being presented for self-service, or the ingredients for food prep like lettuce, onions, etc., for burgers at the cookout. I would have to have seen the stations, but if they are for passenger self-service, then there doesn't need to be a crew hand wash station nearby, but the stations would have to have covers over the buns that you would have to lift to get one. Yes, it is a potential source for cross-contamination as well as food-borne pathogens, and even if the ship is not in US waters, if it is routinely calling at US ports, it must continue to meet the VSP requirements or the USPH has the mandate to board the vessel every time it re-enters the US and do a full sanitary inspection, including interviews with passengers and crew.
#16
America's Hometown
16,659 Posts
Joined Feb 2006
Originally posted by sapper1
The mention of the retractable cover being open and presenting a hazard got me to thinking about seagulls, which are abundant in ports. Living in a seaport myself I am well aware of the presents the nasty garbage birds can leave on cars, deck chairs and any other surface that presents itself.

An open buffet in a port will never have the same appeal to me.


Oh gross! Sitting in the harbor on our boat one time, enjoying a nice lunch, a seagull flew in and grabbed some food. Yuck! They do leave gifts behind, too. 🤢


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Sheila
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#17
New Jersey
8,710 Posts
Joined May 2007
Originally posted by innlady1
Oh gross! Sitting in the harbor on our boat one time, enjoying a nice lunch, a seagull flew in and grabbed some food. Yuck! They do leave gifts behind, too. 🤢


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Yeah, I was "blessed" by a gull one time sitting at an outdoor table at a pub in Wales. When it happens, people always tell you it will bring good luck. What's with that???
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Kathy
The THIRD generation in my family to sail on a Cunarder
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#18
3,608 Posts
Joined Jan 2006
Eight meters does not seem like too long of a trek for a hand washing station. Seven meters okay? Six?

I was unhappy with the Lido BBQ hygiene on our Prinsendam cruise last October. There were no sneeze guards. It was too dark to see exactly what was going on, but both cooked and uncooked meat seemed to be in room temperature plastic bins. Lid handles and serving utensils were either sticky or greasy. I went without. Did not hear of any gastro-intestinal problems, though.
#19
New Jersey
8,710 Posts
Joined May 2007
Originally posted by chengkp75
Not necessarily all about cooking. It is also about protection of food being presented for self-service, or the ingredients for food prep like lettuce, onions, etc., for burgers at the cookout. I would have to have seen the stations, but if they are for passenger self-service, then there doesn't need to be a crew hand wash station nearby, but the stations would have to have covers over the buns that you would have to lift to get one. Yes, it is a potential source for cross-contamination as well as food-borne pathogens, and even if the ship is not in US waters, if it is routinely calling at US ports, it must continue to meet the VSP requirements or the USPH has the mandate to board the vessel every time it re-enters the US and do a full sanitary inspection, including interviews with passengers and crew.
Thanks for the answer. I do recall that they had foil partly covering the pans of Panama buns (and I guess the ones that weren't out for serving were completely covered). But those things were taken so quickly, that there wasn't time for any germs to land on them!
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Kathy
The THIRD generation in my family to sail on a Cunarder
28 QE2 - including 2 Midnight Sun, 2 Panama Canal, 6 TAs, 4 Canada/New England, and various Caribbean, Bermuda, Europe itineraries
9 QM2 - 5TAs, Caribbean, Royal Circumnavigation of Australia, Canada
1 Caronia - Baltic
10 HAL
1 Princess
2 RCCL
5 NCL - including 2 on SS Norway (RIP)
1 Uniworld River Cruise (Tulips and Windmills)
1 American Cruise Line - Queen of the West, Columbia & Snake Rivers
#20
813 Posts
Joined Apr 2009
Does this mean the Mexican Food Kiosk is gone as well.?? or is it close enough for the washing sinks at the Dive In window ?? One of my favorite things to do on HAL is to swing by the Mexican station around 4:30 and pickup a plate of chips, salsa etc.
for a cocktail in my cabin before dinner. Say it ain't gone please !!