Out of control dog on the Amsterdam

From HALs Facebook page - anyone else heard of this?

"We are currently on The MS Amsterdam and there has been a chronic problem. Wake up HAL legal staff and do something. A woman is aboard with a supposed service dog. However, the woman has left the ship at most ports for up to 12 hours without the dog. If she can do this why does this dog, which has pooped in many rooms on the ship including the Queens Lounge and the restaurant have to come to the food area. The lady has so abused everyone on board from staff and crew by threatening with her ADA certificate, The staff is complying because of her threats, but the dog has broken countless rules as defined by the ADA including barking during performances, lunging at other passengers, waking neighbors with its barking, being paraded throughout the ship in fancy costumes. The owner has broken many of the proper behavior rules including throwing her drink in her husband's face, yet nothing is done because she threatens and hides behind the ADA. HAL, get your legal team to learn your rights and the rights of the other passengers. We have sailed with this craziness for almost 78 days and have all witnessed her abuse. HAL's failure to address this problem has us new to the brand and many 4 and 5 Star Mariners questioning future cruises with this line."

WOW!!!

I am in shock at what the FB poster and their fellow passengers and the crew are all having to go through on their cruise..............

I do not doubt for a second and can only pray that the Captain will act and have this passenger put off the ship ASAP.

I remember reading a year ago or so about an older couple being put off a ship (I think it was a HAL ship) at a Canadian Port (Northeastern Cruise, Boston to Quebec or Montreal and return, I think) because of the womans rudeness and behavior while aboard ship, so I know they will do so.

Hiding behind the ADA does not mean that anyone can get away with what the passenger describes. I just cannot understand how that obnoxious passenger can have a valid Service Dog Certificate for a dog that behaves as described.

My suggestion for anyone who encounters such as this is to report it immediately and then when back home, send an email and snail mail not only to HAL Headquarters in Seattle, but also the ADA Home at http://www.ada.gov/ I'm sure there has to be a Contact us type of form or.... and report what sounds to me as a Phony Document and use of it. Hope that makes sense. It sure sounds as if this woman has a phony Certificate and if so there are some pretty hefty fines and might even be jail time for the use of it. It is just to easy these days to phony up...........

I pray I never have to go through anything near what those passengers have........

Joanie

This story is one that I would expect to be posted to this board by one of those "one post wonders" who never come back.

While I don't doubt the posting was on F/B, I do have to wonder if it's made up.

Hopefully HAL will now do something about this...since it's become very public. I just can't imagine being on a ship with a dog (and owner) like that.

That is terrible that crew and other passengers have had to put up with this woman and her dog. And she even threw her drink in her husband's face!! Something definitely needs to be done about her.

We have been on quite a few cruises with service animals and only one time a few years ago was there a problem with a woman and the service dog.

On our recent 21 day Noordam cruise we had a service dog just doors from our cabin. Never was a problem.

Poor dog. Left alone on a ship? If any of this is true, while I'm sorry pax have to endure this, none of this is the dogs fault. Poor pooch. Flame away!

This story is one that I would expect to be posted to this board by one of those "one post wonders" who never come back.

 

While I don't doubt the posting was on F/B, I do have to wonder if it's made up.

Who is the "one post wonder" you are referring to?

Why would you think this was made up? Unlike here, on FB your identity is not a secret...why would someone lie?

Who is the "one post wonder" you are referring to?

 

Why would you think this was made up? Unlike here, on FB your identity is not a secret...why would someone lie?

A "one post wonder" is someone who has a very low post count, like 1, who makes some kind of exaggerated claim which is usually derogatory in nature, and is often directed at their supposed experience on a HAL ship. The poster never comes back to the thread to support the claim or provide additional details.

As to why someone would do this, a couple of the reasons would be a grudge against HAL for something that happened in the past or even an employee of another line. Then again sometimes these posts are just to "stir the pot"

It's too easy to get a fake service dog certificate these days and according to ADA rules, no one is supposed to ask what your disability is if you say the dog is a service dog. (Not sure how that works on a ship before boarding.)

Unfortunately, this can not be a real service dog. They are trained not to bark, to be obedient and not to poop all over the ship. I hope HAL is paying attention. They are probably afraid to do anything because they're not sure if the ADA is really involved here in what seems to be a fake service dog with a certificate you can get off the net. I can not see how this can be a real service dog if they leave it on the ship while in port.

It sounds like an awful situation.

It's too easy to get a fake service dog certificate these days and according to ADA rules, no one is supposed to ask what your disability is if you say the dog is a service dog. (Not sure how that works on a ship before boarding.)

 

Unfortunately, this can not be a real service dog. They are trained not to bark, to be obedient and not to poop all over the ship. I hope HAL is paying attention. They are probably afraid to do anything because they're not sure if the ADA is really involved here in what seems to be a fake service dog with a certificate you can get off the net. I can not see how this can be a real service dog if they leave it on the ship while in port.

 

It sounds like an awful situation.

Totally agree. I saw someone at a hotel with a 'service dog'. Service dog my foot! So badly behaved and distracted that there was no way it was a service dog.

Kazu (who is NOT a service dog) is better behaved than that and has been used in public places when he was younger to help raise awareness (and money) for the SPCA.

How long do you think it will take for HAL to remove that FB post from their site?

If this is accurate I sure hope HAL and ship's leadership puts an end to it.

We were on the Amsterdam for the first 26 days of this cruise. We know of the dog and the folks traveling with the dog. While we were on board we witnessed none of the rude behavior described.

True, the couple went on shorex without the dog - mostly due to fears that local immigration would get in the way of the dog being able to re board the ship. The owners did quite a bit of pre-cruise research. We spoke to the owners while they were on shore (sans dog).

It was not unusual to see HAL staff around the ship with the dog happily following along. It was my impression that the staff were quite anxious to spend time with the animal.

That being said - we were only on board for 26 days and at that did not spend much time around the dog and it's owners. I have no way of knowing if the situation deteriorated. I can only say that we observed none of the described negative behaviors.

 

Unfortunately, this can not be a real service dog. They are trained not to bark, to be obedient and not to poop all over the ship. I hope HAL is paying attention. They are probably afraid to do anything because they're not sure if the ADA is really involved here in what seems to be a fake service dog with a certificate you can get off the net.[/size][/font] I can not see how this can be a real service dog if they leave it on the ship while in port.

I thought HALs policy was that service animals had to be accompanied by a handler at all times (and not left alone in cabins). If that is true, they certainly should be able to enforce that at the very minimum.

Anyone remember the thread several years back about the "service cat" whose owner was reportedly disappointed that she was not allowed to leave the cat in their cabin while they circulated through the ship or went ashore?

Thank you for your input, arzz. I was hoping you would pop in this thread, as I knew you had some first-hand info to add. I know you don't have an ax to grind, so I have faith in what you say.

We were on the Amsterdam for the first 26 days of this cruise. We know of the dog and the folks traveling with the dog. While we were on board we witnessed none of the rude behavior described.

 

True, the couple went on shorex without the dog - mostly due to fears that local immigration would get in the way of the dog being able to re board the ship. The owners did quite a bit of pre-cruise research. We spoke to the owners while they were on shore (sans dog).

 

It was not unusual to see HAL staff around the ship with the dog happily following along. It was my impression that the staff were quite anxious to spend time with the animal.

 

That being said - we were only on board for 26 days and at that did not spend much time around the dog and it's owners. I have no way of knowing if the situation deteriorated. I can only say that we observed none of the described negative behaviors.

Thank you for this!!

As always there are 2 sides to every tale and you have provided us wih yours. And YOURS is one that I highly respect!!

26 days gives you enough time to definitely get a "feel" for what other passengers and crew saw and heard or not.

I thought about the reasoning of leaving the dog on the ship while in ports and it makes perfect sense. As one example, no dog can enter Britain without spending 6 weeks in Quarantine (at least it was true several years ago, may have changed, but not sure.)

Again, Thank you for your post:)

Joanie

How long do you think it will take for HAL to remove that FB post from their site?

 

If this is accurate I sure hope HAL and ship's leadership puts an end to it.

The post has been up for 22 hours and HAL FB team has commented on it. Looks like they won't be deleting it since they have not yet and since it is a "post to page" it's not easily read on their main FB page.

It sounds like the situation deteriorated in the last 50 days. I hope HAL addresses the concerns of the FB poster and other passengers.

I was hoping you would pop in this thread, as I knew you had some first-hand info to add.

Did you mean "pop" or "poop"?

I have done some work in training true service dogs for a Guide dog agency and I can tell you that ADA clearly spells out the required behaviour for service dogs. Establishments are able to have an animal .... even a guide dog for the blind ... removed for any one of a number of issues that show it is not properly trained- or that the owner is unable to handle it. We did have a service dog on one long cruise I was on and he was left crated in the cabin while the owner went ashore with family.... however that dog was quiet and well trained. It used the designated areas for bathroom needs and did not bark. Since the woman was with family ashore, she felt confident without the dog and no one said questioned it to my knowledge. These people had taken a very short cruise the dog before the longer one to be sure the dog could handle the cruise ... it is stressful on the animal and not all dogs can handle it. Hope this gets worked out.

Susan

Service Animals

The Department of Justice published revised final regulations implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) for title II (State and local government services) and title III (public accommodations and commercial facilities) on September 15, 2010, in the Federal Register. These requirements, or rules, clarify and refine issues that have arisen over the past 20 years and contain new, and updated, requirements, including the 2010 Standards for Accessible Design (2010 Standards).

Overview

This publication provides guidance on the term “service animal” and the service animal provisions in the Department’s new regulations.

Beginning on March 15, 2011, only dogs are recognized as service animals under titles II and III of the ADA.

A service animal is a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for a person with a disability.

Generally, title II and title III entities must permit service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas where members of the public are allowed to go.

How “Service Animal” Is Defined

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

This definition does not affect or limit the broader definition of “assistance animal” under the Fair Housing Act or the broader definition of “service animal” under the Air Carrier Access Act.

Some State and local laws also define service animal more broadly than the ADA does. Information about such laws can be obtained from the State attorney general’s office.

Where Service Animals Are Allowed

Under the ADA, State and local governments, businesses, and nonprofit organizations that serve the public generally must allow service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas of the facility where the public is normally allowed to go. For example, in a hospital it would be inappropriate to exclude a service animal from areas such as patient rooms, clinics, cafeterias, or examination rooms. However, it may be appropriate to exclude a service animal from operating rooms or burn units where the animal’s presence may compromise a sterile environment.

Service Animals Must Be Under Control

Under the ADA, service animals must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices. In that case, the individual must maintain control of the animal through voice, signal, or other effective controls.

Inquiries, Exclusions, Charges, and Other Specific Rules Related to Service Animals

When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. When a person who is allergic to dog dander and a person who uses a service animal must spend time in the same room or facility, for example, in a school classroom or at a homeless shelter, they both should be accommodated by assigning them, if possible, to different locations within the room or different rooms in the facility.

A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken. When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animal’s presence.

Establishments that sell or prepare food must allow service animals in public areas even if state or local health codes prohibit animals on the premises.

People with disabilities who use service animals cannot be isolated from other patrons, treated less favorably than other patrons, or charged fees that are not charged to other patrons without animals. In addition, if a business requires a deposit or fee to be paid by patrons with pets, it must waive the charge for service animals.

If a business such as a hotel normally charges guests for damage that they cause, a customer with a disability may also be charged for damage caused by himself or his service animal.

Staff are not required to provide care or food for a service animal.

Poor dog. Left alone on a ship? If any of this is true, while I'm sorry pax have to endure this, none of this is the dogs fault. Poor pooch. Flame away!

no flaming from me;)

Dogs can only be left alone for so long.

This is not a troll message. If you go to the applicable facebook page , there is a reply and answer session between HAL and the complainer.:

Holland America Line Hello Amy, thank you for your post. We appreciate you bringing your concerns to our attention. While we have brought your concerns to the attention of the management on board, if you have any additional concerns please contact the Front Office as they are in the best position to assist you. We thank you again for your post.

Amy Xxxxxxxxxx This Response is insulting, of course, the front desk, the captain and many others have received countless letters, calls and written notes about the situation and the official comment is that the lady has the paper from the ADA. We are saying, the staff does not have the legal knowledge to know where to draw the line. HAL has to back the online staff by researching the law, as many passengers aboard have done, and create a policy should another inappropriate service dog with misbehaving owner cause such a problem for so many Passengers and crew.

So to me it seems a genuine situation.

It's too easy to get a fake service dog certificate these days and according to ADA rules, no one is supposed to ask what your disability is if you say the dog is a service dog. (Not sure how that works on a ship before boarding.)

 

Unfortunately, this can not be a real service dog. They are trained not to bark, to be obedient and not to poop all over the ship. I hope HAL is paying attention. They are probably afraid to do anything because they're not sure if the ADA is really involved here in what seems to be a fake service dog with a certificate you can get off the net. I can not see how this can be a real service dog if they leave it on the ship while in port.

 

It sounds like an awful situation.

You are misinformed numerous alerts are barking alerts.

Do people often bring Facebook posts here to CC?

Why?

I avoid reading HAL's Facebook page and it's fine by me if I don't read excerpts here. :)

Even if the dog IS a real service dog, if it is behaving in the way the FB poster alleges, it can be barred from the ship. Service dogs ARE allowed in businesses per the ADA, but if they misbehave by barking excessively, being aggressive, urinating or defecating in inappropriate locations, etc. the business may ask/require them to leave.

IF the dog's behavior is that bad, it sounds like the N.A. crew needs some education about what HAL's rights are here.