Anyone go through the new locks yet?

Just checking to see if anyone has had the opportunity to transit the new system yet.

We will not be going through again until March 2018 on Celebrity Infinity. Even though I enjoy the mechanics of the old locks with the mules and such, I would like to transit the new locks once just to say we have done it. :D

thanks

Edit: Oops, I guess it was already answered on another message string that cruise ships still use the old locks.

If I remember from the many other threads on the topic, no cruise ship is scheduled until Spring 2017. Caribbean Princess, I am pretty sure.

The new locks just opened last month. This is not the "season" for cruise ships to go through the Canal. That doesn't start until late September.

I think that honor has so far been granted to just a few and not any of us mere mortals:D! Actually they have only been running somewhere from 2 to 4 commercial lockages a day through the new locks and some training lockages with their chartered bulk carrier. A good friend of mine is a tug captain on the Canal and he has not even been through the new locks, but then again he is not on one of the tugs that were purchased specifically to assist ships through the new locks.

I'm on the same side of the fence as you... I really would like to transit the new locks if for nothing else, I did it or maybe just some professional curiosity. However I really think going through the new locks will be a bit of a let down. Sure they are big and impressive in their own right, but compared to a ship squeezing through the old locks, a ship like the Caribbean Princess will have plenty of room both length and width wise. Just won't seem as dramatic as it is with 106' beam crammed into a 110' wide chamber While the CP with 118' beam will seemingly have a country mile of room with the 180' wide chamber. And of course missing will be the other chamber of shipping and the mules... all of which add to the mix.

Anyway I have been looking seriously at one of the Caribbean Princess's offerings in 2017... haven't pulled the trigger yet tho.

Bill,

Just saw that the first allision between a ship and the new lock wall has happened. Another Cosco ship. Damage to ship, none to lock.

Bill,

 

Just saw that the first allision between a ship and the new lock wall has happened. Another Cosco ship. Damage to ship, none to lock.

I was just reading about it. Guess the honor of having the first ship through the new locks is fine, however having the first ship to get holed in the new locks... not so good!

I was extremely curious as to just exactly where at the Atlantic Locks did the accident take place. Since inception there was a great deal of concern by the pilots and others about the lack of an approach wall on the lake entrance to Agua Clara Locks. Meanwhile the sea entrance has a fairly long approach wall as well as an approach wall at both the lake and sea entrances of the Pacific side's Cocoli Locks. Sure enough, it happened at the lake entrance of Agua Clara, the no approach wall end of the lock. Received an email from my tug skipper friend, he said a squall came up from the south, lost visibility and high winds (and this is not the wind season!) He added the pilots blamed the tugs... no idea how that will all be decided as to fault, but I am sure it will add fuel to no approach wall debate. I was told that it was too deep at the lake entrance for an approach wall... don't know how accurate that info is.

I was able to glean this AIS screen shot from another source... don't have any narrative to the sequence of events, thought it was interesting tho. Hope you are where you can see it.

Thanks, Bill. Interesting that even with a tug on the hip they had trouble controlling the swing. The tractor tugs are real efficient when up close but not so much when on the hawser. And those big box boats aren't real handy either.

Great information. Aren't we still in the first month of operation? :p

While not trying to fan any flames, but the attached article from gCaptain does raise concern in some quarters about the suitability of the new expansion locks.

Happy one month of operations today PCWalton1 Bill;):o

http://gcaptain.com/panama-canal-design-concerns-renewed-after-ship-hits-wall/

I was extremely curious as to just exactly where at the Atlantic Locks did the accident take place. Since inception there was a great deal of concern by the pilots and others about the lack of an approach wall on the lake entrance to Agua Clara Locks. ...

I really appreciate all the fascinating information you and others who know the Canal provide in this forum, thanks again. Can you please explain what an "approach wall" is? I understand the words, and I have some speculative idea in my head what they may mean here, but rather than guess, I'd really appreciate actually knowing. :)

Thanks!

I really appreciate all the fascinating information you and others who know the Canal provide in this forum, thanks again. Can you please explain what an "approach wall" is? I understand the words, and I have some speculative idea in my head what they may mean here, but rather than guess, I'd really appreciate actually knowing. :)

 

Thanks!

I'm sure Bill will have a photo, but the approach walls are the concrete walls that extend out before/after the lock door. This is where the mules would be made up to the ship before entering the old locks. The approach walls will mitigate currents from the lock next door and wind effects on the ship when it is barely creeping forward towards the lock. Think of them as the "funnel" that guides the ship into the lock chamber.

Yup... got photos or at least I can usually find them if needed. The first picture is of the approach wall at the sea entrance to the new Agua Clara Locks on the Atlantic side. Although there are no "mules" involved at the new locks, the approach wall provides a good safe place to gently land the ship if needed, almost as you would if you were coming along side a pier. This really facilitates the ship entering the chamber particularly in windy or other adverse conditions. In a perfect approach to the lock, the ship won't land on the approach wall... but it's there if needed.

The approach wall is on the port side of the ship and runs down to what we called the "jaws" where you see the lock wall at widen to a 45 degree angle to the rest of the lock.

The following photo is of the Gatun Lake (South) end of the Agua Clara Locks where there is not an approach wall. While the lack of an approach wall really does not provide any real issues with an exiting ship, it's much harder to line the ship up entering, this is where the latest incident happened where the ship was holed. The damaged ship was entering the Agual Clara Locks at the time. The ship that was damaged was a container vessel which provides a lot more sail area with all those boxes than the ship in the picture which is a bulk carrier with a much better profile for windy conditions.

Threw in this last picture because it shows just exactly how the approach wall would be used on the old locks. A couple of tugs are being used to pin the ship against the approach wall. This is very common on the old locks as often times the locomotives have returned yet to pick up the next ship. This is a picture of Gatun Locks on the right and the almost finished Agua Clara on the left (this photo was taken sometime in May). The approach wall on the old locks is really just an extension of the center wall of the lock. The absence of a lake side approach wall for the new locks is quite noticeable... to me anyway.

Chengkp and Bill, thank you both SO much! And pictures are definitely worth 1,000 words -- really great to have those visuals plus the explanation. (Bill's first photo is what I assumed an approach wall was, glad to see it for real.)

As I've mentioned elsewhere, we'll be doing our first transit in January (on the NCL Jewel), and just reading these sorts of things on this forum and seeing these photos is just fascinating and has me even more excited.

Thanks again!

I agree with Turtles06 that those pictures really do visually explain what you were discussing!

Chief and Bill, do you think an approach wall will need to be added given that we are not even in hurricane season yet, and if a squall mid summer can cause a vessel to lose control even with tugs, what will it be like when the weather is less dependable?

Will more tugs be required in Fall/Winter months when using hawsers?

ex techie

I agree with Turtles06 that those pictures really do visually explain what you were discussing!

 

Chief and Bill, do you think an approach wall will need to be added given that we are not even in hurricane season yet, and if a squall mid summer can cause a vessel to lose control even with tugs, what will it be like when the weather is less dependable?

 

Will more tugs be required in Fall/Winter months when using hawsers?

 

ex techie

They will likely need more tugs in poorer weather, and maybe all the time. It's hard to say right now whether the learning curve for the tug skippers and pilots, and their ability to work together in a new environment will overcome the early problems, or whether the Canal Authority will need to go back to the drawing board. Adding an approach wall would effectively shut down the new locks for many months.

They will likely need more tugs in poorer weather, and maybe all the time. It's hard to say right now whether the learning curve for the tug skippers and pilots, and their ability to work together in a new environment will overcome the early problems, or whether the Canal Authority will need to go back to the drawing board. Adding an approach wall would effectively shut down the new locks for many months.

Absolutely. Would a wall of dolphins with rotating buffers be an option rather than a solid wall work?

thanks for your insight as always Chief!

ex techie

Please forgive my ignorance, if my post above is totally ridiculous!

ex techie

Absolutely. Would a wall of dolphins with rotating buffers be an option rather than a solid wall work?

 

thanks for your insight as always Chief!

 

ex techie

It could, but it would all depend on the subsoil conditions as to whether individual dolphins would be strong enough. A lot of the Canal construction has been hampered over the history of the project by unstable soil conditions.

It could, but it would all depend on the subsoil conditions as to whether individual dolphins would be strong enough. A lot of the Canal construction has been hampered over the history of the project by unstable soil conditions.

Sounds like an engineering challenge that a lot of the rock that was blasted out maybe could have been used to provide a stable and firm sea bed along with a lot of concrete.

Money and hindsight and all that! lo!

ex techie

There has been some discussions for some sort of moored approach wall. I think at this point it is just discussions and I have no idea how practical it would be. Perhaps an additional tug/s in the mean time will provide the time needed to adjust to this particular challenge.

The winter months in Panama will provide the greatest challenge. December until April provide Panama with the Dry Season and the accompanying trade winds, while they will ease up some overnights it is not uncommon for a continuous 20-25 mph wind out of the north. While the temps are pleasant and the breeze refreshing, it is certainly not the best of conditions for the ship handlers!

In article from the NY Times there are a couple more screen shots of the ship's position display leading up to the contact with the lock wall that I posted in post #5. A little discussion of some sort of floating approach wall as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/31/world/americas/panama-canal.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=2

In article from the NY Times there are a couple more screen shots of the ship's position display leading up to the contact with the lock wall that I posted in post #5. A little discussion of some sort of floating approach wall as well.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/31/world/americas/panama-canal.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=2

What worries me from this article is the fact that not all the tug skippers have been trained. I know that not all would be assigned to the new locks, but it just shows that training was not started soon enough, and I wonder how/if the pilots and tug skippers were trained together, and whether it would benefit operations to have set "teams" of matched pilots and tugs who have trained and gained experience with each other.

Seeing a better photo of the damage to the ship, I laugh at the description of "gash" in the side, when in fact the only breach is a small hole about 12-15" long, the rest is just a dent. Heck, the Celebrity ship that hit the dock in Alaska did more damage.

Also, it mentions that the first ship through, "brushed the approach wall" at one of the locks, but from my experience, using the approach wall as an "additional tug" is quite common.

Now, admittedly, I'm not a Captain or pilot, but I've seen enough ships maneuvered, and talked with my Captains about maneuvering, and I know that when a ship is moving forward, the turning point moves forward as well, to about 1/3 the length of the ship back from the bow. This is the point that the ship turns around, not the middle of the ship (conversely for going astern, it moves aft). This actually, and counter-intuitively, makes the stern thruster more effective in turning the ship than the bow thruster (it has a longer lever arm so less power means more force). While the ECDIS displays only show the ship's lateral speed, not the thruster commands, I wonder how much stern thruster is being used, and also whether the bow thruster was going to port to counteract the swing, when it probably should have been going to starboard to move the ship laterally away from the corner, more towards the starboard lock wall where the "strike area" is already inside the doors and into the fendered area.

Not sure if floating fenders would be of much use, as by definition they will "give way" some due to not being rigidly attached to the bottom.

The training aspect has been a hot topic of the tug skippers and the pilots as well. To date much of it has been simulator based, which I'm sure it can be good but in the end it is just that... a simulator that has its limits. I know that a few pilots went to Amsterdam and the Berendrecht Locks for familiarization, but I have no idea how in depth that was. Some of the pilots even did it at their own expense. I read a pilot's postings on fb and his complaint was too much of what is learned is passed on informally in his words " via the grapevine." He went on to say whenever you are not near the vine, you are out of the loop. While I don't know him personally, I do know of him, he is a younger senior pilot, Texas A&M Maritime grad, generally well respected.

The lack of an approach wall has been a source of contention ever since the plans for the new locks were announced. The ship handlers were very vocal from the beginning and the ACP thought differently and were eager to point out that other locks in Europe did not have an approach wall. No doubt there were engineering concerns about the water for the approach wall being too deep, but in the end the I believe the ACP thought if it works in Amsterdam it can work in Panama. After that most of the disagreements on no approach wall tended to take on a labor-management tone and the ensuing entrenchment of positions.

You are right about the using of the approach wall upon entering. While most of the pilots would prefer not to land on the approach wall while entering (particularly the pretty white cruise ships) when necessary it was the default method of entering the locks... just put the ship on the fender and smoke it in. Many a ship had what we used to call Canal service stripes... two black stripes down much of the length of the ship, just above the water line.

Of course using the 20/20 hindsight, I would have thought that if the full 1200-1400' approach wall would not have been practical, that a shorter one would have been better than none.

Absolutely. Would a wall of dolphins with rotating buffers be an option rather than a solid wall work?

 

thanks for your insight as always Chief!

 

ex techie

LOL

I wasn't familiar with this use of the word "dolphin," so I was imagining squads of marine mammals nudging the ship into place. :D A bit of googling straightened me out.

non techie