RCCL BOOKED A b2b now claims violates jones act HELP

OP said it was booked on board Radiance.

 

I say that Celebrity can do more to make this right. It's their fault

Missed that....yes this is one that Celebrity has to solve in a way that's satisfactory to the customer....just like any other travel agent would be responsible for a bad/incorrect booking.

This is an itinerary and B2B cruise we have been considering ourselves for 2016 :eek: - all of the posters seem to know what kind of law would be violated. Can somebody please explain in a few short sentences of not too many syllables how a cruise touching the US-Canada and the US again would violate state laws? The original posting (Londonbridge) is from the UK - is there a difference or is the law valid for all nationalities?

I don't want to barge into the thread - but really very curious about an explanation. The only thing I can remember is a law that a cruise ship has to enter one Non-American port when leaving Hawaii before ending the cruise at anm American port. But this can't be the case here???? :confused:

Thank you for your explanations and good luck for Londonbridge that they can find a solution.

Briefly,

On a closed loop cruise (which this is not) the ship only has to visit any foreign port

On a cruise from one US city ending in a different US city, the ship has to visit a DISTANT foreign port. Canada is not considered distant. So this proposed trip that starts in Hawaii and ends in Seattle is not allowed.

The law in question is called the Passenger Vessel Service Act, often mistakenly called the Jones Act. The Jones Act deals with cargo.

Wikipedia has a very good explanation of each.

This is an itinerary and B2B cruise we have been considering ourselves for 2016 :eek: - all of the posters seem to know what kind of law would be violated. Can somebody please explain in a few short sentences of not too many syllables how a cruise touching the US-Canada and the US again would violate state laws? The original posting (Londonbridge) is from the UK - is there a difference or is the law valid for all nationalities?

I don't want to barge into the thread - but really very curious about an explanation. The only thing I can remember is a law that a cruise ship has to enter one Non-American port when leaving Hawaii before ending the cruise at anm American port. But this can't be the case here???? :confused:

Thank you for your explanations and good luck for Londonbridge that they can find a solution.

In brief, the PVSA was enacted to protect US trade from competition. So it prevents foreign flagged vessels from transporting passengers between two different US ports (with some exceptions, that I won't bother to get into here as they don't apply in this situation).

If does not matter how many cruises are involved.

The passenger's nationality doesn't matter.

All that matters is where the passenger initially embarks and finally disembarks the ship.

Since the OP will initially embark at Honolulu (a US port), it would be illegal to have Seattle (another US port) as the final disembarkation port.

You can read about the Passenger Vessel Services Act in detail, if you really care.

This is an itinerary and B2B cruise we have been considering ourselves for 2016 :eek: - all of the posters seem to know what kind of law would be violated. Can somebody please explain in a few short sentences of not too many syllables how a cruise touching the US-Canada and the US again would violate state laws? The original posting (Londonbridge) is from the UK - is there a difference or is the law valid for all nationalities?

I don't want to barge into the thread - but really very curious about an explanation. The only thing I can remember is a law that a cruise ship has to enter one Non-American port when leaving Hawaii before ending the cruise at anm American port. But this can't be the case here???? :confused:

Thank you for your explanations and good luck for Londonbridge that they can find a solution.

Canada is not classed as a foreign country therefore the cruise is viewed as a US to US port without visiting a (Non-American) foreign country, which only US registered ships are allowed to do. I think the only large US registered ship is NCL's Pride of Hawaii.

As mentioned by an earlier poster, if the cruise stopped in Mexico (even Ensenada) then it would be fine as Mexico is classed as a foreign country.

The passengers nationality does not have any bearing on it - even a US citizen would be prevented from taking this journey. It is all to do with the US preventing foreign registered ships being allowed to conduct US domestic cruises.

I hope this helps (and is an accurate description too lol) - but this is my understanding. We ran into the same problem several years ago when we were looking at a similar itinerary.

Cheers

Ando

Although this may not the easiest, but the best solution is just get off in Victoria, spend the night and fly to Seattle via Alaska Air the following day and catch your connecting flight home. It's only 40 minutes and there are various morning flights to Seattle. This way you are cruising from Honolulu to Victoria; not Honolulu to Seattle which is a violation of the PSVA. Unfortunately who ever booked you didn't understand the law, but Celebrity can not willingly let you violate the law no matter who's fault it might be. The other option is just cancel the second leg and spend the time in Canada and NW before your flight home. Sorry for all the inconvenience this has brought you.

Canada is not classed as a foreign country therefore the cruise is viewed as a US to US port without visiting a (Non-American) foreign country, which only US registered ships are allowed to do. I think the only large US registered ship is NCL's Pride of Hawaii.

 

As mentioned by an earlier poster, if the cruise stopped in Mexico (even Ensenada) then it would be fine as Mexico is classed as a foreign country.

 

The passengers nationality does not have any bearing on it - even a US citizen would be prevented from taking this journey. It is all to do with the US preventing foreign registered ships being allowed to conduct US domestic cruises.

 

I hope this helps (and is an accurate description too lol) - but this is my understanding. We ran into the same problem several years ago when we were looking at a similar itinerary.

Although both Canada and Mexico are foreign countries, a stop in Mexico would not satisfy the "distant" foreign port exception any more than the stop in Victoria does, since both are classified as "nearby" foreign ports.

So even if the ship were to make a stop in Ensenada, or any other Mexican port, it would not change anything for the OP.

Feckle is correct and Ando is incorrect. There are no specially defined Ditant Forign Ports in either Canada nor Mexico

For what it's worth, this is the definition of a "nearby foreign port" according to the PVSA:

A “nearby foreign port” is defined as "any port in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)." 19 CFR § 4.80a(a)(2).

Any port not fitting this description is a "distant foreign port".

A non-US flagged ship may not transport passengers from one US port to a different US port without a stop in a distant foreign port. Doesn't matter if the embarkation port and debarkation port are actually on two different reservations, under different numbers. As fleckle said: "All that matters is where the passenger initially embarks and finally disembarks the ship.

This is an itinerary and B2B cruise we have been considering ourselves for 2016 :eek: - all of the posters seem to know what kind of law would be violated. Can somebody please explain in a few short sentences of not too many syllables how a cruise touching the US-Canada and the US again would violate state laws? The original posting (Londonbridge) is from the UK - is there a difference or is the law valid for all nationalities?

I don't want to barge into the thread - but really very curious about an explanation. The only thing I can remember is a law that a cruise ship has to enter one Non-American port when leaving Hawaii before ending the cruise at anm American port. But this can't be the case here???? :confused:

Thank you for your explanations and good luck for Londonbridge that they can find a solution.

London Bridge

Cool Cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: New England

Posts: 101

Perhaps the London Bridge part threw you off?? :)

I'd do the train. Think of it as an excursion!

My DW and I took the train from Seattle and Vancouver in May 2013 and it was stunning. Comfortable accommodations and easy connections. An excellent "excursion".

Also, the PVSA and the Jones Act are linked (one Act references the other). A perfect example of laws with negative unintended consequences.

...I just hope that you paid for everything on a major credit card so that you can dispute charges if necessary and have the full protection of the credit card company behind you.

 

This 'might' help a little if both the cruise and airfare were purchased through Celebrity, but I don't think it would help at all if the airfare was purchased separately from the cruise and direct through the airline or a different channel. I'm also not sure it would help unless they wanted to cancel everything. I know I wouldn't want to contest a charge, even partially, for a future cruise I intend to take - I just don't think that would fly.

This is an itinerary and B2B cruise we have been considering ourselves for 2016 :eek: - all of the posters seem to know what kind of law would be violated. Can somebody please explain in a few short sentences of not too many syllables how a cruise touching the US-Canada and the US again would violate state laws? The original posting (Londonbridge) is from the UK - is there a difference or is the law valid for all nationalities?

I don't want to barge into the thread - but really very curious about an explanation. The only thing I can remember is a law that a cruise ship has to enter one Non-American port when leaving Hawaii before ending the cruise at anm American port. But this can't be the case here???? :confused:

Thank you for your explanations and good luck for Londonbridge that they can find a solution.

Somebody else had posted this a while back and I saved it.

PVSA

The Questionnaire Pay attention to Question #4.

Answering "YES" to ALL of the questions below will likely constitute a PVSA violation.

1.Will you initially embark in a US port?

2.Will your voyage be entirely on the same vessel?

3.Is the vessel registered and flagged in a foreign nation?

4.Will your final disembarkation be at a different US port than which you initially embarked at (note that this may include previously unplanned disembarkation during the middle of a cruise due to illness/injury/emergency)?

5.Will your voyage only include ports within North America (Hawaii included. Aruba, Curacao, and Bonaire excluded)?

Hello.

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with your cruise. If I may make a suggestion.

Should you be able to disembark in Victoria on time at 6:00 pm, that will give you plenty of time to rent a car and take the ferry across and spend the night in Belliingham.

You then have 2 options.

1) You can then drop off the car at Bellingham airport the next day and either take one of the 3 scheduled flights to Seattle before your flight from Seattle. I believe that you can check your bags all the way through to your final destination if your flight out of Seattle is on American or Delta. But double check that. Costs for the flight will be around $100/pp

2) You can drop off your car at Bellingham airport and then take the Airporter Shuttle to SeaTac Airport.

http://www.airporter.com/schedules/schedules-western-wa

As much as I love Victoria, I believe that you should get off Vancouver Island that night if you can. Being on the mainland will give you more options should something go wrong. Bellingham is 45 minutes away once you get off the ferry.

I hope things go well for you with Celebrity.

Even though leaving the cruise at Victoria would prevent a violation of the PVSA. I am very surprised that Celebrity would consider that as a solution since they are not selling a cruise between Vancouver and Victoria. As such in the computers the trip would be sold ending in Seattle and would kick out as invalid by their group that deals with such issues. I am not sure the person that indicated leaving in Victoria would solve the problem was correct because while it technically would work, I still doubt that Celebrity would allow you to be booked on the second leg.

Seems like the easiest thing for the OP and Celebrity is just go thru with the original plan. Yes, it's a violation of the PVSA, but the fine is $300 per person.

Celebrity ponys up the $300 per person for their screw up and everyone is happy.

Seems like the easiest thing for the OP and Celebrity is just go thru with the original plan. Yes, it's a violation of the PVSA, but the fine is $300 per person.

Celebrity ponys up the $300 per person for their screw up and everyone is happy.

EXCEPT-- if a cruiseline knowingly allows a violation of the PVSA, the fine can be more substantial than just that $300 per person. They can be banned from entering US ports altogether for a significant period of time (I'm talking years).

And Celebrity allowing these passengers to remain onboard all the way to Seattle? Well, they do know about the problem ahead of time and are trying to fix it somehow.

So I'm finding this all a little confusing, is it because this is a b2b that causes the trouble?

If so does that mean that OP must be the only person dong this as a b2b or else others are in the same difficulty.

So I'm finding this all a little confusing, is it because this is a b2b that causes the trouble?

 

 

If so does that mean that OP must be the only person dong this as a b2b or else others are in the same difficulty.

The issue here is the Passenger Vessel Services Act (originally enacted to protect US shipping interests).

The law says a non-US flagged ship cannot transport passengers from one US port to a different US port without a stop in a distant foreign port. Even though (in this case) the two B2B cruises are separate reservations, the passengers will embark the ship in Hawaii (US port) and debark in Seattle (different US port). And there are no distant foreign ports anywhere close to the line of travel for the ship to stop at.

So, yes the issue was booking the B2B in the first place.

Even though leaving the cruise at Victoria would prevent a violation of the PVSA. I am very surprised that Celebrity would consider that as a solution since they are not selling a cruise between Vancouver and Victoria. As such in the computers the trip would be sold ending in Seattle and would kick out as invalid by their group that deals with such issues. I am not sure the person that indicated leaving in Victoria would solve the problem was correct because while it technically would work, I still doubt that Celebrity would allow you to be booked on the second leg.

It was Celebrity that suggested leaving the ship in Victoria - not the OP or PP.

EXCEPT-- if a cruiseline knowingly allows a violation of the PVSA, the fine can be more substantial than just that $300 per person. They can be banned from entering US ports altogether for a significant period of time (I'm talking years

Is this your assumption, or is it fact? I looked at 19 CFR 4.80b which discusses penalties and did not see any mention of "knowingly", or more drastic penalties. Not trying to start an argument, just curious.

Is this your assumption, or is it fact? I looked at 19 CFR 4.80b which discusses penalties and did not see any mention of "knowingly", or more drastic penalties. Not trying to start an argument, just curious.

I got that from someone who is much more knowledgeable about the PVSA than I'll ever be. I'll see if I can get him to come over here and answer, or find one of the posts he's posted in the past about this.

So I'm finding this all a little confusing, is it because this is a b2b that causes the trouble?

If the second cruise terminated in Vancouver instead of Seattle, there would be no problem at all.

If so does that mean that OP must be the only person dong this as a b2b or else others are in the same difficulty.

There will be no difficulty at all for the passengers who board in Australia.

The problem is only for anyone who initially embarks at Honolulu.

We don't know whether or not there will be others embarking at Honolulu besides the OP.

(Most cruise ship passengers do not post on this forum.)

Undoubtedly there will be others disembarking at Victoria, as there usually are on such cruises for one reason or another, but not necessarily for the same reason that the OP would disembark there.

This has happened each of the last two years on Solstice. In 2013, there were around 30 or 40 passengers who disembarked in Victoria after boarding in Hawaii. That year, the ship went from Hawaii to Ensenada, MX, then did a Coastal run and was to end in Seattle. The port before Victoria was Seattle. A number of people got off in Victoria, some to avoid a PVSA violation, some because it was easier for them to get home from Victoria than going in to Seattle. This year, they went straight from Hawaii to Vancouver, but a couple of people probably still got caught in a B2B violation situation. It is sad that the law isn't amended to allow exceptions at the start and end of the season, but that would open up another can of worms.

The Victoria authorities work with the cruise line to make sure there are no PVSA violations, since a number of ships call there during the Alaska season and bring in money.

It is disappointing that the Solstice is getting in to Victoria so late in the day, but nothing to be done about it.

Is this your assumption, or is it fact? I looked at 19 CFR 4.80b which discusses penalties and did not see any mention of "knowingly", or more drastic penalties. Not trying to start an argument, just curious.

I've read numerous legal sources that state the cruiseline can lose all permits to cruise US waters if they knowingly/intentionally break the PVSA. No line is going to chance that.

Hope if works out for the OP. A lot of people were caught by this when we did Solstice last year.