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If St Petersburg Outlaws "GAY" will Atlantis still go?


SakeDad

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With the government in St Petersburg Russia on the verge of outlawing EVERYTHING gay :mad: and making it punishable with prison to even say the word, will Atlantis and other GLBTQ charters cancel the Baltic cruises? Or possibly ask the participants on those cruises to boycott St Petersburg? If you were on this cruise would you spend your gay dollars in port or stay onboard? I have been to St Petersburg and loved it. But if this law passed I would not get off to spend any of my money. Which would be a real shame as she is an amazing city.

Thoughts:confused:

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Its sad as St. Petersburg is supposed to be one of the most beautiful cities to visit on the planet. Unfortunately, if being a normal human being is considered illegal then its time to speak up and enforce your right to tell them they are wrong. One person refusing to visit won't make a difference but the more it might. ITs funny how ignorant people are hurt when it comes to the bottom line - their pockets.

 

David

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With the government in St Petersburg Russia on the verge of outlawing EVERYTHING gay :mad: and making it punishable with prison to even say the word, will Atlantis and other GLBTQ charters cancel the Baltic cruises? Or possibly ask the participants on those cruises to boycott St Petersburg? If you were on this cruise would you spend your gay dollars in port or stay onboard? I have been to St Petersburg and loved it. But if this law passed I would not get off to spend any of my money. Which would be a real shame as she is an amazing city.

Thoughts:confused:

Boy, that's a tough question. We went to Jamaica once. Filthy placy(sorry it was)If our ship goes there again, we'd stay on board & make it a "spa" day. I'd love to see St. Petersburg. Hopefully calmer heads will prevail..especially once they see tourist dollars drop. If it becomes as rampant antigay as it sounds, I'm sure a lot of "fairminded" people will choose to avoid it as well. I'd say let HRC know & investigate. They're pretty good about getting gay friendly allies involved as well.

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If true - I would not go on any vacation to St Petersburg & probably Russia .....why would I ......Like many Russia is on my bucket list..but my rights & others are of the utmost priority.....

 

When I was in my 20's I travelled to China & walked the Great wall(dream come true) - 30 years ago - after the 4 week trip throughout China I experienced first hand politicol oppression of a people by their own government - I have not been back!

 

There are many places to travel on this planet that are welcoming & beautiful on many levels...hopefully the world & St Petersburg will eveolve - for all concerned!

 

 

With the government in St Petersburg Russia on the verge of outlawing EVERYTHING gay :mad: and making it punishable with prison to even say the word, will Atlantis and other GLBTQ charters cancel the Baltic cruises? Or possibly ask the participants on those cruises to boycott St Petersburg? If you were on this cruise would you spend your gay dollars in port or stay onboard? I have been to St Petersburg and loved it. But if this law passed I would not get off to spend any of my money. Which would be a real shame as she is an amazing city.

Thoughts:confused:

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I have been to St Peterburg, and it's an amazing City. One of my best friends is from that beautiful city and she is very gay friendly. She grew up during the comunist era, fortunately she was able to attend school and her life was not as miserable, but she tells me that she had many gay frineds even during the comunist times. She tells me that this all politics. The politicians are trying to gain popularity by supporting those convervatives who are millionaries and contribute to their campains. Sounds familiar?? Just like the US.

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Unfortunately the law DID pass 29-5 at the end of February.:mad: Here is a NYTimes article on it.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/01/world/asia/anti-gay-law-stirs-fears-in-russia.html

 

It still has to be signed by the mayor but he has vowed to support it. However, he has also vowed to make St Petersburg the top tourist destination of Russia so if he gets enough pressure from tour, cruise, etc...groups, both mainstream and gay, maybe his mind can be changed. But I doubt it.:(

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A quick scan of the internet lets me know I have been to many places where it is indeed illegal to be gay. Examples include: Egypt, Jamaica, St. Lucia, Brunei, Malaysia, and Singapore. In all those places my partner and I did not feel at all threatened but then again we did not do anything to draw attention to ourselves either - we were (and are) just part of the crowd.

 

Having toured St. Petersburg in late summer last year I can tell you it is one amazing city and I for one would not let some bigotry keep me from that kind of experience.

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A quick scan of the internet lets me know I have been to many places where it is indeed illegal to be gay. Examples include: Egypt, Jamaica, St. Lucia, Brunei, Malaysia, and Singapore. In all those places my partner and I did not feel at all threatened but then again we did not do anything to draw attention to ourselves either - we were (and are) just part of the crowd.

 

A gay charter won't blend as easily due to the numbers onboard.

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It should be understood that, undemocratic as it may be, the "outlaw" is in discussing the subject of "gay" with children. It is illegal to form public pronouncement of the gay life style but they stopped short of banning being gay. Having visited St. Petersburg in both the days of the Soviets as well as under current administrations we never felt any hostility. It will take time to get them to understand and change their minds on this subject but how long has it taken North American governments to accept the subject? Centuries!

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A gay charter won't blend as easily due to the numbers onboard.

 

Good point - I think I missed that bit....that does change things significantly. (Memo to self - read don't scan :o)

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It should be understood that, undemocratic as it may be, the "outlaw" is in discussing the subject of "gay" with children. It is illegal to form public pronouncement of the gay life style but they stopped short of banning being gay.

 

Sorry, but it sounds like you're defending the law, or at least not condemning something which could, among other things, put someone at legal jeopardy for telling a 15-year-old that his same-sex feelings are OK. And I have no doubt that the forces behind this law will re-criminalize homosexuality if they can.

 

While I've visited any number of places where homosexuality has been illegal, I do try to avoid spending money in places where there are active, highly visible state-sponsored anti-gay witch hunts going on...even if they have really nice museums.

 

And, of course, there is no such thing as "the gay life style."

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As long as Atlantis doesn't change the itinerary, I'm going to St Petersburg with the other 2000 representatives of our community. While I see the point of boycotting places with anti-gay laws, I think it's a bit hypocritical to zero in on Russian politicians when our own Good Ol' USA lawmakers are almost as bad. I live in TX where the constitution was amended to outlaw recognition of same sex relationships in 2005. Not quite the same as abolishing our rights to freedom of speech, but damning nonetheless. Also the lesbian mayor of Houston is currently under fire for supporting Freedom to Marry day this past Valentine's Day and many zealots are calling for her resignation. The only way to change minds is to actively participate and work with people, not shy away and avoid the issue. Just MHO.

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Sorry, but it sounds like you're defending the law, or at least not condemning something which could, among other things, put someone at legal jeopardy for telling a 15-year-old that his same-sex feelings are OK. And I have no doubt that the forces behind this law will re-criminalize homosexuality if they can... And, of course, there is no such thing as "the gay life style."

 

The point of the discussion is the safety of the individuals touring there. Unlike Mexico we feel that safety is assured in St.Petersburg. Pontificating about the political future there, vis-a-vis homosexuality, is your right but we feel not germane. And if there is no gay life style why is this section of CC separated from the main board?

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Petersburg insists on living in the past, it will have to do so without me. I doubt I'd even keep my cruise booking. I think I'd cancel.g.php

There is so much beauty to see in St. Petersburg. Even more so if one can get to the Armory in Moscow housing for example the Faberge Eggs. Therefore, unless one’s safety is in question, we do more good than harm when traveling to a country where gay rights are marginalized by a government. We are our own ambassadors. We will no longer go to Mexico nor Jamaica based on the safety concerns. But on both visits to Russia, our tour guides were as equally impressed with us, our views and were left with a favorable impression of our life style (if in fact we have one…)

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Thank you ONT-CA for expressing my point with a better choice of words. In my experience with Atlantis cruises, the sheer number of "ambassadors" is a formidable force to convince folks that we are not monsters or weirdos. We kill em with kindness as a lot of straight people in port and on the ship see that we are ordinary folk who like to have fun in many of the same ways they do. Crew members have commented that we tend to be easier to please and very pleasant and respectful to them--regardless of their national origin . . . (Should we consider not tipping crewmembers from Jamaica, Russia, and all other countries we are expected to boycott because of the laws? How far does this "gay dollar talk" go?)

 

Also, I think it is of considerable note that the law in St. Petersburg was passed by politicians not by the public. That indicates to me that our gay charter can show the general Russian public that maybe their politicians are misinformed on the gay "lifestyle". Since the TX amendment was approved by the great citizens of the Republic, good luck changing the mind of some middle-of-nowhere West Texan . . .

 

Bottom line, if the Eurodam stops in St. Petersburg, I'm gonna be walking the streets being the best ambassador I can be and enjoying two days of Russian culture and interaction

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The point of the discussion is the safety of the individuals touring there. Unlike Mexico we feel that safety is assured in St.Petersburg. Pontificating about the political future there, vis-a-vis homosexuality, is your right but we feel not germane. And if there is no gay life style why is this section of CC separated from the main board?

 

Actually, the "point of the discussion," going back to the clear concerns of the original post, is spending money is such an overtly anti-gay place, not staying safe.

 

And if there is "a gay lifestyle," what does it consist of? Going to the Opera? Dressing fabulously? Referring to oneself with the royal "we?"

 

The idea of a unitary "gay life style" is silly, since it would have to encompass the lives of a working class Ugandan, a celibate gay drag queen in Amsterdam, a non-monogamous San Francisco leatherman, a gay married couple in Mexico City, a closeted high school punk rocker in Texas, a gay activist in St. Petersburg, and that rich guy who started PayPal. And a lifestyle is a matter of choice, even whim, like choosing china patterns. I know you're not big on political discussions, but it's a fact that the term is more often used by our oppressors than by us, just as the "merely trying to protect children" trope is homophobic tripe.

 

As the saying goes, "I don't have a lifestyle, I have a life."

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With the government in St Petersburg Russia on the verge of outlawing EVERYTHING gay :mad: and making it punishable with prison to even say the word, will Atlantis and other GLBTQ charters cancel the Baltic cruises? ...Thoughts:confused:

 

I would call this a concern for security

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I would call this a concern for security

 

Well, we just don't give up, do we? Nice how your ellipsis papered over the rest of the post, viz: "Or possibly ask the participants on those cruises to boycott St Petersburg? If you were on this cruise would you spend your gay dollars in port or stay onboard? I have been to St Petersburg and loved it. But if this law passed I would not get off to spend any of my money." So I would call the point of the post not the OP expressing concern for his personal safety, but whether or not we should spend gay money in homophobic ports.

 

Which is actually an interesting question. There are two aspects to an individual boycotting a port. First, if enough people boycott, there might be enough of an economic impact for a government to reconsider its policy. For that to happen, there has to be an organized, publicized boycott, so the 'phobes know what him 'em. One complicating factor in many of these cases, however, from Russia to Africa, is that gay rights are viewed as decadent Westerners throwing their weight around to Destroy Noble Civilization, and boycotts can be viewed as attacks that make the 'phobes even more adamant.

 

The second factor, though, is qualms over one's giving money, be it ever so slight an amount, to one's sworn enemies. I generally feel better if I don't. (It's why, for instance, I would never eat at Chick-fil-a.)

 

I faced this sort of quandry years ago when I visited Burma, which many activists, including Aung San Suu Kyi, urged we not travel to. I rationalized going as person-to-person diplomacy, and resolved to give as little money as possible to the government and patronize private citizens instead. I did my best, though a few of my kyat no doubt went to the enforcement of slave labor. I must confess, though that I never did live up to my resolution to be a pro-Burma activist when I got back to the USA. And though my four weeks there were terrific, I'm still very ambivalent about visiting when I did.

 

Be my guilt as it may, I do find the idea of us visiting Rotten Places in order to serve as goodwill ambassadors to be a little ingenuous. "Oh, da, look at the nice, well-dressed rich homosexual visitors visiting the Hermitage and buying duty-free Stoli to take back to their ship. Look at how well-groomed and polite they are! Our native homosexuals are no such thing, which is why I threw rocks at them. But now I know my Church-endorsed, nativist hatred certainly was misdirected!" Ain't gonna happen. Really. Ain't. (Not any more, comes to that, than our President's demeanor and intelligence has made our own racists reform.) But if it makes you feel better to think so whilst on your way to see the Fabergé eggs, wearing your discreet HRC-symbol T shirt, have fun. (I will give you extra cred if you hold hands iwth your boyfriend while doing sok, though.) Hey, if you really want to make a difference, take the money you'd spend on gay-basher borscht and give it to ILGA instead.Or spend more than a whirlwind day on tour and get in touch with and support the Russian activists on the ground.

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I guess we don't

 

ONT-CA, I wasn't going to post on this thread although I am a Russophile and thought it interesting, but too much dramatic (and misinformed) reaction for me.

 

I know nothing of this new law, but I spent 2 weeks in St. Petersburg and Moscow and can say without reservation that to compare Russia in terms of homophobia to Africa, the Caribbean or even the USA is way off the mark. For one thing, the more ignorant aspects of Judeo-Christianity of the west and it's colonies does not permeate Russia. There are many devout Christians, almost all of the Russian Orthodox variety, but for the most part, religion is of no consequence or importance to most Russians and certainly does not have the societal influence it does in the west.

 

I agree with your comments and commend you for them. I can't wait until I can visit Russia again.

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