Advise after going - Credit card usage in Europe

I had read somewhere that you needed a pin number when using a credit card in some countries in Europe along with a chip credit card. I called my credit card company (Chase) and they assured me that I didn't need a pin.

Thank the good Lord I took my bank card that DOES have a pin. If you need to use any of the automated machines in Europe, you MUST have a pin number. This goes to using the bus & train ticket machines as well as the ATM machines.

Also, be sure to let your credit card and bank card people know what countries and dates you will be in so you don't get denied.

I had read somewhere that you needed a pin number when using a credit card in some countries in Europe along with a chip credit card. I called my credit card company (Chase) and they assured me that I didn't need a pin.

 

Thank the good Lord I took my bank card that DOES have a pin. If you need to use any of the automated machines in Europe, you MUST have a pin number. This goes to using the bus & train ticket machines as well as the ATM machines.

 

Also, be sure to let your credit card and bank card people know what countries and dates you will be in so you don't get denied.

Great advice! Thank you!

For those with Bank of America and Discover cards - pins can be set up on the internet by logging into your account.

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I had read somewhere that you needed a pin number when using a credit card in some countries in Europe along with a chip credit card. I called my credit card company (Chase) and they assured me that I didn't need a pin.

 

Thank the good Lord I took my bank card that DOES have a pin. If you need to use any of the automated machines in Europe, you MUST have a pin number. This goes to using the bus & train ticket machines as well as the ATM machines.

 

Also, be sure to let your credit card and bank card people know what countries and dates you will be in so you don't get denied.

This is all sound advice that has been discussed almost daily here. But all true.

The key is unstaffed charge locations, like self serve gas stations and train station ticket machines. Those are the mandatory PIN and chip locations. We travel with our preferred card (chip and signature ), and a back up PIN and chip card. Have never had a problem in 15 or 20 trips to Europe.

I had read somewhere that you needed a pin number when using a credit card in some countries in Europe along with a chip credit card. I called my credit card company (Chase) and they assured me that I didn't need a pin.

 

Thank the good Lord I took my bank card that DOES have a pin. If you need to use any of the automated machines in Europe, you MUST have a pin number. This goes to using the bus & train ticket machines as well as the ATM machines.

You've used two labels: bank card and credit card. Each of these cards does different things and different rules apply to their use. The names should not be used interchangeably.

Bank cards typically refer to a card that allows someone to access his/her own funds. (The more common name is ATM card.) Yes, you'll need a bank card with PIN to use an ATM/cash point in Europe, but you need one in the US so that shouldn't be a surprise or a problem. (Debit cards are a different, hybrid, category. Since the OP didn't mention them, I won't either.)

Credit cards allow a person to pay a merchant/service provider on a delayed and indirect basis. The issuer of the credit card makes a direct payment to the merchant/service provider. The card holder pays the bank, typically on a regular basis for all goods and services purchased that month. (Using a credit card to get money is called a cash advance and is a very, very expensive way to get money while traveling. Definitely not recommended)

Based on what you've written, you asked Chase about your credit card, the person who answered was largely correct. Assuming they added the phrase, "as long as you are dealing with a human" their advice was good. There are lots of threads about this topic and most cruisers can vouch for the fact they did not need a PIN when dealing with a human.

The safe advice for dealing with untended ticket machines is that you will need a credit card with a PIN, but even that answer isn't actually 100% true. Since many Baltic cruises depart from Southampton, the fact that automated machines in Tube Stations in London dispense tickets without the use of a PIN is useful information. The automated ticket machine in the VASA museum did require a PIN, but as of 2015, all instructions were in Finnish so you might not want to use that even with a PIN.

Also, be sure to let your credit card and bank card people know what countries and dates you will be in so you don't get denied.

Always excellent advice.

A chip card with a pin was required in Rotterdam train station last fall. The line for a ticket booth with an agent was very long and slow so we missed Amsterdam.

We didn't have any other problems with a chip only card on our Baltic cruise last fall.

If you move away from the main tourist areas you will quite quickly find that even when dealing with a person you will struggle without a pin.

They are so well established nowadays round here that places who don't regularly get visited by tourists (especially from the US) rarely, if ever, have to deal with a non pin card.

Some places won't have the facilities to accept such cards and, even if they do there is a chance that the person serving you won't actually know how to do it.

If you move away from the main tourist areas you will quite quickly find that even when dealing with a person you will struggle without a pin.

 

They are so well established nowadays round here that places who don't regularly get visited by tourists (especially from the US) rarely, if ever, have to deal with a non pin card.

Some places won't have the facilities to accept such cards and, even if they do there is a chance that the person serving you won't actually know how to do it.[/quote

 

Oh please. It ain't brain surgery. The cashier makes no decisions on this. You insert your card and if it's from the USA, even if it has pin capabilities, the message will flash "signature required" and a signature slip will be printed. The cashier does nothing. I am sure anybody with an elementary school education can figure out he or she needs to find a writing utensil for you to sign the slip. I find it hard to imagine there will be a problem at a personneled pos terminal using a USA credit card which will almost surely be signature preferred in any case even if the bank issues pins for the card.

 

As far as kiosks and automated gas pumps are concerned, yes unfortunately there are still some merchants who are in violation of mastercaard/visa regulations which state all cards must be honored even if they lack pins. Nothing you can do as mastercard/visa do not nake all that much of an effort to enforce their own rules. Solution is to, even if not your primary card, to get a card from the small number of banks that issue credit cards with pin capabilities just in case but let's not make is seem this is an overwhelming problem. Inconvenient if it happens to you at a bad moment. Absolutely but there's little any of us can do about it.

You've used two labels: bank card and credit card. Each of these cards does different things and different rules apply to their use. The names should not be used interchangeably.

 

Bank cards typically refer to a card that allows someone to access his/her own funds. (The more common name is ATM card.) Yes, you'll need a bank card with PIN to use an ATM/cash point in Europe, but you need one in the US so that shouldn't be a surprise or a problem. (Debit cards are a different, hybrid, category. Since the OP didn't mention them, I won't either.)

 

Credit cards allow a person to pay a merchant/service provider on a delayed and indirect basis. The issuer of the credit card makes a direct payment to the merchant/service provider. The card holder pays the bank, typically on a regular basis for all goods and services purchased that month. (Using a credit card to get money is called a cash advance and is a very, very expensive way to get money while traveling. Definitely not recommended)

 

Based on what you've written, you asked Chase about your credit card, the person who answered was largely correct. Assuming they added the phrase, "as long as you are dealing with a human" their advice was good. There are lots of threads about this topic and most cruisers can vouch for the fact they did not need a PIN when dealing with a human.

 

The safe advice for dealing with untended ticket machines is that you will need a credit card with a PIN, but even that answer isn't actually 100% true. Since many Baltic cruises depart from Southampton, the fact that automated machines in Tube Stations in London dispense tickets without the use of a PIN is useful information. The automated ticket machine in the VASA museum did require a PIN, but as of 2015, all instructions were in Finnish so you might not want to use that even with a PIN.

 

 

Always excellent advice.

Really? Somehow I thought the Vasa museum was in Stockholm in Sweden and the national language of Sweden is Swedish.

Really? Somehow I thought the Vasa museum was in Stockholm in Sweden and the national language of Sweden is Swedish.

Absolutely correct! Glad you caught my goof!

Oh please. It ain't brain surgery. The cashier makes no decisions on this.

 

 

 

The cashier certainly does make a decision on this.

 

At the basic level that decision is "can I be bothered with this?"

 

I have seen on more than one occasion people trying to use a non pin card and it being a problem. At least one I have seen people walk out of the shop without their purchases.

 

Pin cards are so well established here that some people who work in shops will never have had anyone try to use a non pin card. Some people under about 30 are pretty well unaware that such cards exist.

 

However easy it may be for the systems to deal with it, the reaction from the shop staff if likely to be "hang on, I don't know how to do this, I'll need to get a supervisor".

 

Most people will be absolutely fine without a pin card. My point is that you are running a risk of it being an annoyance, especially if you move off of the tourist track. You may not believe it, but my experience of being in the queue behind such examples is enough evidence for me that it is a possibility, albeit not all that common.

 

If the same terminals can generally do the job now then that's an improvement, but I've certainly seem different equipment having to be used for signature cards fairly recently, so that doesn't seem to be universal.

Just sailing back into Copenhagen from a Baltic Sea cruise and we did use chip credit cards in Copenhagen, Stockholm, Tallinn, St. Petersburg and Helsinki. We never had to provide our PIN number we just had to sign the credit slip. We had notified our card providers that we would be in these countries before we left.

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The cashier certainly does make a decision on this.

 

At the basic level that decision is "can I be bothered with this?"

 

I have seen on more than one occasion people trying to use a non pin card and it being a problem. At least one I have seen people walk out of the shop without their purchases.

 

Pin cards are so well established here that some people who work in shops will never have had anyone try to use a non pin card. Some people under about 30 are pretty well unaware that such cards exist.

 

However easy it may be for the systems to deal with it, the reaction from the shop staff if likely to be "hang on, I don't know how to do this, I'll need to get a supervisor".

 

Most people will be absolutely fine without a pin card. My point is that you are running a risk of it being an annoyance, especially if you move off of the tourist track. You may not believe it, but my experience of being in the queue behind such examples is enough evidence for me that it is a possibility, albeit not all that common.

 

If the same terminals can generally do the job now then that's an improvement, but I've certainly seem different equipment having to be used for signature cards fairly recently, so that doesn't seem to be universal.

 

Keith...I am not looking to start a verbal spat with you. Chip and signature cards are indistinguishable from chip and pin cards. They are inserted in the same terminal. The only difference comes in when the transaction is processed, you get a message to enter pin with chip and pin or get a message with signature required with a chip and signature. At that point the transaction has been processed and needs finishing off. Frankly it is a bigger problem for a merchant at this point to void the transaction if they don't want to do signatures and I doubt if merchants want to go through with that. Yes there was a time before USA cards had chips that merchants' terminals might not be able to process magnetic strip cards but that's in the past. Now if a merchant wishes to hassle somebody who has no control over whether his or her card requests a pin or a signature, that doesn't make any sense to me but if you want to insist there are places where this happens, I can't argue with you. Again, whatever difficulties one might have with chip and signature cards will almost surely be at kiosks not at pos terminals with human attendants. The final point is that unfortunately most USA banks do not issue pins for use with purchases. They will issue pins for their cards but in most cases they will not work for purchases; they are for cash advances in ATM's which are usually not a good idea.

 

The issue is far more complex, unfortunately, than to pin or signature. The USA banks for the most part are very obstinate that pins are not necessary for purchases.

 

 

 

Keith...I am not looking to start a verbal spat with you. Chip and signature cards are indistinguishable from chip and pin cards. They are inserted in the same terminal. The only difference comes in when the transaction is processed, you get a message to enter pin with chip and pin or get a message with signature required with a chip and signature. At that point the transaction has been processed and needs finishing off. Frankly it is a bigger problem for a merchant at this point to void the transaction if they don't want to do signatures and I doubt if merchants want to go through with that. Yes there was a time before USA cards had chips that merchants' terminals might not be able to process magnetic strip cards but that's in the past. Now if a merchant wishes to hassle somebody who has no control over whether his or her card requests a pin or a signature, that doesn't make any sense to me but if you want to insist there are places where this happens, I can't argue with you. Again, whatever difficulties one might have with chip and signature cards will almost surely be at kiosks not at pos terminals with human attendants. The final point is that unfortunately most USA banks do not issue pins for use with purchases. They will issue pins for their cards but in most cases they will not work for purchases; they are for cash advances in ATM's which are usually not a good idea.

 

 

 

The issue is far more complex, unfortunately, than to pin or signature. The USA banks for the most part are very obstinate that pins are not necessary for purchases.

 

 

 

No, I don't want an argument either. Im sure that you are absolutely correct with what you say.

 

My only point is that, despite that and for whatever reason, I know that it does have the potential to be a problem because I have seen it be a problem.

 

Unfortunately, some shop staff are unwilling to do things that seem unusual without getting their supervisor involved. Apple Pay still has the potential of sending people into a blind panic, and when it was first introduced I had a couple of people who wouldn't let me near the contactless terminal with my watch until they had checked with someone else that it was ok.

 

The biggest problem I have recently seen anyone have with this was probably about a year ago. The person in front of me said he didn't have a pin and a supervisor said that they had a different machine for that, but it was broken. Whether that was true or not, I don't know. However, their best advice was directions to the nearest ATM.

 

That was a long way from anywhere that someone is likely to visit on a cruise, but it does happen.

... My only point is that, despite that and for whatever reason, I know that it does have the potential to be a problem because I have seen it be a problem....

 

No one is disputing the fact that a PIN-less credit has the potential to be a problem. What we're debating is the cost-risk benefit.

 

When I write "cost" I'm not referring to actual money. In the US, access to a true chip and PIN card is restricted to a very few banks. (Matha is the expert on those names and who may qualify for their card). Somewhat more common is a card that defaults to signature but actually has an assigned PIN that will work when necessary. This card is primarily, but not exclusively, issued by credit unions. (I have a hybrid PIN card; I was a member of the issuing credit union decades before I obtained my card.)

 

The risk is well discussed on this board. Even you use pretty tepid phrases: "more than once" and "has the potentional".

 

Europeans who will routinely be issued a true PIN credit card cannot imagine the time and energy US cruiser will spend locating a true or hybrid PIN credit card. For most of us, the cost-risk benefit doesn't compute.

 

No one is disputing the fact that a PIN-less credit has the potential to be a problem. What we're debating is the cost-risk benefit.

 

 

Well, actually someone did dispute that when I wrote it. That's why I'm still involved in this thread.

 

When I originally posted it was an aside that I wasn't expecting to result in any great debate.

I would support Keith Jenner on this. It's not a problem in London or at main tourist sites, however out of town I have seen the decline of non pin cards, especially where

US tourists are unusual, or with younger staff unaware of other routes, or not bothered to go the extra mile.

I have raised this before, but in the sticks this may be an issue. We only live 35 miles out of London. No under 30's will have seen or dealt with a non pin card, unless use to Americans , so may assume its refusal is sign of a dodgy card.

In the country it's hard at times to get a signal on some card machines, which only work at one place in say a country pub, often having to be held near a window etc. They will not fit into this.

I would support Keith Jenner on this. It's not a problem in London or at main tourist sites, however out of town I have seen the decline of non pin cards, especially where US tourists are unusual, or with younger staff unaware of other routes, or not bothered to go the extra mile.

One big issue that's being ignored in this thread is context. If you and Keith were sharing these insights on travel site where the participants were planning land travel with extended periods away from the main tourist sites you'd be receiving very different responses. However, you're posting on a cruise web site.

Cruising mean the visitors are going to be restricted on how far afield they can go given the hours in port. In the case of ports that are far from the top destination (e.g. Warnemunde for Berlin) visitors are going to spend their money once they've arrived at the real tourist site, or, as is the case of Warnemunde, that town itself has gotten used to US cruisers with their PIN-less credit cards.

I'm struggling to think of a place a cruiser might choose to go via a cruise ship that will present the degree of credit card problem you describe. I'd be happy to hear the names of towns you think cruisers will visit where we'll have trouble with credit cards.

Many people start or end cruises in the UK, and they start at Harwich, Southampton ,Dover or other UK ports which are off the main tourist trail. Then again many spend time before and after in the UK.

Lots of threads talk of trips out to Stonehenge, Bath etc where these can be a problem. Especially if local country pubs are used, or local shops. I accept you won't have a problem at Harrods, or central London hotels.

Surely the issue is with US banks if the travelling classes, left them in enough numbers, and voted with their feet, they would have to follow other countries in bringing in chip/pin cards. They became accepted in the UK as this cut back on cc fraud .

Many people start or end cruises in the UK, and they start at Harwich, Southampton ,Dover or other UK ports which are off the main tourist trail. Then again many spend time before and after in the UK.

Lots of threads talk of trips out to Stonehenge, Bath etc where these can be a problem. Especially if local country pubs are used, or local shops. I accept you won't have a problem at Harrods, or central London hotels.

Surely the issue is with US banks if the travelling classes, left them in enough numbers, and voted with their feet, they would have to follow other countries in bringing in chip/pin cards. They became accepted in the UK as this cut back on cc fraud .

I will grant every word you say but there's a small problem. There is nowhere to turn in the USA. The overwhelming majority of banks have simply rejected pin preferred cards. Where do you suggest people to turn?

I'm not here to argue or tell anybody they are wrong so forgive me. I have travelled extensively in the UK even to some non touristy places. I have never once had any difficulty using my signature preferred card anywhere. Maybe I'm just lucky. As I've said, I have changed my mind on this to a small degree. It is probably advantageous even if one's primary card makes no provision for pins to carry a card with pin capabilities just in case. But these cards will always defer to signature at a point of sales terminal. What do you suggest people do if indeed this is a problem? And btw as an aside, when the UK went to chip and pin in 2005, there were objections from some groups representing the handicapped that this might be an impediment to say visually handicapped people from using cards. A provision was made in the law that British banks must do something to prevent this from happening. The solution? Chip and signature. There are some British cards that are chip and signature; true not many but some.

One must simply bear in mind that the size of the USA card payment system is light years larger than elsewhere. Competition is heavy. Merchants have complained about how costly it would be to set up new terminals with provisions for pins especially say at restaurants. It's just something we Americans have to roll with. I still feel, in all due respect, the problem is far from overwhelming but do recognize if it happens to me, it stinks. There is no solution.

Many people start or end cruises in the UK, and they start at Harwich, Southampton ,Dover or other UK ports which are off the main tourist trail.

From my perspective, among cruisers departing from Harwich, Dover, and Southampton, all the lovely stops at Stonehenge, Bath, Windsor, etc are every bit as much a part of the main tourist trail as London itself. (Since Bath and Windsor are super-easy day trips from London, I see them as very much part of the main tourist trail for land travelers, too.)

Lots of threads talk of trips out to Stonehenge, Bath etc where these can be a problem. Especially if local country pubs are used, or local shops.

Apparently, we see what confirms our own point of view. I don't recall lots of threads complaining about problems with US credit cards and yet you do! (I see lots of threads worrying about traveling without a PIN card, but the overwhelming responses have been reassuring.) Beyond that, my own experience confirms my point of view.

I'll add to what Matha has already written. About four years ago, there was a real sense of panic on the port of call boards. US cruisers were certain we were about to have major trouble traveling internationally without true PIN credit cards. Board regulars spent inordinate amounts of time on the phone calling banks to locate true PIN cards and posting details of their failed attempts. I know my husband and I certainly logged in hours on this project. At some point, perhaps in response to our phone inquiries, I remember getting letters from two banks about new cards which touted compatibility in European charge machines. When each card arrived there was no randomly assigned PIN. Our angry follow-up phone calls were met with optimistic assurances that the cards would work despite the absence of a PIN. And the reality is that the cards did work in places like Oxford and Canterbury, at manned train counters for both Eurostar and small regional lines (e.g. Southeastern Railway).

Two years went by and, as I've mentioned, I acquired a card that defaults to signature but has a working PIN backup. We spent one week in London prior to our Baltic cruise without ever needing the PIN once. At our second port call, Ghent, we choose a restaurant because of its reputation, but it had the added bonus of offering a trial run for my PIN. The restaurant had a neat sign stuck on the window and a duplicate on the hostess stand that read, "We do not accept credit cards without a PIN number." At the end of the meal, I offered my credit card with anticipation. Instead of being handed the device to key in my PIN, the machine spit out a paper receipt for my signature. So much for "We do not accept..."

Bottom line: US banks have stonewalled requests to make PIN cards part of the routine American banking experience. In turn, European banks have responded by accepting PIN-less American cards despite everyone's acknowledging their security shortcomings.

Surely the issue is with US banks if the travelling classes, left them in enough numbers, and voted with their feet, they would have to follow other countries in bringing in chip/pin cards. They became accepted in the UK as this cut back on cc fraud .

There are no other US banks to turn to. Even the few banks that give out PIN when they are used they are chip/signature. I have a PIN and have never had to enter it. Even in Europe I have never been asked for the PIN. Was not asked for a PIN at a local pub in Bath.

The current VISA payment processing specifications require the processing equipment to be able to default to a signature. That may be why so many people are not having issues -> European payment processing is handling the switch to a printout on manned stations. On unmanned stations, there's no one to TAKE the printout, so the equipment can't handle the If-Then-Else logic of automation. (VISA specs are published on the visa.com site if you also care to cure your insomnia or boredom or even curiosity)

Either way, I'll be carrying a pen with me to sign receipts. :) Thankfully, my cards are finally chipped, though I had to insist in the past few months.

Oh please. It ain't brain surgery. The cashier makes no decisions on this. You insert your card and if it's from the USA, even if it has pin capabilities, the message will flash "signature required" and a signature slip will be printed.

This is not necessarily true. I live in Denmark and I can't use my US card in most places because it keeps prompting for a PIN and if the cashier doesn't know how to override it, then there's no way around it. Some places on the beaten track in Aarhus, which is a cruise ship port, can handle it, but off the beaten track (even in Aarhus) is a different story.

This is not necessarily true. I live in Denmark and I can't use my US card in most places because it keeps prompting for a PIN and if the cashier doesn't know how to override it, then there's no way around it. Some places on the beaten track in Aarhus, which is a cruise ship port, can handle it, but off the beaten track (even in Aarhus) is a different story.

I have been in shops where a US customer has been served by a young shop assistant who is not sure how to deal with a US issued CC and has to get somebody to help.

What I really don't understand is why US banks don't automatically issue chip and pin cards when sending a new card. I find not having chip and pin very backward , plus it stopped a lot of card fraud in Europe.

This is not necessarily true. I live in Denmark and I can't use my US card in most places because it keeps prompting for a PIN and if the cashier doesn't know how to override it, then there's no way around it. Some places on the beaten track in Aarhus, which is a cruise ship port, can handle it, but off the beaten track (even in Aarhus) is a different story.

We're probably not going to get past this impasse. You're one of several European based posters who keep warning US cruisers about the difficulty we'll encounter. And US cruisers keep posting that with some very limited exceptions they've had no difficulty using their PIN-less credit cards.

During port calls and pre- and post-cruise visits, apparently, we're going places where the merchants are prepared to cope with US credit cards. For cruisers -- see Post #5 -- who may have to choose between long lines and unmanned ticket machines, there is a third option. In advance, go online to buy your tickets. Your US credit card will work just fine at online sites if you notify your bank about the transaction, the way you notify them about the dates of the trip. (RailEurope.com gives travelers access to the schedule for 50 different train companies. Yes, the cost of a ticket purchased via Rail Europe is more expensive than the same ticket purchased at the station, but Rail Europe ensures that you avoid any credit card anxiety or long line tie-ups.)