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Hawaii; Cruise to or Fly then Cruise??


IRL_Joanie

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I've searched all the boards and could not find this question anywhere.

 

Hubby is already talking of doing another cruise in 2011 for Hawaii (all on HAL of course.)

 

I am one who loves the relaxing days at sea, so the 15 day r/t San Diego (or other West Coast Port) Hawaii looks perfect to me.

 

Hubby on the other hand, has read/heard that it might be better to fly to Hawaii and then get a cruise around the islands.

 

Which would you take and why??

 

Joanie

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We did the 15 day rt last Nov. aboard the Zaandam. We'd do it again in a heartbeat! Sea days are so relaxing, and we enjoyed the ports of call. We rented cars and did our own excursions. A little research in advance made it easy to decide what we wanted to see/do at each island. We talk about doing it again, and maybe staying aboard the entire time. Love those HAL ships!

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Agree with Marion. We did the same tour on the Zaandam a couple of years ago ... In a sense it is broken up like three trips in one -- sea days, island hopping and sea days. I expected not to like the itin at all, but to be honest it was probably one of our best trips out of cruising out of the US.

 

Scott.

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I love HAL ships, but if the object is to see Hawaii, then flying into Hawaii a few days early cruising then staying a few days after is great; but only NCL has a ship that stays in Hawaii. The reviews of this ship have been very good now that if is the only one doing this itinerary.

 

But since you like HAL and sea days, the 15 day sailing would probably be your best option.

 

Just a note that if you seriously think of NCL, the suites are amazing along with the butler service. Have fun planning :D

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If you fly to Hawaii and just get a cruise around the islands, you will have to sail NCL because they are the only major cruiseline that begins and ends in Hawaii, doing 7-day cruises. There have been mixed reviews on the Pride and the Hawaii cruises, but the NCL board would be a better place to research that.

 

HAL, like some other cruiselines, does the Hawaiian itinerary as part of a longer voyage which includes a stop at a non-US port. So, if you have a preference for cruiselines, that might be a consideration.

 

Other than that, it boils down to your liking or tolerance for sea days vs. a port intensive trip.

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I've searched all the boards and could not find this question anywhere.

 

Hubby is already talking of doing another cruise in 2011 for Hawaii (all on HAL of course.)

 

I am one who loves the relaxing days at sea, so the 15 day r/t San Diego (or other West Coast Port) Hawaii looks perfect to me.

 

Hubby on the other hand, has read/heard that it might be better to fly to Hawaii and then get a cruise around the islands.

 

Which would you take and why??

 

Joanie

 

[/quote]

 

I forgot to ask about excursions and how easy to get around in a scooter.

 

I would love to see the volcano (cannot remember its' name), Arizona Memorial, and so much more, but cannot walk more than 120 feet, so need to use my scooter for everywhere I go.

 

Also, how expensive are taxi's and are they numerous or easy to find? Hubby may wish to rent a handicap vehicle, but also need to know their availability and cost??

 

Thanks all, will keep checking this thread for your thoughts and experiences.

 

I will pass on to hubby the NCL info. But, I am a HAL lover and have no wish to try another line. But... hubby pays so I gots to go where he goes:(

 

Joanie

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Another option is Carnival. Back in 2007, I did an Ensenada to Hawaii cruise (5 days across the Pacific) and then 7 days in the islands. Flew back from Honolulu. It was 12 days, so if vacation time is at a premium, this knocks a few days off HAL's itinerary, plus it's a cheaper option.

 

Roz

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Please keep in mind that beginning in 2010 HAL is cutting the Hawaiian cruises back to 14 days -- thus making it exactly a 2 week sailing -- leaving and arriving back in San Diego on the same day of the week.

Kona is the port being cut out.

We did this cruise in 2006 on the Amsterdam -- April/May -- nothing but rain. Many tours were cancelled.

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We have done both--HAL for long, and NCL for cruise around the islands. Our HAL was not so enjoyable, because ocean was very rough both ways. Swimming pool was drained, because of splashing entire Lido area, doors were closed on Promenade because seas were so rough they didn't want people outside, etc.

 

We enjoyed the 7 days on NCL--which is really just a floating hotel because entire 7 day cruise is spent in the islands.

 

Suggest you might check the Hawaii (Ports of Call) section of Cruise Critic and do your research there. Many threads addressing this very subject.

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Please keep in mind that beginning in 2010 HAL is cutting the Hawaiian cruises back to 14 days -- thus making it exactly a 2 week sailing -- leaving and arriving back in San Diego on the same day of the week.

 

Kona is the port being cut out.

 

We did this cruise in 2006 on the Amsterdam -- April/May -- nothing but rain. Many tours were cancelled.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Krazy Kruizers!! I remember reading somewhere that HAL was taking Kona out of the picture.

 

14 days is good for me. It is the time to relax and see a few really great places there that matter.:)

 

So, when is the best time of year to go??

 

I seem to remember just a couple weeks ago that there was a typhoon warning for Hawaii?

 

I want to enjoy the cruise and excursions and not have to worry about rain constantly. If they have monsoonal season, i.e., rain every afternoon from 1-3 and then clear, I can deal with that. But constant rain... YUCH!!

 

Joanie

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We have done both--HAL for long' date=' and NCL for cruise around the islands. Our HAL was not so enjoyable, because ocean was very rough both ways. Swimming pool was drained, because of splashing entire Lido area, doors were closed on Promenade because seas were so rough they didn't want people outside, etc.

 

We enjoyed the 7 days on NCL--which is really just a floating hotel because entire 7 day cruise is spent in the islands.

 

Suggest you might check the Hawaii (Ports of Call) section of Cruise Critic and do your research there. Many threads addressing this very subject.[/quote']

 

 

Thank you Cruz'n Couple I will do that. I prefer though the HAL ships, but will check the other boards, as you suggested using the search you mentionedHawaii (Ports of Call).

 

 

Joanie

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We have been to Islands of Hawaii several times and in my opinion the ideal time to go is Jan. or Feb., especially if you are interested in whale watching. The Humpback whales winter here and you will see lots of mothers and babies. We have been lucky with ideal weather at this time, some rain usually lasting an hour or less and not cold. If you decide to fly over and sail NCL plan to stay several additional days on whichever island appeals the most.

 

We did the fly and sail NCL once, on the Pride of America and while the itinerary was wonderful the ship definitely was not. The rooms were small and cramped, the veranda not large enough to sit out on and food in the main dining rooms was very poor. My sil and I both tried every day to get reservations in the specialty dining rooms and neither of us were ever able to do so. Hint, just show up at a specialty restaurant and tell the desk that you were unable to make reservations. We finally did that the last two nights and were able to get in within 15 minutes. Food in the specialty restaurants was quite good.

Service in general was far, far below the level of service on any of our 6 HAL cruises to date.

 

Whatever you decide, enjoy the Islands, they are wonderful.

 

P.S. I am a native New Mexican having been born and raised in Carlsbad.

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We have been to Islands of Hawaii several times and in my opinion the ideal time to go is Jan. or Feb., especially if you are interested in whale watching. The Humpback whales winter here and you will see lots of mothers and babies. We have been lucky with ideal weather at this time, some rain usually lasting an hour or less and not cold. If you decide to fly over and sail NCL plan to stay several additional days on whichever island appeals the most.

 

We did the fly and sail NCL once, on the Pride of America and while the itinerary was wonderful the ship definitely was not. The rooms were small and cramped, the veranda not large enough to sit out on and food in the main dining rooms was very poor. My sil and I both tried every day to get reservations in the specialty dining rooms and neither of us were ever able to do so. Hint, just show up at a specialty restaurant and tell the desk that you were unable to make reservations. We finally did that the last two nights and were able to get in within 15 minutes. Food in the specialty restaurants was quite good.

Service in general was far, far below the level of service on any of our 6 HAL cruises to date.

 

Whatever you decide, enjoy the Islands, they are wonderful.

 

P.S. I am a native New Mexican having been born and raised in Carlsbad.

 

 

Thanks Lazey1

 

Those months would work great for us.:)

 

I had forgotten about the whales wintering there!!! Glad you mentioned it. That is another draw for us.:D

 

As to Carnival, that and Disney are the 2 cruise lines I refuse to consider. My own opinion, so please no one yell at me for it.

 

I just tried to check on HAL's web site for info on 2011 Hawaii cruises and they only have through December 2010 and all have either 15 or 16 day lengths and none go r/t to San Diego they return to either Ensanada, Mexico or Vacouver, BC. I want to return to the same port I left from since I will have medical equipment being delivered and picked up via my insurance company.

 

Joanie

 

P.S. Love the Caverns!!! Did not care to much for the city itself though. Did you hear that White City is up for sale??

 

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I have never cruised on Carnival. I was referring to Norwegian Cruise Line/Norwegian/American. The name of the ship we were on was the Pride of America. I believe it is still in Hawaii. NCL has pulled their other 2 ships from Hawaii, the Pride of Aloha and the Pride of Hawaii. I believe the poor service was because the crew was almost all American and did not have the same work ethic as we were used to on HAL.:rolleyes:

 

Please check out the actual itinerary on the Hal site. I found several 14 day cruises listed as San Diego to Ensenada that are actually r/t San Diego in Nov and Dec. 010. Nothing yet for 2011.:)

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I have never cruised on Carnival. I was referring to Norwegian Cruise Line/Norwegian/American. The name of the ship we were on was the Pride of America. I believe it is still in Hawaii. NCL has pulled their other 2 ships from Hawaii, the Pride of Aloha and the Pride of Hawaii. I believe the poor service was because the crew was almost all American and did not have the same work ethic as we were used to on HAL.:rolleyes:

 

Please check out the actual itinerary on the Hal site. I found several 14 day cruises listed as San Diego to Ensenada that are actually r/t San Diego in Nov and Dec. 010. Nothing yet for 2011.:)

 

 

I know you were referencing NCL, Lazey1. I was just mentioning the other 2 because if they offered Hawaii R/T's out of the West Coast I was not even going to consider them

 

Sorry, I have a habit of omitting something important:mad:

 

Yeah, I went back and viewed the itinerary details of the HAL cruises and saw the last day is Ensanada to San Diego. It just was not plain until you did the details.

 

Thanks for the info

 

Joanie

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I tried to find my thread about our Hawaiian tours -- but they are gone -- a lot of things have disappeared when this site crashed down once and then got a new server.

So I will have to copy and paste information from another site since I can't do a direct link from them -- not prohibited here.

Honolulu - we were a few minutes late arriving here during a mild shower. Originally we were to have been at Pier 2 - near nothing. The crew told us that many times the ship has been docked at Pier 19 - really far away from everything. They hate both those piers as there are no telephones there for them to call home. We were eating breakfast in the King’s Room and were pleasantly surprised to see that we docked at Pier 11 - right at the Aloha Tower Marketplace. After breakfast we toured the shops there. Around 9:45 we noticed that the skies were getting dark again so we returned to the ship for our umbrellas. We barely got back on board and it poured. By 10:15 the rains let up so we headed off on our own walking tour. We walked over to the Iolani Palace, King Kamehameha Statue and the Kawaiahao Church in a drizzle. We had been to those places many years ago and it was great visiting them again. Of course the rains came and we decided to head back to the ship. As the afternoon went by, the rains became heavier. We had been told that there would only be a 30% chance of rain today. We had a tour planned for this evening - a luau at Paradise Cove. At 3:50 just as we were leaving our cabin to go down to the pier to meet our tour, Jay the assistant CD came on the PA system. You guessed it - another tour canceled. The rains stopped around 6:15. When we went back to our cabin after dinner at 7:30 we discovered that the verandahs on the port side of the ship had all been washed down. So much for enjoying an after dinner drink out there this evening. The 8 hour Circle Hawaii tour got back nearly an hour late due to the heavy rains. Those that went to the Polynesian Cultural Center said they were drenched by mid afternoon and couldn’t wait to get back to the ship - which was late because of the dinner and show. We noticed that many people are coming down with colds from all the rain. No towel animal this evening. Free shuttle for Hilo Hattie.

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Lahaina, Maui - we had 2 tours booked for here - Valley to Ocean Discovery in the morning and Drums of the Pacific Luau in the evening. This is a tendering port. It was raining when we arrived. All tours were to meet in the Wajang Theatre and those going ashore independently got their tender tickets in the Queen’s Lounge. We were told to report 10 minutes before our tour which was scheduled to leave at 8:15. We got there at 8 and the entire area was a ZOO!!. The first tour hadn’t even left yet and the place was jammed back. The 2 girls in charge didn’t seem to know what to do. As it turned out they would call one tour to report to the tender and then allow many independents to go on the tenders. We had only 3 tenders running. By allowing so many independents to get off the ship before the tours, the tours got further and further behind. Our tour was finally called at 8:50. We got to shore at 9:05 - waters were still calm but it was raining. When we finally got on the bus, the driver told us that we were 1 hour late and since he had another tour to do in the afternoon, he would have to cut our tour short (don’t worry - no one got anything back for a shortened tour). As we a result we got only 15 minutes at the Iao Needle - but we were there only 10 minutes when it really began to pour!! On the way out there our bus driver got a call on his cell phone - which he ignored - just let it kept ringing. Everyone dashed back to the bus. We were supposed to have stopped at the Botanical Gardens at the bottom of the hill but because we were running late - we just made a quick drive through - thank heavens we had been there before. Felt sorry for the people who had never seem them. While on our way to the Maui Ocean Center our driver’s cell phone rang - this time in the form of an SOS!! He answered this call.

The dispatcher was making certain that we were out of the Iao Valley - heavy rains were causing flash flooding. We had 1 and ½ hours at the Maui Ocean Center. The Center is wonderful with lots of exhibits but wouldn’t you know it - it was loaded with about 500 screaming children who were just beginning spring break and since it was to raining to go to the beach, their parents brought them here! By the time we got back to Lahaina, the rains had stopped so we decided to walk around town and see what all had changed since the last time we were in this port in 1979. At 1:45 we decided to get a tender and return to the ship. The winds had kicked up quite a bit and we noticed that the ocean was really rough. After waiting 15 minutes 2 tenders came in - 1 was empty and the other one was full - had a lot of crew members who got some free time. The first tender that we got on - the one that had been empty had to be completely cleaned down from all the sea sick passengers on it. We left the pier at 2:05 and began a horrible ride back to the ship. The tender was packed with passengers and crew. They kept 3 of the canvas coverings for the doors closed. As we pitched from side to side with water crashing over the top of the tender and pouring into the only open “door”, many of us wondered if we would ever get back to the ship in one piece. I know that we have all been told that if the tender rolls over, it will right itself. But our biggest concern was - no one is trapped in - if the tender rolls over, we will all fall and many of us will have broken bones and hopefully no one will be killed.

Our “driver” did an excellent job of keeping the tender upright and getting us back to the ship - no one on our tender got sick. The next challenge was getting off the tender with the waves crashing onto the ship and into the tender area. Nearly every other person got soaked getting off the tender - I was one of them - DH got one shoe and sock a little wet. We got back to the ship at 2:45. There were people waiting to get onto the tender to go ashore - many of us made a comment to them - “You are all crazy if you go ashore now”. While I was changing clothes and talking to DH about going back on the 4 o’clock tender for our luau an announcement was made canceling all tender service until further notice. We had pretty much made up our minds that we were not going back and would just eat the $129 per person tour. We had also learned that around 10 AM they had stopped tender operations for awhile because of rough seas. At 3:50 an announcement was made that this evening’s luau had been canceled - okay we didn’t lose any money there. Our assistant CD seem to be making all the announcements. He came back on at 4 and reminded everyone that their monies would be refunded. We learned that some of the crew members were on this ship when she was in the Falklands in 2005 and had the same kind of weather and tender operations had to cease and people had to spend the night on the island with the locals. We talked to some other people who got on the tenders at 3 and were told that they had to remain there until clearance was given for them to return to the ship. The sun finally came out between 3:30 and 4. At four two tenders with the majority of passengers and crew returned to the ship - it was still a long ride for them as the ship moved out to sea so that the waves wouldn’t be too bad for those getting off the tenders. It was announced around 5:30 that everyone was safe back on board.

We were supposed to have had a Hawaiian Local Show: Polynesian Production” but it was canceled. The group was at the pier and were ready to come out on a tender but it was feared that the seas might get rough again and that they wouldn’t be able to get back to shore. Tonight was Hawaiian night - BBQ out on the deck. Many of the men wore Hawaiian shirts. We chose to eat in the dining room. There weren’t many tables set up around the pool and some people “camped” out early - the BBQ began at 5:30 and was over at 8:30. So the YU-4 played music for several hours - not much Hawaiian music from what we were told. The movie “Walk The Mile” was scheduled to be shown just once in the Queen’s Lounge but since nothing really was going on, it was announced that there would be 2 showings. During the evening they kept one tender in the water - have no idea why since everyone was back on board - felt sorry for those guys. We were to stay here until 11 but we left at 10:45. The evening turned crystal clear so we got an after dinner drink and sat out on our verandah for a couple of hours watching the stars and the lights of Lahaina. Note: we talked to some people who did the tour to the Haleakula Crater - dress warmly if you take this tour - many people didn’t. Those who went there that the temperature at the top was in the low 30’s and it was sleeting. Tonight’s towel animal was a dog. These tours were canceled on the first day of the cruise: Adventure to said Hana, Crater Rainbow Helicopter, Circle Island Helicopter. There may have been others canceled - I didn’t keep track. Hilo Hattie has a free shuttle for those passengers who wish to go there.

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Nawiliwili, Kauai - As mentioned earlier our tour for here was canceled the first day along with the scenic Nawiliwili Hanalei Lookout tour. Many of you probably read about the heavy rains that have been wrecking havoc on this island - an earth dam broke killing 7 people and washing out a few roads. So we went over to Hilo Hattie on the free shuttle and did some shopping. Later we went over to the Anchor Cove shops via the free shuttle and walked over to the Marriott. When we were on this island in 1979 we stayed at the Kauai Surf which was wiped out by a hurricane quite a few years ago. The Marriott is gorgeous. They have placed some lawn loungers on what is left of the grassy area as most of the beach has been washed away in the rains. They are working to restore that area. Across the street from the Anchor Cove shops are the Harbor shops - also a free shuttle to there. There are also free shuttles to go to K-Mart and Wal-Mart. It was cloudy most of the day - no rain. The Norwegian Wind was in port with us today. The sail-away party was held on Deck 3 - port side at 4:30. After dinner everyone got a letter indicating that the hot tubs were going to re-open and that it would be self serve in the Lido beginning the next day. Our towel animal for the evening was a turkey.

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Hilo - the day started out cloudy but by noon the sun was out and it turned out to be a lovely day considering that we had been told that there was a 70% chance of showers today. We had an early tour: “Pele - Goddess of Fire” - HEY - it wasn’t canceled! The King’s Room and Neptune Lounge weren’t open that early so we had breakfast in the Lido. Everything was normal - salt and pepper, sugar, napkins, silverware on the tables. People could serve themselves. But some people just wouldn’t use the tongs to pick up rolls, etc. We enjoyed going back to the Kilauea Caldera. We had an excellent bus driver who took his time to stop and allow everyone to take as many pictures as they wanted. Our only other stop was at a black sand beach. That was a little disappointing as it was in the commercial area where people had burned fires, dumped “junk” and we watched a couple of people shoveling sand into the back of their truck. Years ago we were taken to a different beach where there was a lovely church and palm trees. Who knows - maybe that area is gone now. When we got back to the ship, we noticed that the terminal that we had to walk through had several vendors. Most were selling Hawaiian arrangements for $10 for your cabin. Had this stop been first on our cruise instead of next to the last we would have bought an arrangement. When we got back to our suite we noticed that we had new flowers (not Hawaiian) on the table and new shower curtains (didn’t see anything wrong with the old ones). But I guess it is just part of the regular maintenance of the ship to replace items like that once in awhile. In several areas of the ship the flowers were changed again - there were a couple of beautiful Hawaiian arrangements. It was strange at dinner not having someone put a roll and butter on your plate and having to salt and pepper everything yourself as well as pouring your own cream into your coffee. Even the public restrooms went back to the cloth towels for drying your hands. When we returned to our cabin after dinner, all the carpeting in the hallways on Navigation Deck had been cleaned. Even though we are now on Code Yellow, the constant cleaning and spraying of the ship is to continue every night until we get to San Diego in hopes that the ship will return to Code Green. Even the towels are back out at the pools. Once again there were free shuttles to Hilo Hattie and Wal-Mart. Across the street from Hilo Hatties is a big shopping plaza. Our bus driver told us that J C Penney’s has moved off the island and been replaced by Macy’s. To go to the Farmer’s Market you have to take the regular bus which does stop at the pier - it is $1 each way per person. We had another life boat drill at 5:15 this afternoon. It was very short - 10 minutes. This evening we had a new towel animal for us - a seal.

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Kona - a tendering port. The day started out cloudy but by 9:30 the sun was strong and it got a little humid. For awhile around 8:30 tender service had to be stopped because of some large swells making it difficult to board the tenders. We went ashore around 9:30. We were surprised to see how much the area has grown. Once again we are using only 3 tenders. The Norwegian Wind was also here with us. They were able to anchor a closer to the pier than we were. We were anchored about 2 ½ miles from shore and they were about 1 mile away. We didn’t take a tour - just walked and walked and looked at the many new plazas and stores. Once again there is a free shuttle to Hilo Hattie and Wal-Mart and K-Mart. Within walking distance of the pier is Ahuena Heiau - King Kamehameha I’s temple seat (you can see it from the pier), Hulihee Palace ($6 per person to visit), Mokuaikaua Church, Kona Marketplace, Kona Inn Shopping Village and lots, lots more. And if you don’t mind walking about ½ mile more, there is the newest area - Coconut Grove which has a Hard Rock Café for those of you who collect their guitar pins. We did go to the Sweet Ohana Candy Factory in the Kona Marketplace as it was one of HAL’s recommended stores. You get sample some of the candy - it is very good but oh - their prices - $20 for a half pound! We were originally to have been here till 6 but the time was changed and we left at 5. Around 2 we noticed that the Norwegian Wind lifted anchor and moved further out to sea. They moved twice. They were to leave at 5 with us. They had all but 1 tender up and all but 1 hatch closed when we left. At 5:30 we could still see them and they hadn’t left yet. Don’t know what happened. The daily program listed as going by Kilauea Volcano between 10:30 and 11 PM. But by 10:05 we could the red lava glowing against the night sky in the distance. We were directly in front of the volcano between 10:20 and 10:25 - just as a Celebrity ship passed between the volcano and us. What a wonderful display the Kilauea Volcano put on for us! We stayed out on our verandah until we couldn’t see it anymore. A commentary was made on the open decks - we weren’t able to hear it. Tonight was also a production show. But because of our passing the volcano, the main dinners had their show at 6:45 instead of their usual 10:15 time. In the morning we had received our dinner menu and on the top it was listed as the Mariner’s Dinner and certain items were stared indicating special Mariner Signature dishes: 1 appetizer (avocado & bay shrimp); 1 soup (Bahamian cioppino); 2 entrée’s (sesame crusted tuna steak or Mariner’s pot roast); and 1 dessert (chocolate & almond opera cake). When we got to the dinner, the menus were plain - no special heading - no stared items. So we asked about this Mariner’s menu thing. We were told that it was celebrated on the last couple of cruises but Seattle didn’t think much of it so it was stopped. Another new towel animal - in this case - animals - 2 loving swans.

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We did NCL in Sept. of 07 and had a great cruise! You won't be on the ship much, so the size of the room won't make a big difference. The food and service will not be up to HAL, but for the price, it's fine. I didn't want to cross the Pacific due to sea sickness and DH not liking sea days. We took all Roberts excursions and they were great! We rented a car two days and the company met the ship, drove us to their office and gave us a map. It was simple. They only thing I would do differently is fly to the west coast first. The trip from Atlanta to/from Honolulu was brutal. My sister took the same trip in Jan. to get away from Ohio winter, but we can't travel in winter due to work.The entertainment was better than we had on our other 4 cruises with NCL and Princess. Pearl Harbor was the highlight for us and now NCL includes that in their cruise. Have fun. We are late 50's.

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We did NCL in Sept. of 07 and had a great cruise! You won't be on the ship much, so the size of the room won't make a big difference. The food and service will not be up to HAL, but for the price, it's fine. I didn't want to cross the Pacific due to sea sickness and DH not liking sea days. We took all Roberts excursions and they were great! We rented a car two days and the company met the ship, drove us to their office and gave us a map. It was simple. They only thing I would do differently is fly to the west coast first. The trip from Atlanta to/from Honolulu was brutal. My sister took the same trip in Jan. to get away from Ohio winter, but we can't travel in winter due to work.The entertainment was better than we had on our other 4 cruises with NCL and Princess. Pearl Harbor was the highlight for us and now NCL includes that in their cruise. Have fun. We are late 50's.

 

OP - Joanie -- has to use a scooter -- cabins may be a problem.

Would please discribe Pearl Harbor?? I know that it has changed since we did the Arizona Memorial back a few years -- more security.

Thanks.

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