In Years To Come Will All Ships Be Signature Class

[aliaschief]

Have loved all of our cruises but there is something special about the smaller ships. One recent first time Hal cruiser described the MS Maasdam as "Intimate" over the larger classes. I think he described it well.

Question is? Do you think when the older ships are replaced, in the next decade,will they all be replaced with Signature Class or above? Or will Holland America build some more 1,200-1,400 passenger ships?

Just curious........

[Cruzman]

Hard to say, but if they do, I probably won't sail HAL as much as in the past.

[Southbound]

Cruzman -- Ditto for me!

[bobincm]

I agree that I like the S class ships over the newer larger ones. However, the problem is cost. I would be curious the difference in fuel consumption between the S class and V class. If the ships are smaller, fees will be higher. HAL will have to make a choice as to whether they want to lose their loyal customer by only having semi-large ships. It really comes down to dollars.

Bob

[Cruisin'Lady]

I certainly hope they don't go bigger! I really like the smaller sized ships.

[ellieanne]

The view of a 36-year old exclusive HAL cruiser:
My first cruise was on the Veendam, and I will always have a fondness for the S-Class. Then I cruised on the R-Class and then on the Vista Class. Going into my Eurodam cruise, I thought I was going to hate the Signature Class, the way I hated the Vista class. But I found that the things I disliked about the Vista Class ships were corrected on the Signature Class. It find them to be a natural extension of the S-Class, a slightly larger R-class. I would much prefer the ships to be Signature Class to Vista. I just don't want them to go any larger.
But for the timing of the cruise this year, I would be sailing on the Eurodam again. Any larger than that though and I will have to re-think my exclusivity to HAL.

[fann1sh]

I would love to be a fly on the wall in whichever HAL department explores future ship development.

I suspect a new Vista class ship might be possible, given the success the design has had for Costa, P&O, Cunard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vista_class_cruise_ship

However, according to that article, Signature class is considered only a variation on the Vista class.

"Green" is a buzzword right now. So far, it's a concept the cruise industry has not embraced. Holland America has the best record in the industry on sewage and other environmental issues. HAL might be open to taking other steps, but only if they were financially responsible.

New, small ships might be designed if more efficient propulsion than diesel/Azipod could be found. Saving money on fuel would be a "green" concept HAL corporate/shareholders could get behind.

[SwissMyst]

I sure hope they keep at least the "S" class ships. Looks like the Prisendam is safe too. We will be trying the MV Discovery which is about 600 passengers for a long cruise which is also a one of its kind and has a pretty dedicated group of repeat passengers as well as picking up those who used the small Marco Polo before it ceased operations.

Think we will have to take as many HAL "S" class cruises as we can incase they do fade away because any ship has its own lifetime and can't be patched up forever. Though with the Discovery (former Princess Lines Love Boat sister ship) looks like it has been around longer than most.

The "S" classes are perfect because they have balconies, easy access to all floors, less tippy on top, small and intimate and fewer crowds to unload at the port.

We did notice though that on the Maasdam got shifted to the less desirable port locations (sometimes the commercial port) because we were bumped by larger ships who got to use the cruise port facilities - more crowds, more money to make off those cruisers who might only wander off the ship into the port shops and back and call it an island visit.

We watched the small and well-loved Saga Rose on one of her final voyages get the same treatment. The Discovery goes to such unique destinations there should be little competition for port space and I bet some of the ports would not be able to handle the big behemoths anyway on that itinerary.

It was interesting in the Caribbean to see how they had to extend the wharf facilities to handle some of those monsters. So sometimes this may not even be HAL's choice, but limitations imposed by port facilities and tourist destintation demands.

My first long circumnavigation voyage about 35 years ago was on about an 1100 passenger ship which for years I described as "huge". Little did I know. She finally went down off Penang after it caught fire in its third re-iteration after I sailed her. I salute her whenever I pass those waters.

[sail7seas]

My two favorite ships tie for first for me........

One is an "S" and one is a Vista. Maasdam and Noordam.

Then we sailed Eurodam just because she was the newest ship, the first of two sisters, we had to miss the Inaugural we had booked to sail because I needed very serious surgery....... and we expected to be ho hum. We thought we'd say nice cruise, okay ship but only okay. Not so. We love Eurodam and had a great time. So wonderful, we booked to sail her again two cruises in January.

She is not our favorite. It is still Maasdam and Noordam but I do not think HAL will ever build anymore 55,000 ton ships. It simply is economically unrealistic in today's environment.

I hope that it is correct to think HAL intends to sail the "S" ships for a number more years or why are they investing so much in phase II SOE upgrades.

But yes, I think any future ships that will follow Nieuw Amsterdam will be 80,000+ tons and probably more. But I don't expect them to announce another new build in the near future.

[iceman93]

Given the success HAL seems to have with the Prinsendam, offering more unique itineraries and the promise of more intimate service with a commensurate price premium over the rest of the fleet, it would seem that there is room in the marketplace for HAL to continue to offer "premium+" or whatever it would be called service on smaller ships.

Wasn't there a thread here several months ago where someone predicted HAL bifurcating, with the big ships sailing primarily 7-day family/tourist itineraries and the smaller ships offering the longer, more exclusive sailings? I could see that happening...

[aliaschief]

Well thought and sincere responses. We will always remember our first cruise on the MS Volendam and our 28 days on the MS Maasdam this year; was the best ever. Why? The crew, staff and officers have it down!

Cannot forget: our wonderful cruises on the MS Oosterdam and MS Noordam. Not employed by Holland America but with are our very limited cruises with Hal they all have been great. Just call it like we have experienced.

At least we will have the memories of sailing with Holland America on their smaller ships. Now we are off to the Eurodam Dec 12; with our great Roll Call members and owning the Grand Oasis for a day. Haven't been there yet, but very optimistic it will be an outstanding cruise. Why? They all are.

............but in my mind I will miss that "Intimate" feel of the smaller class ships.

[jtl513]

Originally Posted by iceman93

... with the big ships sailing primarily 7-day family/tourist itineraries and the smaller ships offering the longer, more exclusive sailings?

I believe the Vista and Vista-II (Signature) were always intended for 7-10 day voyages, and that is one of the reasons that it was thought self-service laundries would not be needed as much.

[fcorey]

The whole cruise industry is dealing with over capacity right now which is driving down the cost of fares so the economics of ship operation are probably getting even more scrutiny. One advantage that HAL has being part of Carnival is the economy of scale in purchasing negotiations, but they seem to have balanced this with keeping their own identity (smart move on Micky Arrison's part) .
Problem is that operating costs on smaller ships are higher so I dont see them building any new smaller ship, or even large ones any time soon. Heck there is nothing wrong with the fleet they have, and I think we'd all agree that they really seem to do a first rate job at maintaining their ships. I think they are in good shape for many years to come, none of their fleet is really that old and they can always follow the example set by Princess in reinvesting in upgrades for existing ships. As so many passengers that sail HAL enjoy the smaller ships and lets face it, by todays standards even vista ships are small, I hope they have continued success filling their niche in the market. Who wants to sail on the latest Behemoth of the Seas anyway

[aliaschief]

Originally Posted by jtl513

I believe the Vista and Vista-II (Signature) were always intended for 7-10 day voyages, and that is one of the reasons that it was thought self-service laundries would not be needed as much.

Good thought...may be the truth.. while on-board we should always look at the ships Family Tree. Those old liners are beautiful and you just wonder? Did the passengers enjoy their cruises as much as we all do???

What I do know. If you put experienced Holland America Officers and Crew on board any ship; we will continue to have great cruises on larger and larger ships.

.........though we would be very happy if the total occupancy levels did not sky rocket.

[JimVrhovac]

If people do not want to pay the extra rates that the R & S class ships require to be profitable they will not be replaced with new ones of the same size. That is a rea;oty of business. In my talking with HAL officers over the last couple years they all say the same thing "NONE OF THE SMALL SHIPS ARE MAKING A PROFIT." This has to change for them to survice.

These same officers tell me that there are no plans for ships larger than the Signature class.

We did not like the Vista class when they first cam out but the more we sail them the more we become accustomed to their size.

It will be interesting to see the outcome over the next decade.

Ruth & Jim

[jtl513]

Originally Posted by JimVrhovac

"NONE OF THE SMALL SHIPS ARE MAKING A PROFIT."

And yet HAL's spending a pile of money, that will take many years to recoup, on dubious alterations!!

[camp637]

Originally Posted by jtl513

And yet HAL's spending a pile of money, that will take many years to recoup, on dubious alterations!!

Further ... aren't the cabins on the R and S class ships priced higher than comparable digs on the Vista and Signature class? So, it's hard to imagine that those smaller ships, more than half of the entire fleet, are money losers.

[rkacruiser]

In my humble opinion, the Nieuw Amsterdam will be the last new HAL ship for some time. I expect we will see continued upgrades and refurbishments on the rest of the fleet. The next new HAL ship, after the Nieuw Amsterdam, I think will be a replacement for the Prinsendam. I do think it will be a vessel of that similar size. I look at the Seabourn Odyssey, and knowing how Carnival likes to use similar hulls for its various brands, and wonder if some variation of this new ship may become the next Prinsendam.

[Pettifogger]

At the present time, there are plenty of cabins on smaller ships for those who need not consider value, but there are a declining number for those of us who must. The building of bigger and bigger ships suggests to some that the decline in the number of smaller ships will continue indefinitely. I doubt it .

There are undoubtedly economies of scale in operating bigger ships. When occupancy rates were over 100, that was the only way to go. But now, a ship that can carry only a thousand passengers, but is 90% occupied, is likely to be far more profitable than one that can carry three thousand, but is only 50% occupied.

My guess, and that's all it is, from talking to other cruise passengers and following this board, is that between 25% and 50% of HAL passengers prefer smaller ships (I'm being conservative to minimize the inevitable challenges.) Since smaller ships need less passengers, that's more than enough to raise the occupancy rate of smaller ships well above that of the larger ships in tough times, especially if the number of smaller ships declines any further and the number of prospective passengers for them remains constant.

Of course, the cruise lines might say that "We're not building huge ships for today's market, we're building them for the recovered markets next year or the year after." But if the cruise market doesn't fully recover (occupancy rates of 100% or more) for five to ten years and then eventually tanks again as it generally does, it might prove to have been more prudent to have maintained more diversity in the sizes of their ships.

From the passengers' standpoint, if the fashion of building bigger and bigger ships creates a scarcity of affordable, small ship cabins, I expect some entrepreneur who is a little more alert than most will fill the vacuum, but then we would be saddled with the tedious job of breaking in a new cruise line. Let's hope that won't ever become necessary.

[Taxguy77]

One of our best cruises ever was onthe Royal Clipper, 220 pax. Over 1700 is just to big!