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  #21  
Old April 4th, 2012, 07:06 AM
Tonka's Skipper Tonka's Skipper is offline
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Being in a more open environment and with a convenient reef nearby. ground tackle, air and flotation cushions can be used to right the ship without resorting to cutting it apart. The Italian environmental people want it gone in one piece if possible.

The removal of the Normandie was a fiasco almost as bad as its capsize. Merrit Chapman & Scott was contracted to raise the ship. Account the cramped quarters and lack of expertise in salvage (MCS was a marine construction company, not a towing and salvage firm.) the decision was made to remove the superstructure. The fact that the US Navy coveted the hull for an aircraft carrier conversion probably had a great deal to do with that.

Anyway, wartime exigencies and inefficiencies caused one of the finest ships to ever sail the North Atlantic route to become razor blades.

Doc

I agree the Normandie was indeed a beautiful Vessel! Not so sure about the superstructure not being cut away.........

But time will tell.

Any more articales show up?


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  #22  
Old April 4th, 2012, 04:53 PM
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My point in this discussion is that the level of expertise involved with the Costa Concordia salvage far exceeds that in the attempted salvage of the Normandie. The only companies in the United States that regularly undertook salvage jobs under Lloyd's Open Form Contract were on the Great Lakes. Great Lakes Towing and Roen Steamship both did this sort of work for many years. They almost always succeeded.

Merrit, Chapman & Scott, a marine construction company, dabbled in salvage operations on a per hour basis. This is a sign of a company lacking both expertise and daring. Lloyd's Open Form starts out saying in very bold letters, "No cure, No pay." Real salvage firms love the risk-reward ratio of this contract.

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  #23  
Old April 4th, 2012, 06:53 PM
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My point in this discussion is that the level of expertise involved with the Costa Concordia salvage far exceeds that in the attempted salvage of the Normandie. The only companies in the United States that regularly undertook salvage jobs under Lloyd's Open Form Contract were on the Great Lakes. Great Lakes Towing and Roen Steamship both did this sort of work for many years. They almost always succeeded.

Merrit, Chapman & Scott, a marine construction company, dabbled in salvage operations on a per hour basis. This is a sign of a company lacking both expertise and daring. Lloyd's Open Form starts out saying in very bold letters, "No cure, No pay." Real salvage firms love the risk-reward ratio of this contract.

Doc

The one point you missed in the Normandie discussion is that the level of expertize in the 1940's and during a war time , with limited eqiupment and manpower makes, the comparison between the 2 vessel like Apples and oranges.

Lloyds open form is far from the only type of salvage contract and as far as we know there is no contract yet awarded nor has the details of any plan been been released.


The maritime international legal system today makes it very hard to support a LLoyds form, except on emergency situations. The Concordia is no longer a emergency situation and the recovery may be a flat fee and /or a time plus %, or even a lloyds letter.

This is no longer the Cowboy days of salvage......a salvage firm doesn't just get a signed lloyds form and then just go do anthing they want!....a detailed plan, including just what the salvage firm intends to go about recoverying the wreck. protection for the inviroment, insurances, etc..etc...must be approved and agreed to by all goverment, insurance maritime groups, vessel owners, etc have to sign off on the plan..


I have worked with many salvage firms and recoveries......I have great respect for them and their skill....but none of them are Cowboys anymore!

But we will see in time

AKK

Last edited by Tonka's Skipper; April 4th, 2012 at 07:08 PM.
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  #24  
Old April 4th, 2012, 07:31 PM
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The only companies in the United States that regularly undertook salvage jobs under Lloyd's Open Form Contract were on the Great Lakes. Great Lakes Towing and Roen Steamship both did this sort of work for many years. They almost always succeeded.
Going slightly OT - Doc, do you know whether Great Lakes salvaged the Eastland in Chicago? I've seen GLT tugs in photos with the capsized vessel; there's one ship that was salvaged and sailed another 30 years, although not in the passenger trade. (DH worked for GLT while in college, although he was pretty much limited to tug maintenance in the yard.)
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  #25  
Old April 5th, 2012, 12:26 AM
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Yes. Great Lakes Towing did the job. The aptly named Capt. Alex Cunning was the skipper and wreckmaster of the salvage tug Favorite. He righted the Eastland and towed it to the former Shipowner's Drydock Co. They sealed up the hull and pumped in air to float the ship. 835 people were drowned 15 feet from the bank of the Chicago River when this excursion steamer capsized at her dock.

I learned a great deal about salvage from my dear friend, the late Capt. John Roen. He took a liking to me and told me of his many exploits when I was a kid.

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  #26  
Old April 9th, 2012, 05:35 AM
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I keep thinking that no matter what in some way Concordia will not be cut up, perhaps it may become a permanent fixture somewhere like the Queen Mary, a giant off shore ship/hotel/casino. No need to repair the engine room. Tow it off, form a breakwater around it, strip the bottom out and fill it with concrete and then tie all the lines to a shore based connection.

Refurbish the upper decks which should be fairly easy, since it will never ever sail again no need to be up to maritime codes, its now a land based fixture.

China could use it as a naval ship I suppose
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  #27  
Old April 9th, 2012, 04:06 PM
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I keep thinking that no matter what in some way Concordia will not be cut up, perhaps it may become a permanent fixture somewhere like the Queen Mary, a giant off shore ship/hotel/casino. No need to repair the engine room. Tow it off, form a breakwater around it, strip the bottom out and fill it with concrete and then tie all the lines to a shore based connection.

Refurbish the upper decks which should be fairly easy, since it will never ever sail again no need to be up to maritime codes, its now a land based fixture.

China could use it as a naval ship I suppose

Unlike the Queen Mary, I don't think i'd pay an admission to go aboard the Concordia with all thats happened. And she's probably too well constructed to be a Chinese naval ship...heh. My guess is that she'll be refloated whole and towed away to a breakers someplace. I can't imagine her ever sailing the seas again. Nothing is impossible....the MS Stockholm that collided with the Andrea Doria in heavy fog in 1956 is still sailing to this day I believe. The front end was ripped off and several people were killed (not sure how many)....but the Stockholm didn't sink...the Doria did. And there's all those naval ships that were sunk at Pearl Harbor that were refloated and put back into service. (I'd love to see a documentary on how we managed to do that so quickly!) However, given the way the Concordia was crashed and the way things were handled after....and considering public opinion on the whole matter....not to mention that she'll be half submerged for at least a year.....I would be shocked if the ship was ever used to carry passengers again. What does everyone else think?
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  #28  
Old April 9th, 2012, 07:29 PM
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I have noticed a few cheap shots at the Chinese as of late. In my opinion it is very poor thinking to underestimate their abilities when they have an objective. Regards.
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  #29  
Old April 9th, 2012, 08:09 PM
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I have noticed a few cheap shots at the Chinese as of late. In my opinion it is very poor thinking to underestimate their abilities when they have an objective. Regards.

I don't underestimate their ability to achieve their objective. I think their objective for decades has been to produce and export low cost, low quality products so that they can dominate the market and they've certainly succeeded!
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  #30  
Old April 9th, 2012, 08:58 PM
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Unlike the Queen Mary, I don't think i'd pay an admission to go aboard the Concordia with all thats happened. And she's probably too well constructed to be a Chinese naval ship...heh. My guess is that she'll be refloated whole and towed away to a breakers someplace. I can't imagine her ever sailing the seas again. Nothing is impossible....the MS Stockholm that collided with the Andrea Doria in heavy fog in 1956 is still sailing to this day I believe. The front end was ripped off and several people were killed (not sure how many)....but the Stockholm didn't sink...the Doria did. And there's all those naval ships that were sunk at Pearl Harbor that were refloated and put back into service. (I'd love to see a documentary on how we managed to do that so quickly!) However, given the way the Concordia was crashed and the way things were handled after....and considering public opinion on the whole matter....not to mention that she'll be half submerged for at least a year.....I would be shocked if the ship was ever used to carry passengers again. What does everyone else think?
More died (45) on Andrea Doria and Stockholm then did on Concordia.



So, unless way too expensive. Re-float, rebuild her, and re-name Concordia. Sail her again.

People have short memories- this shall pass.

Yes, Stockholm still sails today! Sadly, Andrea Doria went to the bottom. There was a little girl in her bed on Andrea Doria who was literally taken out of bed by the collision, and deposited in the wreckage of the Stockholm's bow, and with minor injuries!

We're dealing with a new age of cruisers today, many of which have little clue, and can't deal with this stuff. Imagine the folks who think Costa might go out of business over this! It's not going to happen!

Did KLM airlines go out of business when one one of their chief training captains, Jacob Van Zanten took off without permission, and killed 583 people on a fog shrouded runway at Tenerife?



Edit: Did White Star Line go out of business after Titanic? 1500+ dead there.
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  #31  
Old April 9th, 2012, 10:15 PM
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I don't underestimate their ability to achieve their objective. I think their objective for decades has been to produce and export low cost, low quality products so that they can dominate the market and they've certainly succeeded!
They make affordable stuff, cheap stuff and they make high quality stuff. They also make very expensive stuff especially as when hundreds of big name American companies put their name on it.

Also be careful what you say, they pretty much own us.
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  #32  
Old April 9th, 2012, 10:49 PM
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More died (45) on Andrea Doria and Stockholm then did on Concordia.



So, unless way too expensive. Re-float, rebuild her, and re-name Concordia. Sail her again.

People have short memories- this shall pass.

Yes, Stockholm still sails today! Sadly, Andrea Doria went to the bottom. There was a little girl in her bed on Andrea Doria who was literally taken out of bed by the collision, and deposited in the wreckage of the Stockholm's bow, and with minor injuries!

We're dealing with a new age of cruisers today, many of which have little clue, and can't deal with this stuff. Imagine the folks who think Costa might go out of business over this! It's not going to happen!

Did KLM airlines go out of business when one one of their chief training captains, Jacob Van Zanten took off without permission, and killed 583 people on a fog shrouded runway at Tenerife?



Edit: Did White Star Line go out of business after Titanic? 1500+ dead there.

Wow I had no idea that many people died in the Andrea Doria/Stockholm accident. I thought it was much lower. I remember reading a very good book about the accident many years ago...and I think I may have seen a tv show about it as well. That's an amazing picture of the Stockholm....hard to believe she's still carrying passengers over 50 years later!

I guess only time will tell what happens to the Concordia. It will surely be interesting to watch on the Giglio port cam. There are some differences between the accidents of long ago and those today....that is the internet and hundreds of channels on tv. I'm sitting here watching a show on the Titanic while reading posts about the Concordia and Chinese products, lol. Its a different world now then it was back then. In those days you had to wait for limited information....and your newspaper never argued with you, lol. Nowadays we're flooded with every finite detail of every story....and noone can agree on anything.
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  #33  
Old April 10th, 2012, 07:14 AM
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I have noticed a few cheap shots at the Chinese as of late. In my opinion it is very poor thinking to underestimate their abilities when they have an objective. Regards.


Right now they have thier own problems with the ecomonic bubble about to burst......the their own people now aware of the rest of the world and demanding a better life........

P.S. yes they have had alot of luck in stealing the abilities of other countries and companies, but now that the world knows that their word is not worth a thing and that they steal what ever they want.....things are changing over there and their success rate is going down! Companies are realizing they need to protect thier intell properties.

I deal in export import and more and more companies and job are moving out of china and more then you think are coming back to the states


AKK

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  #34  
Old April 10th, 2012, 07:31 AM
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Has anyone seen a report or statement saying officially which plan has been approved to salvage the wreck?


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  #35  
Old April 10th, 2012, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
Right now they have thier own problems with the ecomonic bubble about to burst......the their own people now aware of the rest of the world and demanding a better life........

P.S. yes they have had alot of luck in stealing the abilities of other countries and companies, but now that the world knows that their word is not worth a thing and that they steal what ever they want.....things are changing over there and their success rate is going down! Companies are realizing they need to protect thier intell properties.

I deal in export import and more and more companies and job are moving out of china and more then you think are coming back to the states


AKK
Well said Skipper!

It's only a matter of time before the "you know what" hits the fan in China in regards to their economy. I think it will have a small short term effect on the world economy, but a damaging effect on their's. I have a friend that has been doing business in China for years and he says the changes in their society are major and as you have said, the people are waking up to the fact that they have been lied to and they want their fair share.
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  #36  
Old April 10th, 2012, 11:47 PM
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Has anyone seen a report or statement saying officially which plan has been approved to salvage the wreck?


AKK
And now getting back on topic! The reports I have read in trade papers say that the leading salvage operators have been invited to submit plans and proposals. These reports go on to say that the contract should be let by the end of this month.

Doc
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  #37  
Old April 11th, 2012, 07:49 AM
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And now getting back on topic! The reports I have read in trade papers say that the leading salvage operators have been invited to submit plans and proposals. These reports go on to say that the contract should be let by the end of this month.

Doc
Morning Doc,

That is what I have read in a number of places.......which is why I didnt put much faith in the leading post articale.


We should hear in a couple of weeks.

AKK
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  #38  
Old April 11th, 2012, 01:09 PM
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I keep thinking that no matter what in some way Concordia will not be cut up, perhaps it may become a permanent fixture somewhere like the Queen Mary, a giant off shore ship/hotel/casino. No need to repair the engine room. Tow it off, form a breakwater around it, strip the bottom out and fill it with concrete and then tie all the lines to a shore based connection.

Refurbish the upper decks which should be fairly easy, since it will never ever sail again no need to be up to maritime codes, its now a land based fixture.

China could use it as a naval ship I suppose
Why buy a waterlogged relic for this when there are functional yet obsolete ships going to the breakers all of the time?
The Golden Bear would have been a good candidate.
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  #39  
Old April 11th, 2012, 01:17 PM
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...
We're dealing with a new age of cruisers today, many of which have little clue, and can't deal with this stuff.
...
Reminds me of the tweets by people who had no idea that the film Titanic was based on a real event.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/networkdeskp...-actually-53wv
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  #40  
Old April 11th, 2012, 02:22 PM
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Reminds me of the tweets by people who had no idea that the film Titanic was based on a real event.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/networkdeskp...-actually-53wv
Oy!!!!!! I just read the comments, at first I thought some were just joking, but then it became apparent they were not!
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I love to cruise, but my flying comes first!
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44 cruises since 1985 and I am too lazy to mention them all! However, I do own the Builder's Certificate to the the RMS Queen Elizabeth. A lot of good that does me! Ships sailed on: Costa Riviera. Home Lines Atlantic. Cunard QE2 & QM2. Premier Cruise's Sea Breeze & Rembrandt. Celebrity Zenith, Century, Galaxy & Millennium. Bahamas Celebration, and my favorite ship of all, Regal Empress! Cunard Diamond, Celebrity Elite, RCI Diamond (and I've yet to sail on RCI!!)

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