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  #1  
Old March 14th, 2008, 01:07 PM
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Default Canadian Next Top Model attacked in St. Lucia

This lady, Canada's Next Top Model from the TV show, was attacked with her friend when they left a cruise ship last Thursday.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...d-82ffb3534d58
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  #2  
Old March 14th, 2008, 02:18 PM
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Have you read the thread immediately before this one?
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  #3  
Old March 15th, 2008, 03:50 AM
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Angry I'm angry and annoyed....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinnam0n View Post
Have you read the thread immediately before this one?
This really, really gets me! There was an entire thread posted LAST night about this very subject. Unfortunately, it appears that the moderators removed that post/thread. And they will probably remove this post, too!

For some reason, people are very invested in protecting the image of St. Lucia and minimizing the fact that crime is on the rise there. Yes, crime is on the rise on many of the Caribbean islands but it is proportionately higher on St. Lucia and oftentimes, a lot more violent than the crime that occurs on other islands, minus Jamaica and Haiti.

Please...people, scroll back and read the threads that have been started about the crime and personal violence on St. Lucia. While most people dismiss it as "stuff happens" and "it's a lot less worse than the crime in the USA," people should be advised and informed about the problems that exist on St. Lucia.

If folks continue to visit the island, well at least they can be informed and hopefully prepared.

I recently visited St. Lucia and disliked it very much. While it is a beautiful island, I would never, ever return there.

I pray that the moderators of this board let this thread sit for a while. It really is important!

Thanks CVU and cinnam0n for posting this again.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 07:58 AM
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We've cruised to St Lucia 3 times in the past couple of years. We enjoyed the island and the people that we met. As with many ports, you need to be aware of the safe and unsafe areas for travel, touring, sightseeing.

As far as threads dissappearing, it seems like threads on crime in ports can get very heated with the alarmists on one side and the cheerleaders on the other. In the middle are the majority of CC members who just want information so that they can make their own personal decision.

When both extremes realize that the other extreme is not going to change their mind the "discussion" turns in to a "yes, but" exchange.
  • Yes, but crime happens everywhere.
  • Yes, but it's worse at this port (which ever one is being discussed).
  • Yes, but it's no worse than (insert name of major US city here).
  • Yes, but we're not talking about (US city).
  • And on, and on, ad nauseam.
When it finally gets to be only a back and forth banter between a few or degenerates into a name calling match, the thread is locked or pulled. Unfortunately, all the good content goes out with the bad.

Another good way to get a thread pulled is to involve a lengthy discussion of "Why was a previous thread on this same subject pulled?"

Just my 2˘,

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  #5  
Old March 15th, 2008, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovetodream View Post
This really, really gets me! There was an entire thread posted LAST night about this very subject. Unfortunately, it appears that the moderators removed that post/thread. And they will probably remove this post, too!

For some reason, people are very invested in protecting the image of St. Lucia and minimizing the fact that crime is on the rise there. Yes, crime is on the rise on many of the Caribbean islands but it is proportionately higher on St. Lucia and oftentimes, a lot more violent than the crime that occurs on other islands, minus Jamaica and Haiti.

Please...people, scroll back and read the threads that have been started about the crime and personal violence on St. Lucia. While most people dismiss it as "stuff happens" and "it's a lot less worse than the crime in the USA," people should be advised and informed about the problems that exist on St. Lucia.

If folks continue to visit the island, well at least they can be informed and hopefully prepared.

I recently visited St. Lucia and disliked it very much. While it is a beautiful island, I would never, ever return there.

I pray that the moderators of this board let this thread sit for a while. It really is important!

Thanks CVU and cinnam0n for posting this again.
I don't normally do this and, yes, your post should be deleted for questioning the actions of the moderators but I wanted you to know why I deleted that thread. You had copied and pasted the entire article without attribution; a clear violation of copyright law.

You're allowed to copy a portion of a piece of work but it MUST have proper attribution, in other words, the link to the original source.

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Old March 15th, 2008, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Host Mach View Post
I don't normally do this and, yes, your post should be deleted for questioning the actions of the moderators but I wanted you to know why I deleted that thread. You had copied and pasted the entire article without attribution; a clear violation of copyright law.

You're allowed to copy a portion of a piece of work but it MUST have proper attribution, in other words, the link to the original source.

Host Mach
Not sure I follow you at all here but you're the Moderator. Why not email me about the error if I made one? How am I to know what exactly I have done wrong? I'm not clairvoyant.

I have emailed you a few times about "errors" and how I might correct them and you have ignored my emails.

You've deleted a few of my posts and ignored request of mine to censor the posts of others.
You're the boss. You seem to favor some posters while you react harshly to others. I'm not going to personalize it but I could.
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Last edited by lovetodream; March 15th, 2008 at 12:08 PM.
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  #7  
Old March 15th, 2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98Charlie View Post
We've cruised to St Lucia 3 times in the past couple of years. We enjoyed the island and the people that we met. As with many ports, you need to be aware of the safe and unsafe areas for travel, touring, sightseeing.

As far as threads dissappearing, it seems like threads on crime in ports can get very heated with the alarmists on one side and the cheerleaders on the other. In the middle are the majority of CC members who just want information so that they can make their own personal decision.

When both extremes realize that the other extreme is not going to change their mind the "discussion" turns in to a "yes, but" exchange.
  • Yes, but crime happens everywhere.
  • Yes, but it's worse at this port (which ever one is being discussed).
  • Yes, but it's no worse than (insert name of major US city here).
  • Yes, but we're not talking about (US city).
  • And on, and on, ad nauseam.
When it finally gets to be only a back and forth banter between a few or degenerates into a name calling match, the thread is locked or pulled. Unfortunately, all the good content goes out with the bad.

Another good way to get a thread pulled is to involve a lengthy discussion of "Why was a previous thread on this same subject pulled?"

Just my 2˘,

Charlie
Charlie, your very thoughtful and you're spot on. Thank you for taking the time to post Frankly, I'm weary with the nonsense that goes on with these boards. Something that is supposed to be so helpful is not.
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Last edited by lovetodream; March 15th, 2008 at 12:11 PM.
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  #8  
Old March 15th, 2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovetodream View Post
Not sure I follow you at all here but you're the Moderator. Why not email me about the error if I made one? How am I to know what exactly I have done wrong? I'm not clairvoyant.

I have emailed you a few times about "errors" and how I might correct them and you have ignored my emails.

You've deleted a few of my posts and ignored request of mine to censor the posts of others.
You're the boss. You seem to favor some posters while you react harshly to others. I'm not going to personalize it but I could.

I've never gotten an email from you. I just scanned my inbox and nothing.

If you have questions about moderation of these boards you need to contact the Community Manager, LauraS at community@cruisecritic.com

I don't 'favor' anyone. I don't even know the people here so it would be quite difficult for me to favor anyone. I told you the simple truth about why your post was deleted. I was trying to help you so you wouldn't make the same error again. If you're not happy with my explaination please feel free to contact Laura.
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Last edited by *Mach*; March 15th, 2008 at 01:03 PM.
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  #9  
Old March 15th, 2008, 03:49 PM
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Quote:

You've deleted a few of my posts and ignored request of mine to censor the posts of others.

In other words...

"I expect my posts to remain intact, while posts that I don't care for by others are to be censored at my direction."

Quote:
your post should be deleted for questioning the actions of the moderators
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  #10  
Old March 17th, 2008, 11:02 AM
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Thumbs down My thread...

It was my thread that got yanked. And I never got a message saying why (which would be nice).

Now, since I am not an owner/partner of this website, I would think I should be thanked for adding content, yet, instead I have an important post pulled, and no explanation given.

I freely admit that I am not a copyright lawyer, I have no idea what is copyright kosher and what isn't, but my question is, would it not be easier to edit/modify the original post instead of deleting the whole thread?

I agree that the removal of an important thread that talks about port safety in St. Lucia is reckless. The victims of this attack *walked* from the port... surely this information should be shared with fellow cruisers.

CMK
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Old March 17th, 2008, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshiremackat View Post
It was my thread that got yanked. And I never got a message saying why (which would be nice).

Now, since I am not an owner/partner of this website, I would think I should be thanked for adding content, yet, instead I have an important post pulled, and no explanation given.
Copyright info is posted under Community Guidelines Here's a link to the guidelines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshiremackat View Post
I freely admit that I am not a copyright lawyer, I have no idea what is copyright kosher and what isn't, but my question is, would it not be easier to edit/modify the original post instead of deleting the whole thread?
I just did a quick check new posts are currently appearing at a rate of 10 per minute. Certainly not all get read by hosts or moderators. I personally don't think that it's realistic to expect the hosts (who are volunteers) to take the time to edit, reference, send emails, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshiremackat View Post
I agree that the removal of an important thread that talks about port safety in St. Lucia is reckless. The victims of this attack *walked* from the port... surely this information should be shared with fellow cruisers.

CMK
I don't know if reckless is the correct word. However, I believe that if you repost the original information without a total cut & paste of copyrighted information that it would remain available for others to see. As noted in the Community Guidelines a link to the original web page is acceptable.

Hope this helps,

Charlie
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  #12  
Old March 17th, 2008, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshiremackat View Post
It was my thread that got yanked. And I never got a message saying why (which would be nice).

Now, since I am not an owner/partner of this website, I would think I should be thanked for adding content, yet, instead I have an important post pulled, and no explanation given.

I freely admit that I am not a copyright lawyer, I have no idea what is copyright kosher and what isn't, but my question is, would it not be easier to edit/modify the original post instead of deleting the whole thread?

I agree that the removal of an important thread that talks about port safety in St. Lucia is reckless. The victims of this attack *walked* from the port... surely this information should be shared with fellow cruisers.

CMK
I've been hoping that you would eventually come back and read this thread.

Just a couple of things. I believe that I am the one who added citations to your earlier thread, which caused the entire subject to be yanked. While I am more confused than ever, I do not think it was the info in your original post that created the problem...I think the problems were with my additional citations that supported your post.

So, accept my apology if it was MY additions that caused your thread to be pulled.

Sadly, you will see with this board that original comments and observations (including specific safety information) are not what REALLY matter, as motives reach far beyond sharing helpful information about cruising. There's a lot of self-righteous umbrage that exists and it's all about CRUISING, mind you...cruising! We're not sharing opinions about finding the cure for cancer here.

There are whole groups of cruise junkies and cruise groupies, many of whom are desperately devoted to one cruise line or another go figure, who will pounce on, insult, berate, criticize, argue with, etc ANYONE who posts information is perceived as challenging their notions about how to travel and how to perceive the world once you've traveled it

You will primarily get "flamed" or "challenged" by folks who have 1) many cruises under their belts, 2) many posts under their belts, 3) some type of invested interest in the subject matter with which, or the poster with whom you adversely address.

People like 98Charlie who has kindly responded is the exception to the rule, so to speak. I'm not trying to incite a riot here...I'm simply expressing what has been my experience.

It has gotten so bad at times, that I have begged DH to cancel our upcoming cruise plans and return to land/air travel but he refuses to do so. DH continually reminds me that the folks who post on this website signify approximately 1-2% of the entire population that cruises on any given day, so we've been told...someone will probably refute this point

And no, no, no, no...do NOT question the actions of the Moderator because that WILL get your post/thread pulled. After all, it is THEIR board and they have the sole right & discretion to edit or remove any topic/thread they deem is inappropriate, etc, etc, etc...just re-read the "Terms & Agreements" especially "Community Guidelines."

Having said all of that, I know COMPLETELY how you felt when you posted the article about the Top Model, etc, etc. When I visited St. Lucia recently, I was traumatized (no exaggeration) for weeks after my visit and no one wanted to hear it. Like you, I really wanted to help people and inform them about visiting St. Lucia and I felt so helpless to do so.

More than anything else, I felt very badly for most of the locals living there.

Long-story-short, people honestly believe that traveling to islands like Jamaica, Haiti and to some extent, St. Lucia and purchasing trips or little trinkets from locals is what will save the local economies and eventually, the islands. But this notion could not be further from the truth. DH & I have traveled all over the Caribbean (and other parts of the world) because I used to think this way too, until I became better informed.

If you are interested, I can send you abundant credible information about the crime and poverty on some Caribbean islands, including potential reasons why such problems exist more on certain islands than on others. Since my Dec '08 trip to St. Lucia, I have enmassed lots of info in the form of books, news articles, documentaries, websites, personal emails, etc, etc about the "hidden" crime problem on the island.

While it's complicated, most of the causes of violence against tourists have to do with the abject poverty and gross disparity in wealth that exists on these islands, from which locals see no way out, coupled with the deep resentment some locals hold against American, Canadian and British tourists, particularly cruisers.

You tried to do the right thing. You are not alone in your perceptions.
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Last edited by lovetodream; March 17th, 2008 at 01:17 PM.
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Old March 17th, 2008, 01:24 PM
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A little more to the story. This incident occurred in Pavees, which is off the beaten path for tourists. Here's another side of the story, from the St. Lucia Star:

http://www.stluciastar.com/NewsHome/...0/Default.aspx
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Old March 17th, 2008, 01:28 PM
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A little more to the story. This incident occurred in Pavees, which is off the beaten path for tourists. Here's another side of the story, from the St. Lucia Star:

http://www.stluciastar.com/NewsHome/...0/Default.aspx
Thank you so much for posting this info.

Before I even read the article, I thought to myself, "Well, if it is written by a journalist for the St. Lucia Star, it is CERTAINLY going to 1) downplay the incident, and 2) place the blame squarely on the VICTIMS and not the idyllic paradise that is St. Lucia.

This is status quo for all the info about personal and violent crimes that comes out of St. Lucia. However, to the Star's credit, they at least will print SOME of the crimes that occur against tourists. I said SOME, not ALL. Many island papers and police bloggers refuse to publish the crimes, unless they are "violent," ??????? like all personal muggings and such are not????

I just don't get it...actually, I do
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Old March 17th, 2008, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Spudhunter View Post
A little more to the story. This incident occurred in Pavees, which is off the beaten path for tourists. Here's another side of the story, from the St. Lucia Star:

http://www.stluciastar.com/NewsHome/...0/Default.aspx
Just thought of one other thing...crimes against tourists have also occured on Reduit Beach (my incident), in Rodney Bay, in Soufriere (my incident), at the volcano site, at the Mago Estate, in Castries, etc, etc, etc. Sadly, it doesn't occur only when folks are off the beaten path.

Since visiting St. Lucia, it seems to me that one of the safer spots (for some reason) is in Marigot Bay.
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Old March 18th, 2008, 01:04 PM
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Smile Nice Thread

Other than being partially high jacked it's very informative.
Been to St Lucia twice but booked boat excursion both times and never ventured in land. Did ask tour operator whom I know if reports are true and has it increased his business.
He is VERY busy was his reply! Shame he stated but may be a drug culture needing the quick buck.
Cruise passengers are always targets as they know you must catch the ship.

Now to another Island which will not be named. Was on a boat excursion 2 years ago and spotted a pistol in owners satchel. Asked about it and he stated for target practice and did not pursue it. Now I ran into a business associate who stated he is retiring and moving home to that same Island. After we chatted for an hour I asked about the the pistol. His comment was that the government issues them to prevent or deter violence against tourists as it would be devastating.

Saying this it's what we don't know that is good for us. Keeps your wits about yourself and travel in a small group. Or with very big dudes! LOL.

I think the same would happen where I am from if we had cruise ships coming in an tourists having to leave at a certain time. Probably all over the world for that matter.

Love the report of the Carnival cruise where the tourist resisted and broke the jerks neck and killed him next to the tour bus. He can travel with me anytime he wishes.

Happy Spring....
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Old March 18th, 2008, 01:58 PM
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Now to another Island which will not be named. Was on a boat excursion 2 years ago and spotted a pistol in owners satchel.
No need to name the island at all. If people care to be informed, a simple Google search tells it all...Jamaica, St. Lucia, St. Martin/St. Maarten, Barbados, Haiti, Tobago, etc, etc, etc... it's no secret that crime against tourists is on the rise on all of the "poorer" Caribbean islands.

But UNPROVOKED violent crime against tourists is more prevelant on St. Lucia.

Quote:
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Love the report of the Carnival cruise where the tourist resisted and broke the jerks neck and killed him next to the tour bus. He can travel with me anytime he wishes.
Missed this one...YIKES!
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Old March 18th, 2008, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by GSDsky View Post
Love the report of the Carnival cruise where the tourist resisted and broke the jerks neck and killed him next to the tour bus. He can travel with me anytime he wishes.

Happy Spring....
Found it...YIKES
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Old March 18th, 2008, 06:07 PM
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So when one doesn't like their visit to an island then it becomes an objective benefit to scream about crime dangers there...

OK - the Caribbean is nearly entirely third world so there is poverty and what comes with it, crime. Notice given, done.

Of course, the most highly publicized crime of recent years in the Caribbean was on one of the 'rich' islands - Aruba.

And of course, if one goes from NYC to Michigan, land of Detroit... or Florida for that matter, one could scream about crime risks without having to leave the neighborhood. But, that's home... and it was your day in St. Lucia that you didn't enjoy, right?
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Old March 18th, 2008, 06:41 PM
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So when one doesn't like their visit to an island then it becomes an objective benefit to scream about crime dangers there...

OK - the Caribbean is nearly entirely third world so there is poverty and what comes with it, crime. Notice given, done.

Of course, the most highly publicized crime of recent years in the Caribbean was on one of the 'rich' islands - Aruba.

And of course, if one goes from NYC to Michigan, land of Detroit... or Florida for that matter, one could scream about crime risks without having to leave the neighborhood. But, that's home... and it was your day in St. Lucia that you didn't enjoy, right?
Absolutely no comment except one--you're right...Detroit is a s**t hole, too
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Last edited by lovetodream; March 18th, 2008 at 06:45 PM.
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