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  1. You've had more than 100,000 deaths attributable to car accidents in the past 3 years. I don;t see anyone taking any action over that. Everyone is still driving. I see no moves to lockdown motoring to prevent those 100,000 deaths. We simply accept that they happen. They are an accepted part of life despite the tragedy of every life lost. Those who are unable to face up to such facts are simply cowards. Flu has killed millions but we don't care. Have never cared. Have never thought about wearing masks to protect those vulnerable from being killed, have never bothered to social distance. We have come to accept that every year up to 650,000 people die from Flu and many more from Pneumonia and that it simply happens, it's "natural", a part of life which we like to conveniently ignore, just so long as we can keep on living our lives the way we like. 100,000 deaths is tragic, but it IS nevertheless a tiny proportion of the US population. 0.03%. Perspective is needed in these matters not emotional rhetoric. What is ignored in the debate is the level of harm that would be done to the many millions of people you have to vaccinate in order to prevent the deaths of the tiny minority. When it comes to Flu vaccines that only have limited efficacy I'm not minded to go playing Russian Roulette with my health for that limited benefit. I will happily take my chances with Flu itself and thereby gain very strong natural immunity. I appreciate of course that others are at far increased risk from Flu and so the decision to have a shot is different. When it comes to vaccines that have been rushed through in the case of Covid and where corners are certain to have been cut and where the long term adverse impacts can not possibly known until the vaccines have been out there for years I again am not minded to get a shot. Add to that the fact that 90%+ of people have no serious issues with COVID at all and the argument for me to get vaccinated is pretty much nil. Again others who are vulnerable have a completely different risk assessment to make. All of which highlights the fact that vaccines MUST always be a personal decision and not an establishment/Pharma mandated edict. If cruise lines start mandating that people be vaccinated then they are going to lose a hell of a lot of custom, especially when the first few people start getting serious adverse side effects from the vaccines, which is inevitable.
  2. Flu kills up to 650,000 people globally every year and has done so for a long time. Any comparison is relevant. Plus: "FLU has killed more people in the UK than coronavirus for seven weeks in a row, new stats reveal today. Almost five times as many people are now dying of influenza or pneumonia than Covid-19, according to the latest data from the Office for National Statistics." "In the seven weeks up to July 31, the latest date for which figures are available, 2,992 people died of coronavirus - but 6,626 died of flu or pneumonia. A total of 1,002 died of influenza in the week up to June 19 - compared to 783 Covid-19 deaths. The gap has widened each week up to the end of last month when flu killed 928 people - almost five times as many as the 193 who lost their lives to coronavirus. Overall during that seven-week time frame, 6,626 people died of flu - and 2,992 died of coronavirus." https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/health-news/12374033/more-die-flu-coronavirus-seven-weeks/ Baseless speculation. Lots of those 650,000 flu deaths were of people who HAD been vaccinated.
  3. That's a nice sentiment Mcloaked, but the reality is no-one remotely cared about the colossal numbers of people that routinely die of Flu or Pneumonia or a plethora of other conditions. Up to 650,000 people every year die of Flu and loads more of Pneumonia. They too were someone's mother, father, brother, sister etc etc. This kind of emotional rhetoric is for me completely hypocritical. No-one was ever concerned about people coughing and spluttering their cold and flu germs at work or school or in restaurants, pubs, hotels or wherever. No-one was ever concerned that all those people doing so in public were putting the likes of vulnerable people at risk. No-one ever considered staying home or social distancing or wearing masks. Now we have COVID and suddenly everyone develops a conscience?! No, I just don't buy it. It's completely hypocritical. No. The TRUTH is that the numbers of badly affected people is utterly tiny. As we speak write there are only 1081 people in the UK hospitalised with COVID and only 138 people on ventilators. I wish them all a speedy recovery but in no sense of the word do those numbers represent "a significant number". It means just 0.0016% of the population is hospitalised and 0.00004% of the population are on ventilators. coronavirus.data.gov.uk/ The scaremongering by the media has to stop. It's gone on far too long imo and I just don't know how they have gotten away with it. It's high time the real salient numbers were given to the public. The total number of ACTUAL CASES there have been (not simply the confirmed cases which are the sick people) The total number of DEATHS CAUSED BY COVID (not simply the deaths where people happened to have Covid) The total number of RECOVERIES from people who have had no symptoms or mild symptoms They should also be testing EVERYONE not just the sick people with symptoms as that is farcical and totally disingenuous. There isn't even 1% of the entire population of 67 million people hospitalised with COVID let alone a cruise ship !! Wake up people !
  4. Thanks for admitting you got your number of 49 million wrong. A strange way to say it but thanks anyway
  5. How many people are you using for the population of the US??? 1.4% of 330,052,960 is 4.6 million. You had it at 49 million !
  6. I suggest you buy a new calculator. Your numbers are out. It doesn't matter what population numbers you use, the ratio is always going to the same. A reduction of 1.4%. US population is 330,052,960 Cochrane says that 23 in a 1000 un-vaccinated people would get flu which is 7,591,218 people Cochrane says 9 in 1000 vaccinated would also get flu which is 2,970,476 The difference is just 4,620,742 Whilst 4.6 million may sound like a lot out of context, when pitched against a population of 330 million it really isn't many at all. Is in fact of course just 1.4% !
  7. It's a sleight of hand misrepresentation of numbers I'm afraid. It's actually just a reduction in percentage points of 1.4% Essentially it is saying that without vaccination 23 people in every 1000 will get Flu. With vaccination only 9 people in every 1000 will get flu. The difference is just 14 people in a 1000 which is not much at all.
  8. This . . . . in spades ! Plus the fact that science now knows for example that the effectiveness of some vaccines drops off extremely fast, very worryingly so. For example flu vaccines thus: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/04/how-long-do-vaccines-last-surprising-answers-may-help-protect-people-longer ""a growing body of evidence that the protective immune responses triggered by flu vaccines wane in a matter of weeks persuaded Plotkin to return to the clinic. "The time and cost was trivial compared to the importance of influenza at my age," says Plotkin, 86. "With flu, we're not talking about getting a case of the sniffles." "It's not just flu. Recent studies show vaccines for mumps, pertussis, meningococcal disease, and yellow fever also lose their effectiveness faster than official immunization recommendations suggest. Vaccines have been a crucial public health tool for decades, so it may seem strange that their durability isn't well understood. But vaccines are approved and come to market years before it's clear how long protection lasts. Later, fading protection can go unnoticed because a vaccine in wide use has largely eliminated transmission of the microbes it protects against, making "breakthrough" infections rare. Even if viruses or bacteria are still in circulation, people vaccinated against them will sometimes receive natural boosting of their immunity. And declining vaccine immunity is not an all-or-nothing phenomenon: A breakthrough infection often leads to much less severe symptoms of the disease." Flu protection plummets "Seasonal flu vaccines protect against several influenza strains, including H3N2, the one that vaccines typically have the most trouble stopping. These U.S. data from 2011–2015 analyzed the effectiveness of vaccines against H3N2" "For the flu, both killed (also known as inactivated) and live virus vaccines exist—and neither offers sturdy protection. Even when they closely match the circulating strains of influenza viruses, both types protect only about 60% of vaccinated people. And those modest immune responses rapidly wane." "In a 2018 review of 11 recent studies on the durability of influenza vaccines, researchers concluded that effectiveness can vanish as soon as 90 days after vaccination. The article, published in Clinical Infectious Diseases, further noted that 20% of Americans received their flu vaccines for a given season by the end of September—which means the vaccine may do nothing come peak flu spread in January and February. "The further away you get from your vaccine, the higher the risk that you'll contract influenza," says study co-author Kunal Rambhia, a drug delivery specialist working on a Ph.D. at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. "This has huge implications."" So as ever the idealistic notions of pro-vaxxers comes up wanting. What possible use would a vaccine be if its effectiveness drops off a few weeks after the shots? Where does that leave safety? You could end up mandating that cruisers have NEW vaccines weeks before EVERY cruise they take to be sure it's working effectively which for me personally would be the biggest turn off imaginable and would see me never cruise again and I'm sure it would be the same for thousands of others. Vaccines ARE NOT a panacea. They are not a magic bullet. They vary massively in their efficacy, in the levels of harm they do to people and in the length of their effectiveness which is clearly very poor in some cases. Nothing is remotely straight forward in the vaccine debate. Nothing. These notions of "when a vaccine appears everything will go back to normal" are frankly hugely misplaced.
  9. Hi Hank I'd like to provide a couple of bits of info to help your understanding if I may: 1. The Australian Bacillus Calmette-Guerin (BCG) vaccine has live attenuated vaccine. Phase 3 trial started at the end of March You can track the many vaccines being developed on this useful website here. https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker 2. In the UK kids have been given a nasal flu shot containing live attenuated virus for the past 10 years. It is called Fluenz Tetra. I will park the debate about whether kids shedding that virus are a danger to others. Your misconception is common and usually arises from people who do not live in the UK. Different vaccines are used in different countries. As for the effectiveness of Flu shots that again is a debate that most pro-vaccine people don't want to have because Cochrane's systematic reviews of the Flu vaccines concluded that: "71 healthy adults need to be vaccinated to prevent one of them experiencing influenza, and 29 healthy adults need to be vaccinated to prevent one of them experiencing an ILI" On that basis no, I can't see any justification whatsoever for mandating flu vaccines for cruisers. Doing so would be patently absurd.
  10. This statement conceals a wider truth, which is that (ignoring cruises for a moment) the death toll associated with the national lockdowns is actually enormous and is a story yet to be told by the media. This is the number of deaths that have NOTHING to do with Covid itself but which are a direct result of the lockdown and associated matters. It is deaths occurring of people who had been frightened witless by a relentless media scaremongering campaign and who thus didn't go to see a GP or go to a hospital and chose instead to battle their illnesses and ailments alone at home, without help. It is the deaths that have occurred of people who needed treatments but were unable to because the NHS had scaled down its services massively to support a Covid crisis that never actually happened. It is the deaths associated with mental health and suicides that came as a result of either the loneliness, poverty, loss of jobs and the like. It is also a whole bunch of future deaths still waiting to happen for people who were unable or frightened to get things like cancers checked out early. Reports put the "non-covid" death toll of the lockdown anywhere from 30,000 to 50,000 people and the numbers of jobs lost close to 750,000 and that will likely rise when the furlough payments cease in October. Some suggest that we've killed more people by the lockdown itself than were actually prevented from dying of COVID. It's clear that we can not afford another lockdown. Doing so would be catastrophic and any suggestion of it should be opposed by all sensible people imo. What is needed is mass testing of the populous so that people know who has Covid and who does not, because Covid spreads as it does because so many asymptomatic people have no clue they are carrying and spreading it. If we test EVERYBODY instead of farcically only testing the sick people with symptoms, then people become informed and can isolate. That will stop the further spread of the virus. Of course testing everybody would then reveal the true situation of the number of people who have already had Covid and had no issues with it which is many millions of people and that would somewhat undermine the establishment's Project Fear narrative so I doubt it's going to happen any time soon. They will continue to only test the sick people with symptoms which has the natural and very obvious effect of raising the numbers of cases. It's staggering that the powers that be are still able to get away with all this nonsense using misleading figures that much of the public do not understand. The public should be given the full figures. The REAL number of COVID cases there have been (which is many millions) and the number of covid deaths that were specifically CAUSED by COVID. As it stands today there are only 1081 people in the UK hospitalised with COVID. That's just 0.0016% of the population. It's utterly tiny. There are only 138 people on ventilators. That's just 0.00004% of the population We need perspective and we are clearly not going to get that from the media's Project Fear campaign. It's up to each individual to do their own research and wake up to the real facts. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
  11. Good grief have you ever actually taken a cruise?!!!! Even before the advent of COVID your statement is ridiculous. If you get seriously sick on a ship, then a helicopter is called out and lifts you off and takes you to the nearest on-shore hospital. The cruise line contract for many lines requires that a passenger's travel insurance covers such eventualities. The P&O cruise line requirement for example is that your insurance must have a limit of not less than £2 million. I witnessed 3 helicopter evacuations from my various cruises in 2019 alone.
  12. There is for me still so much uninformed narrative in this thread. Some comments I've read: This is a common misconception. It's just not true. NOTHING but nothing you do will prevent a virus getting to you unless you walk around in a Hazmat suit. It needs to be understood that EVERYONE has the same chance of any given virus getting onto their hands or in their mouth. It is what happens AFTER that point that vaccines and natural immunity affect. The aim of a vaccine is to allow your body to mount a swift response WHEN THE VIRUS DOES enter your body. Which it STILL WILL DO at some point. Please can we get this part understood. Vaccines DO NOT prevent viruses getting into your body. They are not a force shield. I truly do not believe this for a second. Everyone is at risk of picking up a virus from a surface or from the air whether they are vaccinated or not. Once that happens there is a period of time where that person is contagious and can pass the virus to others by touching their mouth, touching surfaces etc. Their bodies will then mount a response to the virus so that they will not suffer serious issues with it however THEY STILL DO HAVE THE VIRUS, it's just that your immune response is able to deal with it. This being the case, with 1000s of people being in such confined shared spaces on a ship, the virus is still going to spread even if you have been vaccinated. I want to iterate again that being vaccinated DOES NOT stop you from carrying and spreading the virus to others. A kid who had the MMR vaccine still carried mumps from the UK to the USA and sparked an outbreak there. Source: https://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/08/mumps.outbreak.northeast/index.html He was fully vaccinated yet still carried mumps and spread it to others. In fact scientists have now identified very serious risks with any vaccines that contain LIVE virus rather than inactivated virus. Those vaccinated are known to spread virus for up to 2 weeks after their shots. Thus, the very opposite of what people generally think about vaccines on cruise ships is actually true. If the vaccine that gets the green light contains LIVE virus then those people will be shedding COVID for up to 2 weeks after their shots which could be utterly disastrous if they stepped on board a cruise ship. They would shed it in their urine, in their faeces, and elsewhere. COVID would spread just as Norovirus does. So actually having lots of recently vaccinated passengers on board could be an absolute recipe for disaster and would certainly not be a holiday I would want to take. It's already bad enough in the UK with kids getting nasal flu shots which contain LIVE virus and then shedding flu virus around for 1-2 weeks. As covered above, these statements are simply not true and very likely the complete reverse would be true if the vaccine contains LIVE virus. It would be YOU the vaccinated person putting the rest of us at risk. My personal opinion is that those people who insist on getting vaccinations that contain LIVE virus should be mandatory isolated and quarantined at home for a period of no less than 2 weeks to protect the rest of society. No-one should be allowed to step on a ship if they have been vaccinated with live virus in the 2 weeks prior to sailing imo. I will make one final point which concerns immunity. It is utterly nonsensical to suggest that those who are vaccinated have any better immunity from COVID than those who have had actually COVID. Natural immunity is always better than vaccine derived immunity imo. In either case it is your own body mounting the immune response, not a vaccine. Therefore if anything is going to be mandated for cruising it MUST take account of people who have had COVID. If you need a certificate to prove you've been vaccinated then you should also be able to get a certificate to say you've had COVID and thus equally have immunity and therefore don't need to be vaccinated. Anything else is a blatant abuse of Pharma power to sell vaccines imo.
  13. My primary source is the internationally respected Cochrane Institute which sets the "gold standard" benchmark for medical testing and which establishes the testing protocols for many organisations around the world. It is also used extensively by the NHS who consider it thus: The Cochrane Library is a database of reliable evidence on the effectiveness of healthcare interventions. It is regarded as the best resource available of this type." "When should you use the Cochrane Library? "The Cochrane Library should be used when looking for the best evidence on the effectiveness of treatment and health promotion interventions. The best type of evidence comes from systematic reviews and randomised controlled trials (RCTs). It is also a source of information on the methodology of systematic reviews. It should be used when looking for information on the effectiveness of an intervention https://www.epsom-sthelier.nhs.uk/download.cfm?ver=11976 Cochrane's systematic reviews of vaccines, treatments, drugs and the like are second to none and an extremely valuable resource for everyone. So when Cochrane say they have systematically reviewed Flu vaccines and concluded that they only prevent 1 person in every 71 vaccinated from getting Flu, I tend to believe them. I have no reasons not to believe their research. Consequently I don't bother getting Flu shots.
  14. It's about choice. Freedom to decide what personal risks we wish to take or not to take. Those who choose to be vaccinated, good luck to them. Leave the rest of us to make our own decisions. Vaccines should not be mandated, on cruises or anywhere else.
  15. Aha so now we come down to the detail. Most vaccines are not 100% effective yes. So the choice of whether to have one is not a straightforward one. We need to know what it's efficacy actually is, and that won't be proven until the vaccine has been out there, in use, for a significant amount of time, maybe 1-2 years imo. We also need to understand what harms come from it and again that won't be evident for 1-2 years imo. The risk assessment is unique to each person, just as assessing one's risk of COVID is. Some people are at significant risk from COVID, some are not. Everyone's circumstances are different and unique. The same applies to vaccines. It's an assessment of risks. The limited benefits, which as you say will be less than 100% effectiveness, pitched against the risks of being harmed. Everyone should be free to make that risk assessment according to their own unique circumstances.
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