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Everything posted by harkinmr

  1. I think you did a fine job. It can be a great experience to see how the process really works. I think most lay people expect Perry Mason or LA Law. Lol!
  2. Thanks for the blow-by-blow on the proceedings jrapps. Very interesting indeed.
  3. This type of personalization of the CDC’s instructions on the transit mask requirement for ships not following the CSO voluntarily is really becoming over the top. The CSO allowed for an exemption to the transit mask mandate for cruise lines based on compliance with the order. It makes perfect sense that any failure to continue to voluntarily comply with the overall provisions of the order while sailing out of Florida would result in the reimposition of the full mask mandate, as well as testing and other sanitation protocols. The cruise lines are going to continue to comply with the CSO provisions for the very reason that it is in their best interests and because of the administrative nightmare involved in trying to comply with the order in other jurisdictions while not complying in Florida. The lines understand the concepts of unintended consequences and “be careful what you wish for” even if many cruisers do not. All of this so flies in the face of common sense as we have seen so aptly demonstrated by the now devastating impact of the Delta variant directly related to vaccine hesitancy. It needs to stop.
  4. It’s never a good idea to selectively quote from a post or fail to reflect context. It just makes your response appear misguided. I never said that government agencies had inherent powers. They are given their regulatory powers pursuant to legislation, as in this case with the CDC. https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/Mask-Order-CDC_GMTF_01-29-21-p.pdf
  5. If these laws must apply to all equally, as you say, then the cruise lines that are sailing from other states would also have a valid claim that the “onerous”provisions of the CSO that apply to them must also apply equally to those within the jurisdiction of Florida. Why should they be subject to such unequal treatment in the eyes of the law? It is not “neglect of duty” as the mandates for masking and other health protocols, as well as testing and reporting of COVID-19 and other infectious diseases onboard for reentry to the US are encompassed within the CSO. The CDC is simply providing a reminder to the cruise lines that health protocols and infection control will apply notwithstanding that the CSO has no further legal enforcement claim in the State of Florida. You seem to see this as some sort of vendetta by the CDC and akin to political persecution. Perhaps if you backed away from that and simply looked at it as a means for protecting public health and the control of infectious disease in the absence of the no sail order it would look less villainous. The VSP lives on as it always has. It really is all a moot point, as it appears very clear that the cruise lines will continue to comply with the guidance and recommendations of the CDC for all sailings out of Florida. We can all only hope and celebrate this approach, as not doing so would surely prove to be a disaster in the making under the current circumstances.
  6. You are correct. This is getting absurd, because some posters are carrying their “theories” to illogical extremes. The CDC and its public transportation mandate would not apply to transportation within a foreign country as that “tour bus” trip did not originate from, nor would it be returning to the US. And mask requirements are in fact incorporated into the CSO. There have been adjustments to those requirements under the order in the case of vaccinated cruises meeting the 95/98 threshold, as well as modifications for certain venues and outdoor locations.
  7. https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/Mask-Order-CDC_GMTF_01-29-21-p.pdf Personal insults prove nothing but a desperate need to denigrate when you have no other resource. The CDC garners its regulatory power under the federal statute giving HHS its public health mandate, including its powers during a Public Health Emergency. Regulatory power is very broad in its nature for any public entity.
  8. https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/face-masks-public-transportation.html You make this so easy. The CDC has established regulations pursuant to its authority under federal law in many ways aside from the Conditional Sail Order. Federal law provides them with regulatory control over cruise ships. Their mandates clearly cover all sorts of public transportation, including maritime under federal maritime law. This would include any transit mask mandate. Now, you show me a federal code citation where it establishes that the CDC does not have this power.
  9. They are public transportation and have been designated as such by the CDC for purposes of the public transit mask mandate. Google it.
  10. You need to do some research. This has been discussed repeatedly. The language you highlight speaks directly to the fact that compliance is expected at all times outside US waters and airspace in order to reenter the US. You will also want to research the concept of “free pratique” which requires compliance will all federal regulations even outside US waters in order to freely reenter a US port.
  11. That was not the point of the Florida suit. The point of the Florida suit was that the CSO was issued outside the scope of the CDC’s legal mandate. Florida has not supported CDC guidance as has been abundantly demonstrated by the Governor’s approach to COVID-19 protocols from the start of the pandemic and his assertions that he can prevent the cruise lines from mandating vaccines. One must also keep in mind that until there is a final resolution on the underlying lawsuit that the CSO remains in full force and effect in every other state outside Florida. There is no cruise line that is going to work outside the scope of the order and incur the administrative nightmares that would naturally follow from doing so.
  12. You are personalizing the response by the CDC and that is a mistake. This is a legal game and that is all. This is not “punishment” and Judge Merryday will not have a say. The public transportation mandate is separate and distinct from the CSO. It does not stop at international waters. It continues during the length of the voyage and must be maintained to reenter the US. It’s very clear that the cruise lines will continue to comply with the CDC rules notwithstanding the preliminary injunction in Florida. Royal Caribbean and CLIA have already made statements to that effect. Anyone expecting dramatic changes to the way cruise ships operate out of Florida will surely be disappointed.
  13. Under the topic “be careful what you wish for”: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cdc-says-mask-rules-apply-022106563.html
  14. Any extension of the CSO will depend upon circumstances at the time. I do not predict that one will take place simply “because”. That is a scare tactic used on a regular basis and lacks context. If conditions deteriorate here because of continued vaccine hesitancy and new variants, I would expect a continuation of vaccine requirements and protocols on a voluntary basis by the cruise lines. I see any sort of further no sail order to only be issued under extraordinary circumstances. Mediation was tried twice. The second time was when the judge ordered the parties back to mediation to negotiate a replacement CSO while his injunction was stayed. That obviously didn’t work either. I don’t anticipate that the appellate court would further engage with that type of resolution. The issue wasn’t conducive to mediation then, and it certainly isn’t now.
  15. It’s the same discussion and talking points over and over again. And the end result is predictable. My question is whether some folks do it simply to achieve that result from the start.
  16. It was unproductive when the trial court judge did it as well...both times. Without making any premature assumptions about the appellate court opinions, it is possible that they could comment on the analysis and rationale used by Judge Merryday for purposes of issuing the preliminary injunction. That, in turn, could impact the trial on the merits. I would also assume that the CDC would further appeal any unfavorable trial court verdict. This is far from over no matter how the chips fall. By the time there is a resolution, the CSO will have expired. The resolution will, however, impact the CDC and the cruise lines going forward when the next pandemic hits.
  17. While the initial stay ruling did not comment on the merits of the underlying case, there will be opinions to follow which will likely address both the merits and the issuance of the preliminary injunction. I think we have to reserve any judgments as to the impact of the ruling until we see the rationale of the court.
  18. Federal agencies of all kinds have always had the power to regulate. This is nothing new. There will also always be challenges to that power, but it will never go away entirely.
  19. I did not say that I had any inside knowledge as to the state’s litigation process, I simply stated a fact. Venue shopping is a common practice.
  20. Well, if truth be told, there is a certain amount of "venue shopping" with any lawsuit.
  21. It has been reported in the US media in a few places like Florida. And the author of the piece reports for AP as well. Once the opinions are released I suspect we will see more coverage.
  22. 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has stayed the lower court’s injunction pending appeal. Opinions will follow. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9799441/Court-stays-judges-ruling-CDC-enforce-COVID-cruise-ship-rules-July-18.html
  23. The tweet and Tony’s video at La Lido Loca from this morning on this (Gene’s source) have both been removed. He may have received inaccurate info.
  24. You are correct in one regard. The Florida vaccine passport ban does apply, however, Carnival has opted to sail with not less than 95% vaccinated passengers. They did this to avoid test cruises. The workaround to the ban is that passengers confirm their vaccine status online or by phone prior to sailing and then voluntarily submit their proof at boarding. If they do not, they are considered unvaccinated and could be denied boarding if the 5% unvaccinated cap has been reached. If Carnival sails with more than 5% unvaccinated passengers, then they are in violation of the CDC requirement and could lose their certification to sail. At least this is the way it is “supposed” to work.
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