K.T.B.

56 minutes ago, paulh84 said:

 

Not so sure about that. In the grand scheme of things, the CDC has not wavered in more than a year. CSO still stands. Requirements still need met. COVID regulation lives on. Cruises were not a priority of COVID management. Vaccinations and controlling the spread were the top priority for the first 100 days of the new administration. Today is day 99.

 

These 'productive' conversations between CDC and cruiselines also apparently stated almost exactly at the point where we started to reach 50% of the US population 18+ having at least one dose. I'm not sold that this is all coincidental and the CDC buckled to the pressure of some angry cruisers. 

Hence the reason I said, "it feels like."

19 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

I still say October of this year.  But the CDC needs to step up their game and actually give some guidance rather than a check list.  IMO, they can start working towards test cruises as early as mid-June.

Well, based on what the CDC said late yesterday, I wasn't too far off on my earliest guess.  Still up to the cruise lines to get their act together.

EDIT to add:  LINK

Whether accurate or not, it feels like the outside pressures of the cruise lines, congress, and the general public has forced the CDC to acquiesce to softening their stance and making things simpler.  Now it's up to the lines to step up to the plate if they want to start in mid-July. No more grandstanding.  They got the CDC to blink, now they need to follow through.

10 hours ago, MaryZ said:

they get to be tied to the back of the ship in their own accommodations...lifeboats!

I second this  To the dinghy with them!  

It's the unvaccinated that'll be in "trouble" more than those who are vaccinated.  I'd probably cruise, as long as there's a guarantee that A) the cruise doesn't end immediately, B) those who are symptomatic are quarantined to their room, and C) any financial hardships incurred are passed along to those who stupidly boarded a ship unvaccinated.

1 hour ago, mayleeman said:

Left unsaid in the CDC notice is how the cruise line must verify that someone has been vaxxed.....

We all have those cards.  Granted, they're easily faked, but it's all that we have for now.  They'll know for sure about the crew however.

On 7/9/2020 at 10:14 PM, K.T.B. said:

Yes it is.

 

I just hope that light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming train, however.  

I'm certainly glad my initial comment in this thread didn't come true!  

Wouldn't it be ironic if cruising restarted on July 9, 2021?  One year exactly from when this thread began.

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

That is not correct, the CSO is a set of requirements.  It is not up to the CDC to develop action plans that would be unique to each company and/or each ship.  This is how regulators work.  They set the requirements, and then industry comes up with detailed action plans on how to implement those requirements.  Even though the CDC does not have jurisdiction over hospitals, they set a list of recommendations for hospitals.  Do you think any hospital has only used those recommendations to implement those recommendations?  No, they will make an action plan that takes into account the specific conditions at that hospital, and based on their willingness to expend money meeting the recommendations.  That action plan will spell out in detail what every member of the hospital staff needs to know to implement the recommendations, in everything that they do.  The Healthy Sail Panel report is nowhere near an "actionable and robust" action plan.  The CDC has not taken issue with it, it just does not rise to the level of detail required.  As my usual example, while the Healthy Sail Panel is 69 pages, the VSP (Vessel Sanitation Program), used to control other infectious diseases, runs to a 129 page construction manual, and a 239 page operations manual.  This is the level of detail required.

If anyone on here knows their stuff, it's you.  What you point out makes complete sense to me and I want to seriously thank you for your efforts.  However,I do want to point out though, as far as what's been released to the public at large, has been called "recommendations".  And this is why the majority of people are upset at what appears to be the lack of any movement. 

When you read through the CSO, you see a lot of lines that are similar to, "CDC recommends that cruise ship operators."  While I'm sure there other instances where it says "requirements" elsewhere, but the only place I have found it so far is when the CDC says the following:  "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued the next phase of technical guidance under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) requiring cruise lines to establish agreements at ports where they intend to operate, implement routine testing of crew, and develop plans incorporating vaccination strategies to reduce the risk of introduction and spread of COVID-19 by crew and passengers."

But later on, on the same page, it says, "CDC will continue to update its guidance and recommendations to specify basic safety standards and public health interventions based on the best scientific evidence available."

LINK

Hence the complete and utter confusion between whether they're just offering guidance or if they're actually demanding/requiring the lines to do something.  Based on your comments, it's probably the latter, but the way they've handled it, it comes across as the former.

Again, thanks for your insight.  It's always welcome.  here's hoping in the next month or so someone gets a swift kick in the rear end so we can all get back to just talking about chair hogs and what to wear in the dining room.

4 hours ago, nocl said:

The Healthy Sail Panels report is not a plan.  It is a set of recommendations that a cruise line can use as a reference when and if they develop their plan and protocols, but the report is certainly not a plan.

 

The CLIA sent in that report with a request that the CSO be dropped.  They have not complied with the requirements of the CSO.  While some ships have met the requirements for safe crew transfer, they have not:

 

1. put port agreements in place

2. submitted plans and protocols to the CDC for test cruises, which are by ship.

3. Conducted test cruises

4. Provided the signed paperwork by cruise line management to resume cruises out of the US.

 

As required by the CSO.

With all due respect, the CSO is a set of recommendations, too.  Just like the CDC recommends all passengers and crew members be vaccinated.

8 hours ago, Miaminice said:

 

Royal Caribbean and NCL founded the Healthy Sail Panel in 2020 already. 

They came up with guidelines and recommendations which were submitted to the CDC for approval quite some time ago. The guidlines can be viewed on the website.

 

Here's the plan if anyone wants to read the 69 pages.  And this was done all prior to vaccines being out.

LINK

Trying to figure out why the CDC would take issue with it, assuming they read or acknowledged it.

I still say October of this year.  But the CDC needs to step up their game and actually give some guidance rather than a check list.  IMO, they can start working towards test cruises as early as mid-June.

3 hours ago, harkinmr said:

They most certainly do have regulatory authority over cruise lines.  Just look at the Vessel Sanitation Program that the lines are already subject to.  The CDC has very broad authority to regulate interstate and international commerce in order to manage infectious diseases, including the authority to approve methods for the restart of cruises within the context of this pandemic.

 

The CDC will likely take the success (or failure) of cruises taking place in the summer from outside the US into account in their ongoing discussions with the cruise lines.

They have a broad authority?  They have never once prevented people from using airlines, buses, or trains during the past year.  And in terms of "regulating them", the most they've said is what they always say:  wear masks, social distancing, etc.  IMO, planes were far more responsible for the virus being spread in the US than cruise ships.  

But thanks for pointing out the Vessel Sanitation Program.  My research failed to bring it up.  Be that as it may, cruise lines have more than managed this disease on recent cruises, far better than any country.

1 minute ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Here's some good news from the CDC director regarding the movement towards flattening the curve. Hopefully it continues.

 

CDC director sees 'a really hopeful decline' as Covid cases in the U.S. fall (msn.com)

 

And here's the JHU link I check out every morning to see how my state (and others) are doing. What's really interesting is when you click on a State and then their State Profile link, how few beds are being taken up by COVID patients. A MUCH smaller percentage than in the past.

 

Have we flattened the curve in the US? - Johns Hopkins (jhu.edu)

That JHU link is extremely interesting.  I'm also very disappointed that Illinois only has a quarter of its population fully vaccinated.

2 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

They likely won't be substituted as the CSO "test" cruises because they are not being completed under the oversight of the CDC, including inspections of the sailings with the protocols in practice.

CDC has no regulatory authority over cruise lines though, which is the frustration.  Their authority is strictly health related.  If cruise lines can prove their ability to sail safely (i.e. foreign port cruises), the CDC should look into it IF they seriously are willing to work with cruise lines.  That doesn't seem to be the case though....

8 hours ago, centurycruiser said:

*Argument.

(Yeah, I'm that guy.  )

11 hours ago, markeb said:

Outrageous analogy time:

 

Let's say the FAA required the airline you're planning to fly to your cruise to ground their fleet and work with the aircraft manufacturer on a major avionics software upgrade following an NTSB investigation that found that software was the root cause of a significant incident. The airline instead decided to make a bunch of public statements about the FAA, bring in a lobbying firm, and ultimately publicly, and maybe even in a letter, propose to instead do mechanical inspections of an unrelated subsystem. Would people be defending the airline against the evil, uncompromising FAA and demanding to fly on those planes? Because that's what I'm hearing here.

 

And now back to vaccines.

 

 

Outrageous is right.  The FAA's sole responsibility is to regulate all aspects of civil aviation.  Whereas the CDC's responsibility is a national public health agency.  Technically, they have as much right to regulate cruising as does the governor of Florida.  BUT since this is a pandemic, and the previous administration gave the authority, they can impose restrictions on travel.  So with the number of vaccinations increasing (97 million are fully vaccinated, with 141 million with at least 1 dose, as of April 27th), and the new guidelines that they released yesterday, their regulating the stoppage should come to an end.  At the very least, it's time for the correct agencies to start regulating cruise ships again.

It's been proven already that we can cruise safely, if the European/Mediterranean cruises are any indication.  400,000+passengers, only 50 Covid cases.  ALL pre-vaccine.  But because the CDC didn't have a hand in it, it's being ignored.  The FAA wouldn't ignore it if it was affecting the airlines, just because it was happening outside of the US.  It's that simple.

People can say all they want about the cruise lines need to do X, Y, & Z to get cruising again.  Well, guess what?  They have.  Just not with ships leaving the US.  Why?  Because they're not being held back by an agency that shouldn't be regulating them, so they sail from foreign ports.  Successfully and with extremely minimal issues.  But, again, it's being ignored.  

In a very short amount of time, more than half of the population of the US will be fully vaccinated.  It's time for people to see that this light has finally reached the end of the tunnel and we're close to exiting it, albeit still with the need for masks, but not outside! 

1 hour ago, nocl said:

I assume you did notice the still take protective measures such as wear masks, even if fully vaccinated indoors or outdoors at a crowded effect.

Of course.  

Going to post this here, even though I posted it elsewhere.  These new guidelines from the CDC, IMO, pretty much shoot down the need for the CSO, except for the possibility of test cruises and the definite need for passengers & crew to be vaccinated.  This list show cruises can operate within vaccination guidelines.

32 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

So looking at the full chart, fully vaccinated people can resume all indoor and outdoor activities but for some a mask is still recommended.  Yes they will now have to address cruising on fully vaccinated ships.   

The CDC should now allow the ships to do test cruises as long all the passengers and crew are vaccinated.  That new guideline indicates that, according to the CDC, it would perfectly safe to do so.

I wonder how long until the lines request that.

17 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

Simple solution : all cruise lines & ships sail from foreign ports  until the CDC gets its act together . Financial & political pressure would be hot & heavy from all states with cruise ports  because of those extra tourist bucks  & jobs

Well, IMO, with their new guidelines today for those who are fully vaccinated, I think it pretty much does away with the CSO as long as all the cruise lines require all its passengers and crew to be vaccinated.  BUT ALL the cruise lines need to make it a requirement.

27 minutes ago, dog said:

Please post your source. I am trying to find out more about the test cruises. I did not think this meant the UK only ones, but wows posts says so 

 

 

It's just logic.  A test is just that, a test.  They'd need to use the people to test ever conceivable issue or situation that could arise.  They'd also test dining room procedures, disembarkations, etc,

Look at it as when you're testing, say, a computer program or game.  You need to test everything that could happen with it, run it through its paces in every way possible. 

Just putting people on a ship to party wouldn't help the cruise line to find its weaknesses or strengths.  This is why it's called "a test".

4 minutes ago, DSJ28 said:

The CDC guidelines seem to indicate all indoor and outdoor activities are safe for fully vaccinated people (some with masking needed, some with no masking needed). Am I understanding this correctly? If so, doesn't that mean cruising for fully vaccinated people around other fully vaccinated people is safe and can move forward? 

324153_choosingSaferActivities11.pdf 794.1 kB · 1 download

One would think.........   These new guidelines kinda neuter the need for the CSO

19 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

 

CDC just updated their outdoor mask rules and I would think "skiing" would also fall into the outdoor category which includes walking, hiking, biking and running category.

 

People who are fully vaccinated against the Covid-19 virus don’t need to wear masks when walking, hiking, biking, running alone or gathering in small groups outside, federal health officials said, taking a major step to ease pandemic restrictions while encouraging more people to get shots.

The same applies to dining at a restaurant outside, and to small outdoor gatherings that include some unvaccinated people, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Tuesday.

 

CDC Eases Mask Guidelines for Vaccinated People Outdoors (msn.com)

IMO, just a another reason to make sure cruise only have fully vaccinated people on board, crew and passengers!

Here's the new guidelines:

23 minutes ago, gmjc2 said:

We have the June 12th out of St.Marteen so that should sail unless some major changes occur.

On the other hand we have a TA from Barcelona to FT. Lauderdale booked for Nov 10th. It has two potential issues to overcome.

1. It is 15 days

2. Has to arrive at an American port.

 

If the CDC rules apply to arrivals as well as departures then we need those two issues to be resolved before we can be sure of that cruise!

Not 100% sure, but I think the "7 day limit" is only for cruises sailing OUT of the US, not into.  I may be wrong though.