Tipping

Hear hear, we simply prefer to pay ours with envelopes. If they increase the fare and invoice it as a service charge, I would still tip for good service.

So, I should have said "these are not tips, it is a service charge that weshould all pay". If people start removing the "discretionary" service charge of £6 per person per day, I will bet all my hard earned that there will be plenty of folk who don't give the equivalent amount in tips to those they feel do deserve it.

I do feel P&O are largely at fault for saying it is discretionary. Either have a mandatory service charge, or just go back to the old way of tipping for everybody.

So, I should have said "these are not tips, it is a service charge that weshould all pay". If people start removing the "discretionary" service charge of £6 per person per day, I will bet all my hard earned that there will be plenty of folk who don't give the equivalent amount in tips to those they feel do deserve it.

I do feel P&O are largely at fault for saying it is discretionary. Either have a mandatory service charge, or just go back to the old way of tipping for everybody.

Even with the envelope system there have always been people who did not pay and some of the people who opt out of autotip do not pay. But that is not everyone and as you can see some on here would rather choose who or how much to tip. For 2 weeks in March on Britannia we had all our meals put in front of us with no word, smile or any eye contact and a cabin steward who was much the same. I must say that this is the first time it has happened to us. We didn't cancel the autotip but regretted it afterwards and vowed to choose who to tip and how much in future. Unless forced otherwise that is what we will do.

So, I should have said "these are not tips, it is a service charge that we should all pay". If people start removing the "discretionary" service charge of £6 per person per day, I will bet all my hard earned that there will be plenty of folk who don't give the equivalent amount in tips to those they feel do deserve it.

 

I do feel P&O are largely at fault for saying it is discretionary. Either have a mandatory service charge, or just go back to the old way of tipping for everybody.

Now you are wishing for a system that doesn't exist and criticising people who don't comply with that imaginary system.

The system is what the system is, and the power to change that system is in P&O's hands.The system is there is a discretionary service charge.

Discretionary, meaning optional, non-compulsory, voluntary, at one's discretion, up to the individual, non-mandatory, elective, open to choice; open, unrestricted; permissive, etc.

So whether people do use their discretion to pay or remove the service charge is entirely up to them, and really nothing to do with you.

I can imagine that when some people remove the service charge and leave a 'tip' then it will be for a lower amount, as £12 per cabin per day is an absurd amount for a 'tip' for the waiter service / chamber maid element of the cruise. It is way beyond a 'tip' and is a substantial portion of a wage.

Here is an interesting article on gratuities, taken from The Daily Telegraph, back in 2013. There is a table for comparison, obviously it is four years out of date, but it shows how P&O compared then, and I doubt too much has changed now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/cruises/articles/Cruises-guide-to-gratuities-and-tips/

According to the p&o website buffet staff also benefit from the service charge.

I'd imagine that those who use the envelope system might not be aware of that (I know I never did when I used to use the envelope system). There is a risk that tips overall are reduced for them and more 'invisible'* bar and lounge staff (less in the service charge pot and no individual tips) while more forward facing bar and restaurant staff benefit both from those who leave the service charge on and the individual tips.

(*by invisible I mean the person behind the bar who I never speak to rather than the person who brings my drink; the junior waiter or bus boy I'm less likely to have direct contact with versus the main waiter who serves my actual meal etc.

It seems junior waiters etc get 75p an hour for a minimum 11 hours a day, 7 days a week for months on end. I guess buffet staff get the same amount or even less. The service charge (or tips, or gratuities etc) is there for people earning literally peanuts.

We passengers must seem incredibly wealthy to them. Well, we are in actual fact.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/apr/29/cruise-firm-performance-bonuses-tips

Knowing who to tip individually is a minefield. Singling out a few just doesn't seem as fair to me as the automatic service charge. If there is someone you don't think deserves it there is always the option to mark them down on the satisfaction survey in which case it's withheld.

I also used to find it a bit overwhelming trying to choose which bar staff to tip so that's another reason we prefer autotips. We get served by dozens of different people in the bars and lounges and we found that on the last night we might not see the staff we had planned on tipping (not to mention there is the overall issue of whether it's fair to single out bar and lounge staff just because I took a shine to them, or we recognised some faces better than others etc - what about the person who spent an evening serving us in one lounge that we didn't see again, they don't get the tip under the envelope system. When they are earning so pitiably little, allowing a measly £6 a day out of a cruise that has so far cost us close to £5k seems just a little odd to me.

As the service generally is very good, it would be easier to single out one or two who didn't provide good service than a few who did. It's difficult to imagine walking around with 30 odd different envelopes for all the different staff though if people say they do then I will believe them.

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According to the p&o website buffet staff also benefit from the service charge.

 

I'd imagine that those who use the envelope system might not be aware of that (I know I never did when I used to use the envelope system). There is a risk that tips overall are reduced for them and more 'invisible'* bar and lounge staff (less in the service charge pot and no individual tips) while more forward facing bar and restaurant staff benefit both from those who leave the service charge on and the individual tips.

 

(*by invisible I mean the person behind the bar who I never speak to rather than the person who brings my drink; the junior waiter or bus boy I'm less likely to have direct contact with versus the main waiter who serves my actual meal etc.

 

It seems junior waiters etc get 75p an hour for a minimum 11 hours a day, 7 days a week for months on end. I guess buffet staff get the same amount or even less. The service charge (or tips, or gratuities etc) is there for people earning literally peanuts.

 

We passengers must seem incredibly wealthy to them. Well, we are in actual fact.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/apr/29/cruise-firm-performance-bonuses-tips

 

 

Knowing who to tip individually is a minefield. Singling out a few just doesn't seem as fair to me as the automatic service charge. If there is someone you don't think deserves it there is always the option to mark them down on the satisfaction survey in which case it's withheld.

 

I also used to find it a bit overwhelming trying to choose which bar staff to tip so that's another reason we prefer autotips. We get served by dozens of different people in the bars and lounges and we found that on the last night we might not see the staff we had planned on tipping (not to mention there is the overall issue of whether it's fair to single out bar and lounge staff just because I took a shine to them, or we recognised some faces better than others etc - what about the person who spent an evening serving us in one lounge that we didn't see again, they don't get the tip under the envelope system.

 

As the service generally is very good, it would be easier to single out one or two who didn't provide good service than a few who did. It's difficult to imagine walking around with 30 odd different envelopes for all the different staff though if people say they do then I will believe them.

 

 

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A good explanation why we should leave the autotips on and give extra to crew who give us outstanding service.

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Thanks Grapau - I just worked out that the £5k total we've paid on this cruise is equivalent to nearly two years salary for a junior waiter on a p&o cruise ship (20 months) without tips.

It's equivalent to over a years salary when bonuses are included.

For me, that puts it into perspective.

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Excellent post Claudiniusmaximus. To the average member of Indian or Philippine crew we are all the equivalent of millionaires. The fact that we would spend several thousands, or even tens of thousands, just on a holiday and then deprive them of a wage (most of which is sent back to their families) that I suggest few Brits would even be prepared to get of bed for must upset them deeply. On two of our eleven P&O cruises, where we'd received poor service, I did remove the auto charge and tipped the same amount to the staff who we had received good service from. Now I always pay it as my conscience won't let me stop it. Like most people, I feel that it should be incorporated into the fare, but until then I'm the sucker who pays the auto charge and still feels the need to tip the steward!

Just had an all-inclusive holiday to Spain 5 star. No suggestions of tipping. Majority of staff were Eastern European. How many use their on-board credit or shares to pay for their tips?

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Thanks Grapau - I just worked out that the £5k total we've paid on this cruise is equivalent to nearly two years salary for a junior waiter on a p&o cruise ship (20 months) without tips.

 

It's equivalent to over a years salary when tips are included.

 

For me, that puts it into perspective.

 

 

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It does and they are away from their wives, husband's,kids and parents too and all to earn a little money and give us a fantastic cruise.

We should never begrudge them our tips.

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When they are earning so pitiably little, allowing a measly £6 a day out of a cruise that has so far cost us close to £5k seems just a little odd to me.

If you are paying £5k then obviously £6 a day makes no difference and you are obviously not booking a cruise based on the cost.

However at the other end of P&O's pricing scale, they are able to shave 8% off the headline price by not mentioning the discretionary service charge. That sells more cruises and makes more money.

If staff are being exploited, the blame for this sits firmly on the shoulders of P&O's directors.

If you are paying £5k then obviously £6 a day makes no difference and you are obviously not booking a cruise based on the cost.

 

However at the other end of P&O's pricing scale, they are able to shave 8% off the headline price by not mentioning the discretionary service charge. That sells more cruises and makes more money.

 

If staff are being exploited, the blame for this sits firmly on the shoulders of P&O's directors.

They do mention the service charge though. It is very clearly on their website.

During your time on board, you'll be looked after by lots of people - waiters, buffet staff and cabin stewards, who'll go out of their way to make each moment of your holiday special.

But, we know that rewarding good service every time it happens just isn't convenient. So, our Service Reward Programme is a simple, one-off way for you to say ‘thank you’ for all the service you receive. A discretionary daily amount of £6.00 is added to your on-board account for each guest aged 12 and over.

The Service Reward appears on your folio as a ‘service charge’ and is confirmed in your holiday information booklet, accessed through your Cruise Personaliser. Of course, if you want to personally reward a crew member in addition to this, feel free to do so.

If you are paying £5k then obviously £6 a day makes no difference and you are obviously not booking a cruise based on the cost.

 

However at the other end of P&O's pricing scale, they are able to shave 8% off the headline price by not mentioning the discretionary service charge. That sells more cruises and makes more money.

 

If staff are being exploited, the blame for this sits firmly on the shoulders of P&O's directors.

Well, £5k is hardly at the expensive end of a cruise. The cruise cost us £1400 each, for saver fare outside cabins. Add in Internet, excursions, specialty restaurants, drinks etc and it rises to around £5k all in.

Have a look at two-week cruises during the Summer on their website and you'll see that's hardly at the higher end of their cruise prices.

People in balconies and suites are paying way more. People who booked a few weeks later than us are also paying way more. People who drink alcohol are paying way more. We sit firmly in the lower end of the scale. However as Selbourne said we are like millionaires in comparison to many of the staff. Some on board are like billionaires compared to the staff.

I agree that the p&o directors are culpable, but I can't un-know what I know about staff wages now I know it. I can hardly object to having to pay £6 a day to top up the wages of those who earn less in a month than we paid to visit Mt Etna and Taormina for five hours.

I'm also aware it's not just p&o but is common on cruise lines. In other industries too. I'm not singling p&o out per se. I'm just thinking of the humanity of it and explaining my perspective on why I leave the £6 a day service charge in place.

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Well, £5k is hardly at the expensive end of a cruise. The cruise cost us £1400 each, for saver fare outside cabins. Add in Internet, excursions, specialty restaurants, drinks etc and it rises to around £5k all in.

 

Have a look at two-week cruises during the Summer on their website and you'll see that's hardly at the higher end of their cruise prices.

 

People in balconies and suites are paying way more. People who booked a few weeks later than us are also paying way more. People who drink alcohol are paying way more. We sit firmly in the lower end of the scale. However as Selbourne said we are like millionaires in comparison to many of the staff. Some on board are like billionaires compared to the staff.

 

I agree that the p&o directors are culpable, but I can't un-know what I know about staff wages now I know it. I can hardly object to having to pay £6 a day to top up the wages of those who earn less in a month than we paid to visit Mt Etna and Taormina for five hours.

 

 

 

 

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Another great post.

We always auto tip on P&O and pre pay on RCI and give extra too and the crew are always grateful as are we for the excellent service we always get.

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Even if I leave the tips on I like to give something extra to the cabin steward.. Last trip I tipped the steward two days before disembarkation and the service suddenly deteriorated. Perhaps he felt £40 wasn't enough! Next time I won't bother. I might even leave the tips off altogether and tip the cabin steward and others who have given good service individually but I won't make the mistake of tipping before the last night of the holiday.

The thing about these threads is that in many ways everyone is right.

Whilst I agree with lots of the posts from all perspectives there are things that fundamentally bother me about the current system.

The main gripe I have is that the pool of money is used in a performance related pay system involving averaging. So for example if I have excellent service from my steward and reflect that in my questionnaire score, I would expect him/her to receive 100% of their portion of my tip, but that's not how it works. Instead it is based on an average of their cabins, so if everyone else rated the Steward lower he would only receive a proportion of what I paid - the difference being used to subsidise the pool. Similarly if I received a terrible service and reflected this in the rating the Steward would receive less money - yet I've still paid the same for the poor service and again the balance is subsidising the tip pool.

With so many passengers taking off tips, why do you think there aren't demonstrations on the dockside anymore (aside from the fact that P&O discontinue contracts and send staff home if they are found to be even discussing tips let alone demonstrating) - the answer is that the performance related pay is a benefit promise, so depending on questionnaire ratings the crew are guaranteed a percentage - some of this comes from tips and P&O make up the difference.

Some passengers never pay a thing, some passengers tow the line but the outcome for the crew is the same. The more people opt out the more the charge gets increased as P&O try to minimise their contribution.

What's fair in all of that?

When you look at the P&O wording it can be interpreted in a number of ways - when members of this board have been persistent and questioned P&O it has revealed things that don't sit very comfortably.

Whether you choose to pay via the system or pay direct it's your prerogative. It's not our job to make sure every single crew member is properly paid, nor is it fair some passengers subsidise others. Each to their own, do what you think is right, P&O should sort it out - me, well I make it work for me, I do differently each cruise as I see fit.

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You can't compare wages earnt to a UK salary. The salary they earn in a ship is far far more than they'd earn back home.

One needs to keep this is perspective. Stop comparing their earnings to our earnings on a £ to £ basis. These guys are earning a lot compared to what they could.

I don't deny they are away from families for many months, but they choose to do this, as they have full board and earn more.

I work with many Indian colleagues, and have a lot of respect for most of them. Why do you think so many companies are outsourcing work? :(

Re tips. I wish they'd be included in the cruise cost if it's going to just be one a service charge. Be far better all round. Save all these arguments for one! I've previously kept on my auto tips. But after my last cruise I'm not sure I will on the next. Our MDR waiter was very poor.

Even if I leave the tips on I like to give something extra to the cabin steward.. Last trip I tipped the steward two days before disembarkation and the service suddenly deteriorated.

Genuinely puzzled by this.

What service do you get from a cabin steward that deserves additional tipping, but more importantly can deteriorate?

They make the bed, give a quick clean around, stick in fresh towels, and are gone.

Genuinely puzzled by this.

 

What service do you get from a cabin steward that deserves additional tipping, but more importantly can deteriorate?

 

They make the bed, give a quick clean around, stick in fresh towels, and are gone.

Totally agree. Strange post, so uncouth, particularly to mention the amount proffered.

Personally I don't think what they would earn at home is all that relevant - they aren't at home.

Yes the salary is more than they'd get if they stayed in, say, India but they aren't in India. They are on an American/British ship serving mostly British people *mostly* sailing European and American waters.

Also the notion that they are freely choosing to work for p&o while partially true isn't really a completely honest account. Their circumstances are what are driving them to "choose" to work for them. It's a bit like saying that care workers over here on minimum wage on zero hours contracts are "choosing" to do so. It's a Hobson's choice isn't it, really.

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With so many passengers taking off tips, why do you think there aren't demonstrations on the dockside anymore (aside from the fact that P&O discontinue contracts and send staff home if they are found to be even discussing tips let alone demonstrating) .

 

 

 

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Wow! I didn't know that used to happen. So what was it exactly? Cruise ship staff protesting low wages at the dockside?

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Let's not work on the assumption that all of the crew are suffering a terrible job. I'm sure at times they get sick of the passengers, the constant smiles, being away from home, the shifts and hard work,but there are flip sides. For some it's a way of earning a decent income with good camaraderie and an opportunity to see the world. I know this doesn't apply to everyone but some of the crew like their job.

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55p an hour. That's what we are quibbling over. Whether people are happy to bump up the wages from 75p an hour to £1.30 an hour or not.

I think your maths is a bit out.

The £6 pppd charge has to be split a number of ways, but for example if the cabin steward gets 1/3 (no idea if correct) that works out at roughly 20p per hour per person. So how many cabins (no idea), 15? So that is now £6.75 per hour, working out to about £25k a year - tax free(?) so equivalent to about £35k if taxed, and with board and lodging thrown in.

A bit different to your numbers.