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Able bodied in disabled cabins


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Based on the law sited in Post # 2 it's unlikely that any cruise ship departing from a USA port will intentional drop the certification/verification process for booking accessible cabins. Unfamiliar with any laws in other countries pertaining to this matter.

 

Yes, the United States is taking this abuse very seriously; rightly so, and draughted specific legislation. In other parts of the world crusing is not such a major industry and there they might well be a bit more lax and any opportunity to not bother may well creep in with some cruise lines in those parts of the world. Lines could adopt the policy wherever they are sailing and stick rigidly to it. In this respect; it is my opinion that everybody should try as much as they can to encourage and support any effort from any cruise line in upholding these principals worldwide even passengers reporting cruise lines that did not insist on seeing relevant documentation to make sure that standards are upheld.

 

Regards John

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  • 1 month later...
Hi John,

 

Where would you want it to stop, do I have to provide a doctors letter every time I require reasonable adjustment when trying to live as normal life as I can.

 

So that you understand it is discriminatory for any provider of a service to require someone who is disabled to do something that an able bodied person doesn't - namely pay for a doctors letter, an able bodied person doesn't have to provide a letter to say they are "fit to cruise"

 

As I said in my original post

"Hi,

 

I have a certain amount of sympathy for the cruise lines as they are sometimes between a rock and a hard place.

 

I am sailing from San Francisco in October and have booked an accessible cabin which I need, I booked this in the UK (which as most will know that there are similar disability laws in the UK but with differences). I received a letter from the cruise line asking for a letter from my doctor to prove that I needed the accessible cabin. I wrote back to them expressing how impressed I was with them in the fact that they were trying to ensure that the correct people were able to use these cabins but as my doctor would charge for this letter I felt that it was discriminatory for me to pay to prove that I am disabled, I also advised them that I would willingly provide them with a letter from my doctor but at their expense.

 

This was several months ago but I haven't heard anything from them.

 

Pete"

 

It is a shame that you failed to quote the full post as I have highlighted relevant points that show your post up a borderline offensive.

 

Pete

ok pete!!! so instead of paying the doctors for the note, and the cruise line asking , lets say someone who wants a "larger room " does so with no dr. note... now you cant even go!!! wasn't it worth the dr. note? ?????

ALSO>>>>>

if you are truly disabled,(not saying your not)chances are more then likely you should see your doctor before traveling . so WHILE there, request the note in hand from the dr.... it wont cost you a thing!! plus your disability most likely causes extra dr. visits ,and/or visits with a specialist.. who know you, and therefor will give you the note!

a great idea comes form your post... they can make it so that the note must be faxed /sent to them directly from your doctor.

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if you are truly disabled,(not saying your not)chances are more then likely you should see your doctor before traveling . so WHILE there, request the note in hand from the dr.... it wont cost you a thing!!

 

Can't speak for the Original Poster (OP) but I can for my mother. Anytime she wants a note for anything or paperwork completed, there is a $25 charge.

 

We usually take 2-3 cruises a year, plus stay at between 10-15 hotels a year - what if all of them started to request a doctor's letter for their files?

 

Why can't they just have a form that is mandatory for people to fill out saying:

 

a) I have a disability and require the accessible stateroom;

b) I require the following accommodations / am bringing the following supports.

 

The special needs form should be filled out but let me tell you - I recently booked over the phone with Celebrity and booked an accessible cabin (at a guarantee rate - that was a first and I have to thank this board for knowing we could do that). Despite obviously consulting with special needs, the agent never told me to complete the online form for special needs, nor have I been contacted by special needs to fill out the form.

 

If everyone who booked an accessible stateroom was told, fill out the form, you have two weeks or you're automatically moved to a regular stateroom, you'd probably have less people booking accessible staterooms who don't need them.

 

People get this idea (from the cruise websites, from TAs, from wherever) that if they book an accessible stateroom and it's needed by someone with a disability, they'll be moved from that stateroom into a "better" stateroom.

 

If people had to sign the attestation, fewer would book the cabins they don't need because most people would feel guilty about signing a paper that says, "I am disabled." when they are not. And frankly, those who wouldn't feel guilty, would also probably have no issue going to their doctor and getting a note saying they needed an accessible cabin anyways (and I'm sure many doctors would sign the form).

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Can't speak for the Original Poster (OP) but I can for my mother. Anytime she wants a note for anything or paperwork completed, there is a $25 charge.

 

We usually take 2-3 cruises a year, plus stay at between 10-15 hotels a year - what if all of them started to request a doctor's letter for their files?

 

well if your mom is not known/liked enough by the doctor for him to hand it to her at the visit...(do not ask the secretary, but the actual doctor WHILE seeing him/her)..then she would get the paper ONCE, and if the disability is permanent,it will say so,and she would keep it safe, and reuse it.

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And frankly, those who wouldn't feel guilty, would also probably have no issue going to their doctor and getting a note saying they needed an accessible cabin anyways (and I'm sure many doctors would sign the form).

true.. but the chances go down drastically when not only do they have to be slightly dishonest, but also ask a doctor to be dishonest for them, and have a doctor be dishonest enough to write it ...

NOT SAYING IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN.. but many who will say yes disabled to get the room will not want to even admit to their doctor they want to do so... much less have the dr. sign on that.

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true.. but the chances go down drastically when not only do they have to be slightly dishonest, but also ask a doctor to be dishonest for them, and have a doctor be dishonest enough to write it ...

NOT SAYING IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN.. but many who will say yes disabled to get the room will not want to even admit to their doctor they want to do so... much less have the dr. sign on that.

 

Not too mention that most States have laws that specifying that if a Doctor falsely signs a document that the information contained in that document cannot be backed up with the appropriated medical records and or legal records than that Doctor can be fined as well as potentially lose their medical license. No credible Doctor will take the chance of losing their license.

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well if your mom is not known/liked enough by the doctor for him to hand it to her at the visit...(do not ask the secretary, but the actual doctor WHILE seeing him/her)..then she would get the paper ONCE, and if the disability is permanent,it will say so,and she would keep it safe, and reuse it.

 

It has nothing to do with that. Our OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) does not cover medical documentation AT ALL. My mother gets a home visit due to the fact that her doctor's office is not wheelchair accessible so he comes to the house every 3 months for a check up.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Some physicians require payment for completing letters or documentation regardless of how often you see them. For instance, school forms required to play sports...some physicians charge $25 to fill those out (and that's a standard form, not a customized letter). I'm in the U. S. Where everything is monetized, though....

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The cruise lines could formulate a range of documents which are acceptable as evidence that the passenger has a disability which people could choose from and turn up with.

 

This could include a doctor's letter (which you pay for once and re-use) and Disabled Persons "Blue Badge" parking permit etc. There must be a number of official documents which would be acceptable.

 

The alternative to just going on the basis that people just have to say "I'm disabled" is that unscrupulous people will acquire unfairly a big cabin at a bargain price.

 

Regards John

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The cruise lines could formulate a range of documents which are acceptable as evidence that the passenger has a disability which people could choose from and turn up with.

 

This could include a doctor's letter (which you pay for once and re-use) and Disabled Persons "Blue Badge" parking permit etc. There must be a number of official documents which would be acceptable.

 

The alternative to just going on the basis that people just have to say "I'm disabled" is that unscrupulous people will acquire unfairly a big cabin at a bargain price.

 

Regards John

 

In the State of Illinois the HC Parking Placard is NOT considered to be an expectable document to be submitted to any agency and or company as legal proof of ones disability. Rather it only proves that the individual has met the State's requirement to have such a placard. It is NOT proof that a person has a disability the requires the features of an accessible cabin as is stated in the USA Federal Law that went into effect 1/1/2012

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In the State of Illinois the HC Parking Placard is NOT considered to be an expectable document to be submitted to any agency and or company as legal proof of ones disability. Rather it only proves that the individual has met the State's requirement to have such a placard. It is NOT proof that a person has a disability the requires the features of an accessible cabin as is stated in the USA Federal Law that went into effect 1/1/2012

 

On this basis I should suggest somebody from the cruise lines looks at the Federal Law that went into effect 1/1/2012 and see if an appropriate list of documents may be formulated to make it easier for passengers and cruise lines to comply because at the moment it seems anyone can book and travel in these cabins so long as they just say they are disabled. In suggesting the Blue Badge parking permits I was simply thinking it is better than nothing, cheaper as people already have them and generally understood throughout Europe.

 

Regards John

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On this basis I should suggest somebody from the cruise lines looks at the Federal Law that went into effect 1/1/2012 and see if an appropriate list of documents may be formulated to make it easier for passengers and cruise lines to comply because at the moment it seems anyone can book and travel in these cabins so long as they just say they are disabled. In suggesting the Blue Badge parking permits I was simply thinking it is better than nothing, cheaper as people already have them and generally understood throughout Europe.

 

Regards John

 

The law that went into effect 1/1/2012 does not specifically list the documents required to prove one's disability rather it states that the individual needing the accessible cabin has to a have a disability or mobility disability requiring the features provided in an accessible cabin and the cruise line has the right to ask for verification.

 

Following is an example of why a Blue HC Placard does not serve as proof that an individual requires the features provided in an accessible cabin :

  • My sister and I both meet the State of Illinois requirements for eligibility of a Blue HC parking placard.
  • Though my sister has a blue HC parking placard her reason for eligibility does not require her to have to book accessible cabins as she does not require the features of such cabin as is required under the 1/1/202 Federal Law.
  • I on the other hand have a mobility disability that requires the need for extra space to accommodate a walker, mobility scooter. Additionally requiring a zero threshold entry into the bathroom and shower as well as the need for grab bars and a raised toilet.

 

As a result of the United States Supreme Court Rules on Spector et. al. VS Norwegian Cruise Lines. a Federal Law under the Department of Transportation ( commonly referred to as DOT) became effective on January 1, 2012 for cruise ships departing from a USA port that requires that the cruise lines have to verify that the person occupying the cabin has a medical or physical need to book the cabin .

 

(g) To prevent fraud in the assignment of accessible cabins (e.g., attempts by individuals who do not have disabilities to reserve accessible cabins because they have greater space, you—

(1) Must inquire of persons seeking to reserve such cabins whether the individual (or an individual for whom the cabin is being reserved) has a mobility disability or a disability that requires the use of the accessible features that are provided in the cabin.

(2) May require a written attestation from the individual that accessible cabin is for a person who has a mobility disability or a disability that requires the use of the accessible features that are provided in the cabin.

 

Under this law the only time it's acceptable for an able body person to book an HC cabin is after the final payment period has past and any unsold HC cabins are than open to the general public for booking.

Edited by xxoocruiser
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The law that went into effect 1/1/2012 does not specifically list the documents required to prove one's disability rather it states that the individual needing the accessible cabin has to a have a disability or mobility disability requiring the features provided in an accessible cabin and the cruise line has the right to ask for verification.

 

Following is an example of why a Blue HC Placard does not serve as proof that an individual requires the features provided in an accessible cabin :

  • My sister and I both meet the State of Illinois requirements for eligibility of a Blue HC parking placard.
  • Though my sister has a blue HC parking placard her reason for eligibility does not require her to have to book accessible cabins as she does not require the features of such cabin as is required under the 1/1/202 Federal Law.
  • I on the other hand have a mobility disability that requires the need for extra space to accommodate a walker, mobility scooter. Additionally requiring a zero threshold entry into the bathroom and shower as well as the need for grab bars and a raised toilet.

 

As a result of the United States Supreme Court Rules on Spector et. al. VS Norwegian Cruise Lines. a Federal Law under the Department of Transportation ( commonly referred to as DOT) became effective on January 1, 2012 for cruise ships departing from a USA port that requires that the cruise lines have to verify that the person occupying the cabin has a medical or physical need to book the cabin .

 

In establishing that a passenger may appropriately have an adapted cabin the cruise line seems to have to satisfy themselves that the passenger has a disability and that the type of disability present makes the adaptions in the cabin necessary.

 

I am thinking that stage one is easiest to establish with documentation and whilst you and your good sister would be able to produce your Illinois Blue HC Placards and others similar documents as appropriate, many bogus people would not get past this stage at an attempted booking. This would cut them out at the early booking stage.

 

Stage two, providing evidence that your disability necessitates the use of an adapted cabin is more difficult. A doctor's letter specifically outlining this point would be useful as would a form from the cruise line or industry outlining all the points or adaptions to make it easier and cheaper for doctors to complete. The form could be reused and cruise lines can also keep records for future cruises. From what you said about your sister she would not be able to get through this stage. I am wondering how else this problem could be addressed. The number of adapted cabins on any cruise ship is very small and they should only be taken by people who genuinely need them.

 

Regards John

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In establishing that a passenger may appropriately have an adapted cabin the cruise line seems to have to satisfy themselves that the passenger has a disability and that the type of disability present makes the adaptions in the cabin necessary.

 

I am thinking that stage one is easiest to establish with documentation and whilst you and your good sister would be able to produce your Illinois Blue HC Placards and others similar documents as appropriate, many bogus people would not get past this stage at an attempted booking. This would cut them out at the early booking stage.

 

One thing you haven't factored in to your plan is the high rate of counterfeit blue HC placards in circulation. Not every state has checks and balances to help minimize the circulation of HC placards nor are placards standardized in the USA. Additionally high grade color printers have made it even easier to produce counterfeit placards.

 

Some states don't even code them to have the gender and the birth year of the person make on the placard. The State of Illinois is constantly challenged with making HC placard harder to counterfeit. It has even imposed fines for Doctors that fraudulently approve the application for someone that does not meet the state's criteria but instead just wants it so their car doesn't get scratched. Additionally Illinois placards are coded with gender and the birth year of the person it's assigned as well as having a hieroglyphic symbol. Even with all these check and balances 20% of the placards being used in Illinois are counterfeit or were fraudulently obtained.

 

Bottom line - An HC placard is NOT considered as legal proof of a person having a disability that requires the features of an accessible cruise cabin. So if the cruise lines use that a criteria someone will just produce their parents and book an accessible cabin any way resulting in the continuing problem of able bodied persons booking an accessible cabin just for the added space.

 

.

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One thing you haven't factored in to your plan is the high rate of counterfeit blue HC placards in circulation. Not every state has checks and balances to help minimize the circulation of HC placards nor are placards standardized in the USA. Additionally high grade color printers have made it even easier to produce counterfeit placards.

 

Some states don't even code them to have the gender and the birth year of the person make on the placard. The State of Illinois is constantly challenged with making HC placard harder to counterfeit. It has even imposed fines for Doctors that fraudulently approve the application for someone that does not meet the state's criteria but instead just wants it so their car doesn't get scratched. Additionally Illinois placards are coded with gender and the birth year of the person it's assigned as well as having a hieroglyphic symbol. Even with all these check and balances 20% of the placards being used in Illinois are counterfeit or were fraudulently obtained.

 

 

.

 

This is just get beyond stage one. There will be unscrupulous dealers in false parking permits and fraudulent doctors. Many places are being hit by fraudsters looking to park conveniently close to the city centre for less money. However the fact is that this larger cabin on the cheap problem exists and needs to be stopped.

 

What surprises me is that not many people on this thread are offering a positive way of how to stop these people. Many just complain which is understandable but no suggestions on how the cruise lines can sort out these people.

 

Regards John

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I'm hoping someone can answer a question I have.

 

My dad is 84 and uses a scooter and a wheelchair. He can walk a very short distance and has trouble stepping up in the bathroom in the cabins. The last two cruises, he has been booking HC's as I'm afraid of him falling.

 

He is currently waitlisted on the Princess Mexico Anniversary cruise 12/3 which is sold out.

 

I'm wondering what the process is to verify all persons currently booked are in fact handicapped or if not, at what point does Princess verify this info? Possibly at final payment?

 

Thank you!

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I cruised princess in jan....no verification as well as 2 on ncl and 1 on x.....have 1 booked on rccl and 1 on x....nothing asked for yet....does not seem to be a process that will prevent the able-bodied to book at this point...

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I am booked on Carnival and had to fill out a form with what I was needing in the form of accommodations. It also asked about what I was bringing in the way of a wheelchair, scooter, walker etc. They also wanted the measurements of the device. I was sent the form shortly after booking and faxed it back to them. You might want to check with your cruiselines special needs department to find out what is needed.

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I'm hoping someone can answer a question I have.

 

My dad is 84 and uses a scooter and a wheelchair. He can walk a very short distance and has trouble stepping up in the bathroom in the cabins. The last two cruises, he has been booking HC's as I'm afraid of him falling.

 

He is currently waitlisted on the Princess Mexico Anniversary cruise 12/3 which is sold out.

 

I'm wondering what the process is to verify all persons currently booked are in fact handicapped or if not, at what point does Princess verify this info? Possibly at final payment?

 

Thank you!

 

Generally speaking people requiring HC Accessible Cabins book at least a year in advance if not longer. I for one generally book 1 1/2 years in advance to be assured of an accessible cabin.

 

Though the USA Federal Law that went into effect 1/1/2015 which applies to cruise ships embarking from a USA port has minimized the abuse of able body people from booking HC Accessible Cabins there's still an issue with cruise lines verifying a persons need due to Federal Privacy Laws. At this point the only option is to be waited listed and at that there is no assurance that an accessible cabin will become available. Suggest you also do a mock booking daily to see if one becomes available .

 

Additionally the Pacific Princess only has 5accessible cabins so the chances are slim that on will become available. Keep checking!

Edited by xxoocruiser
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Thank you for the answers!

 

I hope princess does verify the people in these cabins as I'm sure there are others on the waitlist in front of my dad as well that would like to go but can't if they don't have a handicapped cabin.

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Thank you for the answers!

 

I hope princess does verify the people in these cabins as I'm sure there are others on the waitlist in front of my dad as well that would like to go but can't if they don't have a handicapped cabin.

 

Though the USA Federal Law that went into effect on 1/1/2012 does state that the cruise line may require a written attestation from the individual that and accessible cabin is for a person who has a mobility disability or a disability that requires the use of the accessible features that are provided in the cabin, it needs to be noted that the individual is not required to show any medical proof as to the need as by doing so it would constitute a direct violation of one's privacy rights. Rather the individual only has to state in writing that they have a disability and or mobility disability that requires the features of an accessible cabin and Princess has to accept as verification.

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I have found that the cruise lines I use only ask for verification once and then I am in their system as requiring a HC cabin. Hope this helps the concerns of meatloafan for his mom

 

Just booked an accessible cabin on Carnival and we were sent forms to fill out and return. As a matter of fact they gave my TA a hard time when we were booking. It was the weekend and they said the special needs department was closed and to call back on Monday (I think not). Anyway my TA went to bat for us and we have an accessible on a b2b. It is a shame that people book these cabins that don't need them.

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Though the USA Federal Law that went into effect on 1/1/2012 does state that the cruise line may require a written attestation from the individual that and accessible cabin is for a person who has a mobility disability or a disability that requires the use of the accessible features that are provided in the cabin, it needs to be noted that the individual is not required to show any medical proof as to the need as by doing so it would constitute a direct violation of one's privacy rights. Rather the individual only has to state in writing that they have a disability and or mobility disability that requires the features of an accessible cabin and Princess has to accept as verification.

 

Is it the case therefore that anybody attempting to book a disabled access cabin can simply write a letter themselves saying that they are disabled and need the cabin because of this?

 

Is it true that the cruise line can demand medical evidence of this but not if they are travelling to/from the US or they are not US citizens?

 

How do US citizens acquire the disabled parking permit, can they just say they are disabled and therefore need such a permit?

 

Regards John

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