Big ships biggest failure, or, ship within a ship: haven: NCL's worst decision.

This is of course an editorial/ opinion, but I'm looking for a discussion on the matter. I've only sailed NCL, and at that only 2 ships, the Gem, a 2000 passenger ship, and the Breakaway, a 4000 passenger ship. My first cruise was on the Gem and we loved it. We followed it up with a cruise on the Breakaway, and were very disappointed. Our question to ourselves was: was the Gem really superior, or was it just that it was our first cruise and the novelty of it was all that it was to make us think the Gem was superior? So we went back on the Gem, and as it would be, have been on it 6 times since. The Gem is/was everything we were enamored with the first time. We are quite sure of it.

So that brought me to trying to figure out why, what should of been basically the same experience, was so drastically different. Why was the Breakaway such a disappointment? In a nutshell, the ship is nowhere big enough to accommodate 4000 guests in terms of common space and secondly, with almost 1/3 of the common space shut off from non-haven passengers or used up by a larger casino, The Breakaway's usable space was actually smaller than the Gem

Where the Breakaway absolutely needed to be bigger but was actually smaller:

1) sunning areas: while the deck area is 30% bigger on the Breakaway, with DOUBLE the number of people you can't get away with 30% increase. In actuality, the haven had private sun decks taking up almost 30% of the sunning area so in fact, the Breakaway basically does nothing other than double the number of people trying to share an already crowded area. Now we are not casino people, and quite frankly with the smoking allowed in the casino, we actively avoid it. On the Gem, not an issue the casino was on a lower deck out of the way. The Breakaway puts the Casino in the middle of everything, very difficult to circumnavigate, and worst of all, the smoke permeates a good deal of the common areas outside of the casino. Us like others, where now crammed in areas to avoid the cigarette smoke, the grand 3 story staircase? didn't want to go near it for all the cigarette smoke.

2) elevators: with double the number of people, you would need double the number of elevators right? actually you need even more than that. The Gem has 3 less floors of stairs to walk to get from the top to the bottom. on floor 8 where we stay, its 1 floor down to the main entertainment deck/dining, or 4 up to the sunning areas. We never took an elevator down from our room we just walked. this was not the case in the Breakaway where it was 4 up and 4 down, so we increased the demand of elevator use. Now you have double the number of people, and increased their dependency on elevators, how do you reduce the number of elevator banks from 3 to 2??? You do it by making people queue at the elevators.

3) the main theater for shows: Gem, theater has 1000 seats for 2000 passengers. Breakaway: theater has 800 seats for 4000 passengers. This one is the most obvious.

What really spurred on this post/rant is I saw today the announcement for the newest and last of the NCL's 4000 passenger ships, the Encore and noticed something very interesting. It was very telling, Remember my big complaint about common space not being enough on the 4000 passenger ship? Well I couldn't help notice that the plans for Encore have changed: Here is the original plan for the 15th floor of the Encore:

and the new one just released by NCL:

They clearly recognized the problem with the shortage of common space on the mega-ships. This also fits into my other big complaint about the Breakaway as there was no Spinnaker lounge on the ship. This change is in the 15th floor reverses that problem as well adding a 180 degree view forward lounge, my favorite on the Gem, missing on the Breakaway, and in further irony, was the removed from the Dawn to put in haven suites on the Dawn back when NCL came up with this ship within a ship fiasco.

I've also talked with the planners of NCL. After this mega-ship, the new ones are being scaled back to 3000 passenger ships if you look at what the 2020 and on ships that are being planned are.

I was staying in the Haven and thinking "I don't get why this exists on this ship. They don't have space for it".

Their sun/pool decks are so grossly undersized for the passenger volume and they close off the entire front 1/3 of the ship for the Haven.

IMO I agree with most of what you are saying. We've been on many NCL ships and for megas, only the BA. We had a good time but not as good as other ships and it just had a negative vibe to it. We were in the Haven too and you could escape most of the crowds but even there the service was mediocre at best.

You did forget the pool area though unless I skimmed past it. Oh, I'm not sure where you get the 1/3 of public space is not available to non-Haven folks. Maybe that is accurate but it seems too high if you include restaurants, bar, pools, etc.

The new megas at NCL do have lots of things to do which is nice, but not always needed. I know some people really like the megas. We are trying the Escape so we'll see how that goes. We've sailed DCL and MSC megas ships and the whole crowded feeling was never there.

The first deck 15 picture is Escape, not Encore/Bliss.

Since BA Plus 2, 3, and 4 are different from 1 (Escape) and all 4 are different from BA/GA, it is difficult to directly compare/contrast.

Simple solution.....book a suite.

@BNBR: I had a similar discussion about WDW about this. They were complaining about the crowds and the price (which of course makes no sense you can't lower the price AND make it less crowded, but anyways,) The conversation went on about how you could use FASTPASS to avoid the lines, and my argument was It's not so much the lines that I find so disapointing, its just the size of the crowd makes it bad. Forget discount days, I'd prefer double price days with no absolutely no perks. I simply want the park to be less crowded.

In the case of the Haven, It doesn't really thrill me that my (1/3rd) section of the ship is not crowded, I still want to play on the whole ship, and having it a mass of people is problematic. If I was going to pay those prices, I'd go on the Queen Mary or the real luxury ships where the entire ship is luxury.

@dexdd: the 1/3 figure is the topside area, its based on the footprint of the topdeck, vs the footprint of the "haven only" area. the 1/3 on the inside areas of the main entrance, and shops, for the internal areas, it does look like they doubled the "common area" but that was done mostly by tripling the size of the casino. Not anything I consider useful, but as you say, they didn't short change anyone with that. Except of course, all the venues on decks 6,7,8 were always packed and many of them you were turned away as a result of the crowds. For some reason, on the Gem, You never got turned away from any venue. there is always a seat available.

in further irony, was the removed from the Dawn to put in haven suites on the Dawn back when NCL came up with this ship within a ship fiasco.

 

I agree with some of the things you wrote but this is incorrect. There are no Haven suites on the Dawn because the Dawn has no Haven!

The Haven is defenitely not a fiasco. Maybe the areas outside the Haven are too small on some ships but thay doesn't mean the the Haven is a fiasco. The Haven is great, especially on the biggest ships.

The first deck 15 picture is Escape, not Encore/Bliss.

 

Since BA Plus 2, 3, and 4 are different from 1 (Escape) and all 4 are different from BA/GA, it is difficult to directly compare/contrast.

 

 

 

 

Simple solution.....book a suite.

well I got that deck 15 picture from a website for the encore, could be wrong, but it really makes no difference, the point still stands they are removing rooms and adding another huge public area.

Booking a suite does nothing for making the common areas less crowded, or keep me from being shut out of restaurants and shows.

From personal experience, I would never cruise a NCL Mega ship without being in the Haven!

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I've also talked with the planners of NCL. After this mega-ship, the new ones are being scaled back to 3000 passenger ships if you look at what the 2020 and on ships that are being planned are.

NCL doesn't have anything that I can find planned for 2020, but the other major lines do and out of 8 ships planned, five are between 4,100 to 5,200 passengers.

I agree with some of the things you wrote but this is incorrect. There are no Haven suites on the Dawn because the Dawn has no Haven!

 

The Haven is defenitely not a fiasco. Maybe the areas outside the Haven are too small on some ships but thay doesn't mean the the Haven is a fiasco. The Haven is great, especially on the biggest ships.

A financial fiaso as in the steerage passengers (aka non-haven) with experience won't go back on the ship. I can sail on the Breakaway from NY, or for that matter any of the mega-ships for 30% less than I can the Gem but I won't, and judging by the last minute deals, the Gem is always sold out while the Breakaway has empty rooms.

You are correct the dawn doesn't have a haven but the did remove its spinnaker lounge to make way for ultra-suites. This was the pre-cursor to the Haven concept: Making a 2-class ship.

Booking a suite does nothing for making the common areas less crowded, or keep me from being shut out of restaurants and shows.

It's easier to get a table in the restaurants if you have a suite, no guarantee but the suite might help.

From personal experience, I would never cruise a NCL Mega ship without being in the Haven!

 

 

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I would probably agree with that. However once I get to the price level of the Haven, there is no way I'd be on ship that is modeled after a shopping mall. At that price, I'm on the Queen Mary, barefoot cruise, or some luxury line, not NCL/RCCL/... other mass produced cruise lines. At that price I doubt I'd be even on a 2000 passenger ship.

So, are you saying that the Encore at 4,200 and coming out in 2019 will be the last of their mega ships?

 

NCL doesn't have anything that I can find planned for 2020, but the other major lines do and out of 8 ships planned, five are between 4,100 to 5,200 passengers.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2017/02/16/norwegian-cruise-line-ship-order/97985188/

Encore was also scaled back to 4000 from 4200 by freeing up deck 15 as I showed in the before and after pics.

well I got that deck 15 picture from a website for the encore, could be wrong, but it really makes no difference, the point still stands they are removing rooms and adding another huge public area.

It's a different layout. On 1 ship, the bridge is on deck 15 and on the other(s), the bridge is on deck 14. They didn't just eliminate staterooms to make more public space. Compared to Escape, the bridge, buffet, and the Spa are in different locations. There is more public space in some areas and less in others.

Booking a suite does nothing for making the common areas less crowded, or keep me from being shut out of restaurants and shows.

Your concierge can work wonders for you. Getting into a restaurant or show is much easier when in a suite.

You are correct the dawn doesn't have a haven but the did remove its spinnaker lounge to make way for ultra-suites. This was the pre-cursor to the Haven concept: Making a 2-class ship.

I agree with you that it was bad that they removed the Spinnaker lounge from the forward part of the Dawn, we really loved that on our Dawncruise, but I can't see what that has to do with the Haven on the never ships.

Your concierge can work wonders for you. Getting into a restaurant or show is much easier when in a suite.

Ahh that does make sense. However by the time I'm comfortable enough to pay for a suite, I'm not gonna be on a ship where it is necessary to have wonders worked. its gonna be SOP.

Booking a suite does nothing for making the common areas less crowded, or keep me from being shut out of restaurants and shows.

Suite people have a Concierge to help with booking tables and a reserved area in the theatre.

My conclusion is that some people are just not megaship people - I am one of them.

I much prefer the Jewel class to the Breakaway class.

To me, the Haven is not the problem with wasted space - it’s the rock wall and the water slides and the go kart tracks and all the fun stuff the kids want. I’m not a kid anymore. I’m not going to use any of that stuff, but if you left it out and put in another bar, I might spend some time there.

My wife loves the Epic (she’s in the minority, I think.) I enjoy the Epic because I know where everything is - we’ve done four Transatlantics on her.

We’ve sailed the Breakaway (Haven) and the Getaway (twice) and I’m always left just a bit underwhelmed. I can’t explain why, it’s just what happens. I prefer the openness of 6-7-8 Ocean Place to the sealed environment of the Epic, but they’re not ships, they’re floating resorts. I prefer ships.

If I could only sail one Norwegian ship, I would choose the Jade. I love the layout. Ironically, we had a Haven suite on the Jade at Christmas, and never went to the actual Haven. We had the Owners Suite, which has a forward balcony, so we spent most of our spare time there.

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I agree with you that it was bad that they removed the Spinnaker lounge from the forward part of the Dawn, we really loved that on our Dawncruise, but I can't see what that has to do with the Haven on the never ships.

I was comparing the Gem with a spinnaker to the Breakaway: a never ship as you call it. I sorely missed the spinnaker that was on the Gem and not on the Breakaway, more to the point, I missed not having a view forward in the Breakaway. For that matter, I distinctly remember being very aware that on the Breakaway there was very little window space to view the ocean at all in the common areas below deck.

A financial fiaso as in the steerage passengers (aka non-haven) with experience won't go back on the ship. I can sail on the Breakaway from NY, or for that matter any of the mega-ships for 30% less than I can the Gem but I won't, and judging by the last minute deals, the Gem is always sold out while the Breakaway has empty rooms.

 

With the brochure rate for the Haven right now we are out but if they decide to stop the bidding system they have now we are hopefully back and book their Haven again. We will then cruise on one of their newer ships with a big Haven.

Suite people have a Concierge to help with booking tables and a reserved area in the theatre.

 

My conclusion is that some people are just not megaship people - I am one of them.

 

I much prefer the Jewel class to the Breakaway class.

 

To me, the Haven is not the problem with wasted space - it’s the rock wall and the water slides and the go kart tracks and all the fun stuff the kids want. I’m not a kid anymore. I’m not going to use any of that stuff, but if you left it out and put in another bar, I might spend some time there.

 

My wife loves the Epic (she’s in the minority, I think.) I enjoy the Epic because I know where everything is - we’ve done four Transatlantics on her.

 

We’ve sailed the Breakaway (Haven) and the Getaway (twice) and I’m always left just a bit underwhelmed. I can’t explain why, it’s just what happens. I prefer the openness of 6-7-8 Ocean Place to the sealed environment of the Epic, but they’re not ships, they’re floating resorts. I prefer ships.

 

If I could only sail one Norwegian ship, I would choose the Jade. I love the layout. Ironically, we had a Haven suite on the Jade at Christmas, and never went to the actual Haven. We had the Owners Suite, which has a forward balcony, so we spent most of our spare time there.

 

 

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Thanks for the great analysis. Everyone tells me the Jade is identical to the Gem. I do agree with you with the kid-themed amusement park rides. I'd much prefer more sunning areas to these one-and-done thrill rides as an adult. Even the minature golf is one and done. I can do that at home anytime I want.

My conclusion is that some people are just not megaship people - I am one of them.

That's really what it all comes down to. There is no such thing as a ship (or cruise-line) for everyone. If the Oasis class had a Haven and was priced like the MSC Yacht Club and went further south in the Caribbean, that would be close (for me). :D

I was comparing the Gem with a spinnaker to the Breakaway: a never ship as you call it. I sorely missed the spinnaker that was on the Gem and not on the Breakaway, more to the point, I missed not having a view forward in the Breakaway. For that matter, I distinctly remember being very aware that on the Breakaway there was very little window space to view the ocean at all in the common areas below deck.

If NCL decide to skip the Haven on their new ships they probably think that it's a fiasco. If not, NCL wants it and their suiteguests wants it = no fiasco.

With the brochure rate for the Haven right now we are out but if they decide to stop the bidding system they have now we are hopefully back and book their Haven again. We will then cruise on one of their newer ships with a big Haven.

My last cruise was porthole obstructed view, including alcohol, specialty restaurants, taxes, mandara spa (for 1) all gratuities (alcohol, restaurants and room) for two: 10 days- $2750. I'll take that 3-5x a year over 1x a year for the haven in a cold second.

My wife loves the Epic (she’s in the minority, I think.) I enjoy the Epic because I know where everything is - we’ve done four Transatlantics on her.

 

I agree with your wife. The Haven lounge on the Epic is great and POSH is also very nice, and included.

I'll take that 3-5x a year over 1x a year for the haven in a cold second.

I don't.