Must cancel first leg of B2B due to Jones Act/Passenger Services Act ... Options?

Is it only for Americans? I'm from Belgium never heard of it, did several b2b's never had to pay a fine.

Linda

Is it only for Americans? I'm from Belgium never heard of it, did several b2b's never had to pay a fine.

 

Linda

The vast majority of B2B's are fine. It's only repositioning cruises that start and end in different US ports that can cause problems.

Why does the PVSA apply here? Isn't this one cruise that debarks in Canada. Then board another cruise, that Debarks in the US. Should be two, one way trips which should not violate the PVSA right? What am I missing here? When reading the act, it seems as if the itinerary is compliant, and the passenger disembarks as scheduled...before embarking, there is no violation as that itinerary is complete. Is RCI agreeing that this cannot be done?

Edit: I was looking at page 14, top of the page of the act published on the CBP website.

The law requires that a cruise (other than US ships) starting & ending in different US ports has to call on a distant foreign port.

 

Canadian ports are foreign ports, but not distant ones. Same holds for all Central & North American ports and most Carribean ports.

 

A round trip cruise just needs any foreign port. One way cruises between a US & foreign port are fine.

 

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Which is why I don't understand how this violates. It is two one way cruises, and a debarkation required between them.

Why does the PVSA apply here? Isn't this one cruise that debarks in Canada. Then board another cruise, that Debarks in the US. Should be two, one way trips which should not violate the PVSA right? What am I missing here? When reading the act, it seems as if the itinerary is compliant, and the passenger disembarks as scheduled...before embarking, there is no violation as that itinerary is complete. Is RCI agreeing that this cannot be done?

 

 

Edit: I was looking at page 14, top of the page of the act published on the CBP website.

As I posted earlier it does not matter how many individual cruises there are. It only matters where the guest first embarks and where they do their final disembark. That is what determines the itinerary and whether it is legal or not.

--And yet, Bimini, which can be seen from the air at the same time as Miami and Ft. Lauderdale, DOES qualify. :o :confused:

Not according to the document published on CBP. It specifically disqualifies Bahamian islands.

As I posted earlier it does not matter how many individual cruises there are. It only matters where the guest first embarks and where they do their final disembark. That is what determines the itinerary and whether it is legal or not.

Ok I will take your word for it.

Which is why I don't understand how this violates. It is two one way cruises, and a debarkation required between them.

The individual cruises are legal but because the passenger is combining them it is treated as one cruise. It is the conveyance of the passenger that is the problem.

Ok I will take your word for it.

This comes up quite often. Every year actually with this repositioning as well as west coast cruises that have violations when people try to combine them after a repositioning.

I am from the UK and was unaware of this law. Looks like quite a few countries / regions have a similar law to prevent foreign flagged vessels trading between ports.

Thank you for posting. One of many things I have learnt but lurking on CC.

How do they determine 'distant' ports? This is all new to me and I am curious

A distant foreign port is defined as any port not in Canada, Mexico, Central America, the Islands of the Caribbean (ABC Islands excluded), the Bahamas and Bermuda.

South America, along with Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao and the rest of the world are distant foreign ports:D.

A distant foreign port is defined as any port not in Canada, Mexico, Central America, the Islands of the Caribbean (ABC Islands excluded), the Bahamas and Bermuda.

 

South America, along with Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao and the rest of the world are distant foreign ports:D.

-Sean

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So if I take a 7 day cruise leaving from Seattle going to only Canadian and American ports and Arriving in Vancouver, I'm violating the PVSA?

 

-Sean

 

 

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No, because you are leaving from a US port and arriving in a foreign port which is fine.

If you left from Seattle, went to Canadain ports and Ended in Alaska then that would be a violation.

too confusing:confused:

too confusing:confused:

But just think how many lawyers and legislators are kept in a paycheck!;)

The other thing that came up on the roll call was that the Quebec to Ft. Lauderdale cruise actually does not leave Quebec until the second day, so it was asked if the cruisers could disembark at the end of the New York to Quebec cruise and then stay overnight in a local hotel -- embarking on Day two of the Quebec to Ft. Lauderdale cruise. They were told "NO". To me logic dictates that such a process would satisfy the legal requirements ... but apparently my logic path is flawed.

The other thing that came up on the roll call was that the Quebec to Ft. Lauderdale cruise actually does not leave Quebec until the second day, so it was asked if the cruisers could disembark at the end of the New York to Quebec cruise and then stay overnight in a local hotel -- embarking on Day two of the Quebec to Ft. Lauderdale cruise. They were told "NO". To me logic dictates that such a process would satisfy the legal requirements ... but apparently my logic path is flawed.

I think what is at the root of the "NO" is the same ship would be transporting you between to US ports without the distant foreign port being satisfied. I have had a couple of electronic conversations with a lawyer who has tried to get something firm as to how long of a break would be needed between voyages before the same ship could be used to transport you between two US ports. As you might guess, there was no firm amount of time given. So with that logic you could leave Bayonne this season, arrive in Quebec and lease a house until next season. When the ship returned the following year and you tried to go from Quebec to FLL, it could be determined you were in violation of the PVSA. I know that is a stretch, but there does not appear to be a set amount of time between voyages.

I would go with Option #3. Like many have said, it puts you in Quebec 3 days prior to your second cruise. You could either opt to stay in Quebec City, or head down to Montreal, or even rent a car and go on a three day nature excursion through the Quebec lakes and forests. Hopefully things play out well for you, I'm sorry they cancelled all of this on you!

It is very easy to find something to do for 3 days in Québec City and area.

dp

A distant foreign port is defined as any port not in Canada, Mexico, Central America, the Islands of the Caribbean (ABC Islands excluded), the Bahamas and Bermuda.

 

South America, along with Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao and the rest of the world are distant foreign ports:D.

Well, Ensanada is allowed because we have done several Hawaiian cruises leaving from one US Port and arriving in another and Ensanada was our foreign port stop. I believe Vancouver and Victoria also qualify as we have done RT cruises to Alaska from SF with those being the only foreign stops.

I think what is at the root of the "NO" is the same ship would be transporting you between to US ports without the distant foreign port being satisfied. I have had a couple of electronic conversations with a lawyer who has tried to get something firm as to how long of a break would be needed between voyages before the same ship could be used to transport you between two US ports. As you might guess, there was no firm amount of time given. So with that logic you could leave Bayonne this season, arrive in Quebec and lease a house until next season. When the ship returned the following year and you tried to go from Quebec to FLL, it could be determined you were in violation of the PVSA. I know that is a stretch, but there does not appear to be a set amount of time between voyages.

From what I understand as long as you are not listed on consecutive itineraries you do not need to worry about the PVSA.

It's an issue with the Quebec itineraries even though there us so overnight and the passenger could disembark however they are consecutive itineraries and treated as one cruise.

Well, Ensanada is allowed because we have done several Hawaiian cruises leaving from one US Port and arriving in another and Ensanada was our foreign port stop. I believe Vancouver and Victoria also qualify as we have done RT cruises to Alaska from SF with those being the only foreign stops.

Vancouver and Victoria are foreign ports and as such you can do round trips from a US port to Alaska stopping in one of those ports.

I may be mistaken but for Ensenada I believe that is still a foreign port that would be used in a round trip to Hawaii. If it is a one way from Hawaii to San Fransisco I have seen them disembark passengers in Ensenada (or vice versa) to make it a legal cruise as Ensenada is not a distant foreign port.

Well, Ensanada is allowed because we have done several Hawaiian cruises leaving from one US Port and arriving in another and Ensanada was our foreign port stop. I believe Vancouver and Victoria also qualify as we have done RT cruises to Alaska from SF with those being the only foreign stops.

RT (closed loop) is the key where only a foreign port is needed. When a cruise begins in one US port and ends in another US port the distant foreign port is required. For example, a ship that sailed from New York to LA via the Panama Canal stopping in every Central American country and Mexico would violate the PVSA if it did not stop in Colombia or the ABC islands.

For example, a ship that sailed from New York to LA via the Panama Canal stopping in every Central American country and Mexico would violate the PVSA if it did not stop in Colombia or the ABC islands.

And sailings from Anchorage to Boston via the recently open Northwest Passage (Crystal cruises) must call at a port in Greenland to satisfy the distant foreign port requirement.

No, because you are leaving from a US port and arriving in a foreign port which is fine.

 

If you left from Seattle, went to Canadain ports and Ended in Alaska then that would be a violation.

I am confused about this part. Aren't these northbound iternaries ending up in Seward Alaska which is an US port? Is it considered legal?