Difference Between Tenders & Life Boats

Why is the lifeboat deck so close to the water? If you have a sinking ship, wouldn't you want more time to get to muster station, and board? If they can't launch before the water rises, then the lifeboat would be useless.

Why is the lifeboat deck so close to the water? If you have a sinking ship, wouldn't you want more time to get to muster station, and board? If they can't launch before the water rises, then the lifeboat would be useless.

If the ship is sinking, you would long be at the muster station before the Captain gives the order to board the lifeboats and evacuate. The height of the embarkation deck is set by international regulation, and is set with a maximum height for a couple of reasons. One is that lowering a fully loaded boat with 150 people in it is an inherently dangerous thing, and the less time these people are subjected to hanging from two wire ropes the better. Because of the nature of the beast, wire ropes in a salt air environment can and do fail without warning, which is why they are required to be changed out every 5 years, regardless of condition. The other reason the deck is set so low has to do with geometry. The higher the boat deck is above the water, the less angle the ship has to list to one side before the boats on the high side cannot be lowered due to interference from the hull.

The QEII, and now the QM2 have had exemptions to the embarkation deck height (allowing for a higher deck) due to their use in crossing the North Atlantic in winter, where a lower deck could subject the boats to more damage from seas.

Look at the most recent example of a cruise ship sinking, the Concordia. The ship did not sink until over 2 hours after the reef was hit, even though having breached 4 adjacent watertight compartments (all cruise ships are designed to stay afloat with any 2 adjacent watertight compartments flooding) there was no force on God's earth that was going to keep the ship afloat. Schettino failed to call for muster in a timely fashion leading to the chaos in loading the boats, as well as having called for abandon ship before the passengers were away (when the passengers get into lifeboats and leave the ship, the crew stays behind until all passengers are away, and then they get into the liferafts to leave the ship). Yet, even with all of this, and the ship heeling over onto her side due to the second grounding, 23 of 26 lifeboats were launched.

Schettino failed to call for muster in a timely fashion leading to the chaos in loading the boats

How would that work today? Does the cruise line have a situation room on land where people can see all measurements, cameras etc (like they also know what drink I ordered 5 seconds ago)? From which they can advise, or maybe even very strongly advise what actions the Captain should take, like starting a muster?

In a video of the Concordia disaster I heard a land based officer telling the Captain he was no longer the boss after he happened to be in a lifeboat. If anyone on the bridge could have pressed a button "I don't believe the Captain is capable of handling this situation, please help", similar to a ship doctor declaring a Captain no longer fit, there probably would have been 0 casualties.

... declaring a Captain no longer fit, there probably would have been 0 casualties.

There would have been 0 casualties and an intact ship if Schettino hadn't been showing off like a 13-year-old boy, proving he wasn't fit to be in command.

That's true, but still he was hired to be Master. Licensed, experience, everything. I don't know about his career before becoming Master, but he might have been excellent. It would be nice if every junior officer could, maybe even anonymously, ring a bell to ask for backup.

I was on the Allure of the Seas (much too big!) in February and one of my trivia partners pointed out to me that the lifeboats on it are not designed to be used as tenders. There are no benches or similar, you would sit back to back with feet in depressions in the floor. Sounds unpleasant.

If I remember correctly Prinsendam explained it something like the tenders have a double "hull" and the lifeboats have a single "hull". Hull may be the wrong word, but it was something like that.

While Technically everything hanging from the davits on the ship are "Lifeboats", thats the way I've always understood it. The bigger square shaped (Twin Hull) boats are the "Tenders" and the small oval shaped (Single Hull) are the "Lifeboats". I've never seen the "Lifeboats" used as tenders. Only the big double hulls.

How would that work today? Does the cruise line have a situation room on land where people can see all measurements, cameras etc (like they also know what drink I ordered 5 seconds ago)? From which they can advise, or maybe even very strongly advise what actions the Captain should take, like starting a muster?

 

In a video of the Concordia disaster I heard a land based officer telling the Captain he was no longer the boss after he happened to be in a lifeboat. If anyone on the bridge could have pressed a button "I don't believe the Captain is capable of handling this situation, please help", similar to a ship doctor declaring a Captain no longer fit, there probably would have been 0 casualties.

Even before the Concordia, the ISM code requires a "QI", or Qualified Individual" to whom the Master makes notification whenever there is a "marine incident" (and marine incident is defined as damage to equipment, ship, or third party exceeding $20k, any accident requiring more than first aid, or any pollution incident). That QI is the company's point man for handling the incident, but the Captain is still in command on the ship, and his decisions are only overridden in extreme circumstances. Having said that, the QI, in this instance, should have insisted (as is his responsibility) on Schettino (I refuse to give him the title) ordering the passengers to muster. I believe it was this failure that resulted in the Costa QI being convicted.

The person who you are referring to as yelling at Schettino was the Italian CG commander, on the scene.

The Staff Captain, and the Hotel Director were also convicted of failure to perform their duties properly, which in the case of the Staff Captain would have been to override the Captain if he felt it prudent.

That's true, but still he was hired to be Master. Licensed, experience, everything. I don't know about his career before becoming Master, but he might have been excellent. It would be nice if every junior officer could, maybe even anonymously, ring a bell to ask for backup.

Actually, Schettino had another allision (the proper maritime term for a "collision" where only one object was moving, since "co llision" implies both were moving) while master of a ship, in Germany. He ran the ship into the breakwater at Bremerhaven, if I remember right.

Even before the Concordia, the ISM code requires a "QI", or Qualified Individual" to whom the Master makes notification whenever there is a "marine incident" (and marine incident is defined as damage to equipment, ship, or third party exceeding $20k, any accident requiring more than first aid, or any pollution incident). That QI is the company's point man for handling the incident, but the Captain is still in command on the ship, and his decisions are only overridden in extreme circumstances. Having said that, the QI, in this instance, should have insisted (as is his responsibility) on Schettino (I refuse to give him the title) ordering the passengers to muster. I believe it was this failure that resulted in the Costa QI being convicted.

 

The person who you are referring to as yelling at Schettino was the Italian CG commander, on the scene.

 

The Staff Captain, and the Hotel Director were also convicted of failure to perform their duties properly, which in the case of the Staff Captain would have been to override the Captain if he felt it prudent.

Thank you (again!). At least he (or someone else) notified the QI then. Nice to know such an officer exists, even if it didn't work this time.

I wonder what got the HD in trouble. He'd have no rank and little education on maritime matters?

How does a Staff Captain override the Captain? "Listen everone, I'm the boss now because the Captain is crazy and I'm not."?

The worst part I saw in that video was full knowledge on the bridge, and total nonsense told to passengers and probably crew. (The best part being that a ship doesn't suddenly fail complety like a plane, leaving plenty of time to prepare). Then again, leaving passengers clueless about what's happening seems to be a major part of cruise ship personnel training.

Thank you (again!). At least he (or someone else) notified the QI then. Nice to know such an officer exists, even if it didn't work this time.

 

I wonder what got the HD in trouble. He'd have no rank and little education on maritime matters?

 

How does a Staff Captain override the Captain? "Listen everone, I'm the boss now because the Captain is crazy and I'm not."?

 

The worst part I saw in that video was full knowledge on the bridge, and total nonsense told to passengers and probably crew. (The best part being that a ship doesn't suddenly fail complety like a plane, leaving plenty of time to prepare). Then again, leaving passengers clueless about what's happening seems to be a major part of cruise ship personnel training.

The Hotel Director was found to not have fulfilled his assigned emergency duties, which include making the announcements to the passengers and overseeing the passenger muster.

There would be no "formal" taking over of command, it would just be the Staff saying that "I disagree with you, sir" and then giving orders. Unless the Captain wanted to get on the PA and the radios and start contradicting the Staff, making himself look even more clueless, the Staff is then in charge, but it is also his responsibility to answer to the authorities as to why he took command, and that investigation could always go against him at a later date.

Schettino was given a report from the engine room within 6 minutes of the allision, that 3 watertight compartments were flooding. He is heard on the VDR (voice data recorder) and on a cell phone video taken on the bridge, saying "is it 2 or 3 compartments? If it is 2 we are okay, if it is 3 we are in trouble". He was repeatedly informed that, at first 3, then 4 compartments were flooding, so he was very aware that nothing was going to keep the ship from sinking, except the grounding back on Giglio, which contrary to his claims, he had nothing to do with, since the ship had no power to move or steer, it was simply drifting.

There would be no "formal" taking over of command, it would just be the Staff saying that "I disagree with you, sir" and then giving orders. Unless the Captain wanted to get on the PA and the radios and start contradicting the Staff, making himself look even more clueless, the Staff is then in charge, but it is also his responsibility to answer to the authorities as to why he took command, and that investigation could always go against him at a later date .

I'm not a psychiatrist but I would expect Schettino to use force to get hold of the microphone.. "I disagree" doesn't feel like "section 4, paragraph 2.1.6 clearly says.." Does it ever happen on ships (not necessarily cruise ships) that the captain gets overruled by someone lower in rank? From the video I didn't get a feeling that the second in command could have stood up (successfully) saying "that's enough Captain, you're no longer the master. Now leave the bridge"

At least a few officers must have known that there should have been a muster as soon as they knew the situation was hopeless. If they have just one tool, persuasion, instead of for instance "when five officers unanimously decide the captain should do such and so, the captain will give those orders".

With the greatest respect Chief - those on the bridge that were convicted other than the idiot in charge were -

1st officer Ciro Ambrosio, senior watch officer, junior watch officer Silvia Coronica & the Indonesian helmsman.

The staff captain Roberto Bosio along with at least 2nd officer Simone Canessa & some others had the deck crew prepare the boats. When finally the order was given to abandon ship many of the boats were ready to go. For this evacuation the crew were given an award by Lloyd's of London.

Because Costa had not put any of the navigating staff through a Bridge Resourse Management [bRM] course - they were mostly unaware of what they could have done short of mutiny. So the staff captain quietly got things done that saved a lot of time.

Roberto Bosio - now master with Costa & 2/0 Canessa were two of the unsung heroes on that night.

The 2nd officer & a doctor were the last to leave the side of the ship after assisting passengers down the ladders.

Chief do you know when this BRM became mandatory & for whom.

I did mine in 1984 prior to taking over a new tanker for Shell.

Back on topic: a "lifeboat" is a craft intended to be used to rescue people at sea. Most of them are carried on ships, but they are also stationed on shore in many places. Some are inflatable, most nowadays are motorized but, regardless of type or design, it is their purpose - not their design- which earns them the name: "lifeboat".

A "tender" is a craft intended to transfer people from a ship to shore. It might be based at some port, and might be too large to be hoisted aboard a ship. Most ships carrying passengers use their "lifeboats" as "tenders". So, any craft used to transfer people from a moored ship to shore is a "tender" --- it is the use to which they are put - not their design - which earns them the name "tender".

With the greatest respect Chief - those on the bridge that were convicted other than the idiot in charge were -

1st officer Ciro Ambrosio, senior watch officer, junior watch officer Silvia Coronica & the Indonesian helmsman.

The staff captain Roberto Bosio along with at least 2nd officer Simone Canessa & some others had the deck crew prepare the boats. When finally the order was given to abandon ship many of the boats were ready to go. For this evacuation the crew were given an award by Lloyd's of London.

Because Costa had not put any of the navigating staff through a Bridge Resourse Management [bRM] course - they were mostly unaware of what they could have done short of mutiny. So the staff captain quietly got things done that saved a lot of time.

Roberto Bosio - now master with Costa & 2/0 Canessa were two of the unsung heroes on that night.

The 2nd officer & a doctor were the last to leave the side of the ship after assisting passengers down the ladders.

Chief do you know when this BRM became mandatory & for whom.

I did mine in 1984 prior to taking over a new tanker for Shell.

I stand corrected. I was working off my memory of the report, its time to go back and revisit it. I am surprised that Costa has not required BRM (didn't catch that in the report if it was there). You would have been one of the first to acquire the BRM certification, as the requirement was from the STCW convention (signed in 1978, but not ratified into force until April, 1984). Up until the 2010 Manila amendments to STCW, it was required only for Chief Officer and Master licenses, but is now required for all deck officers.

And I agree that 99% of the crew acted extremely well, given the direction, or lack of it, from above.

I was on the Allure of the Seas (much too big!) in February and one of my trivia partners pointed out to me that the lifeboats on it are not designed to be used as tenders. There are no benches or similar, you would sit back to back with feet in depressions in the floor. Sounds unpleasant.

Any lifeboat is going to be very unpleasant. On ships that have lifeboats used as tenders, pay close attention to the capacity limits stenciled on the side. You'll see that when used as lifeboats, the capacity is much higher.

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Has anyone actually measured whether 150 people who have just spent a week dining on a cruise ship and who are wearing lifejackets, would actually fit in these little tenders? 30 years ago maybe, but they are having to make everything larger these days, even airline seats. And have you ever tried to return from muster drill on an elevator with your life jacket on? Not many people can fit in an elevator then.

On our last cruise when we tendered in to port, I noticed that there were seat numbers on the benches on the tender, about 150 I think. We loaded about 65 people on that tender and it was pretty cramped. I hope I never have to find out if 150 people could fit in a life and death situation. :confused:

On our last cruise when we tendered in to port, I noticed that there were seat numbers on the benches on the tender, about 150 I think. We loaded about 65 people on that tender and it was pretty cramped. I hope I never have to find out if 150 people could fit in a life and death situation. :confused:

Most ship's tenders are about 100-125 person capacity as a tender (using the upper deck as well), and 150 person as a lifeboat. The space per person is allocated per SOLAS, and is based on a 76kg person (167 lb), and the space is 18" side to side (at the shoulders) and 24" from front of knee to back of butt. Most people find that the only way to fit into a lifeboat is to have alternating people lean forward or sit upright, since most folks' shoulders are wider than 18".

We did an experiment years ago, when I was working offshore oil rigs. We had 65 man totally enclosed lifeboats, and we wanted to see how many "normal sized oil field workers" in immersion suits, would fit into that boat. By jamming folks in, and stacking a couple like cordwood, we were maxed out at 56. Thank goodness non-passenger vessels carry 200% capacity in lifeboats.

Here's a video of 150 people (all young and fit, likely crew) being loaded into a lifeboat on Volendam in

calm weather, daylight and with no one injured, disabled or panicked and the ship moored.

I'm not a psychiatrist but I would expect Schettino to use force to get hold of the microphone.. "I disagree" doesn't feel like "section 4, paragraph 2.1.6 clearly says.." Does it ever happen on ships (not necessarily cruise ships) that the captain gets overruled by someone lower in rank? From the video I didn't get a feeling that the second in command could have stood up (successfully) saying "that's enough Captain, you're no longer the master. Now leave the bridge"

At least a few officers must have known that there should have been a muster as soon as they knew the situation was hopeless. If they have just one tool, persuasion, instead of for instance "when five officers unanimously decide the captain should do such and so, the captain will give those orders".

The famous example, though fictional, was "The Caine Mutiny".