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Port Galveston closed due to fog


proggieus
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I can tell you that my ship has every piece of navigational equipment listed in this article, as do nearly all ships today. Being a US flag vessel, we don't use the state pilots, we use the federal pilots, and we've been stuck in Galveston fog for a lot longer than a few hours, many, many times.

 

The author seems to feel that simply because data can be uploaded to an electronic chart that they are therefore more accurate. The problem is, where does that data come from? From hydrographic surveys, and Notices to Mariners issued by, in the US, the USCG relating to hazards (missing buoys, wrecks, etc.). When the new survey information is issued by the US Hydrographic Office, a revised chart is made, and can be purchased, or printed on the ship the same as the electronic charts. Similarly, the Notices are issued by the USCG to the electronic chart folks at the same time it is made available to ships via electronic communication for manual updating of paper charts.

 

So, there is little difference between a paper chart's accuracy and the electronic version, the real issue being how often the data is provided (frequency of surveys, etc.). Note the author's statement: "The member governments should coordinate amongst themselves, wherever necessary, to timely update the information and ensure greatest possible uniformity in the published charts." Note the use of "should", not "do".

Does an electronic chart make navigation easier than a paper chart, sure, because it can integrate data better than the human taking all those data points and putting them on a paper chart. Does an ECDIS system show every danger or all possible environmental inputs, no.

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All I had to read was that the pilots declined the invitation to meet soon (they get tired of hearing the industry's concern yet won't safely adjust their procedures) and offered to meet in April when the fog season is over. The pilots' representative argument is that they would not be able to see a stranded fisherman? Give me a break.

 

I don't believe that is their sole argument, but it is one of the things I mentioned earlier. The Houston ship channel, which Galveston is part of, has fishing boats actively fishing in the channel on a daily basis. Not all of these boats have radar reflectors, nor AIS transponders, and when actively fishing, there is some ambiguity over who has the right of way, a vessel fishing with nets or a vessel constrained by draft, depending on whether you follow the ColRegs or the Inland Rules. The rules change at the Galveston jetty lights, but the shipping channel continues further out to sea for ships constrained by their draft to the channel.

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We were able to change our SW flight from Sunday at 1 PM to Monday at 11 AM from Hobby straight thru' to OKC . SW has no change fees, but does charge whatever the fare difference is. We were not charged the extra fare due to this being a circumstance over which we had no control. I heard a couple of horror stories about AA while still on board Liberty. We were off about 3:15 with suites and Pinnacles. Glad to hear that LB got away last night late. I was concerned that she might not get out of port until later today. We know that fog is common this time of year, but this was our first problem with debarkation. The Windjammer was open for lunch as well as Cafe Promenade and Sorrento's. The back to back people and Pinnacles were offered their usual lunch in the dining room. So there were many food choices. But of course lines for the two places on the Promenade had long lines. Good to hear about the $25 OBC. We were delayed boarding once several years ago and were given $20 OBC back then.

 

Hi, we were on the same ship and flew Southwest as well, but we had to pay the extra fare? I told them what had happened also. How did you get them to do that? We had to pay like $650 extra. Should I call them to see if they'll refund it?

Thanks,

Diane

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I don't believe that is their sole argument, but it is one of the things I mentioned earlier. The Houston ship channel, which Galveston is part of, has fishing boats actively fishing in the channel on a daily basis. Not all of these boats have radar reflectors, nor AIS transponders, and when actively fishing, there is some ambiguity over who has the right of way, a vessel fishing with nets or a vessel constrained by draft, depending on whether you follow the ColRegs or the Inland Rules. The rules change at the Galveston jetty lights, but the shipping channel continues further out to sea for ships constrained by their draft to the channel.

 

I grew up on Galveston Bay and was one of those fisherman at/ in the channel as a teenager. The bay is very shallow. In addition the channel is not that wide. Huge tankers mainly carrying petroleum and fertilizer going in and out all day. Running joke was we were going to die either being hit by a ship or going over in the ships wake on the wrong side of the channel marker and dieing of a concussion as the water is so shallow at the oyster reefs.

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I don't believe that is their sole argument, but it is one of the things I mentioned earlier. The Houston ship channel, which Galveston is part of, has fishing boats actively fishing in the channel on a daily basis. Not all of these boats have radar reflectors, nor AIS transponders, and when actively fishing, there is some ambiguity over who has the right of way, a vessel fishing with nets or a vessel constrained by draft, depending on whether you follow the ColRegs or the Inland Rules. The rules change at the Galveston jetty lights, but the shipping channel continues further out to sea for ships constrained by their draft to the channel.

 

Chengkp,

 

You may have insight as well, but also isn't there some Homeland security issues with the channel being small, and a disabled ship could shut down the Port easily and the related Petro supply for the Nation.

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Chengkp,

 

You may have insight as well, but also isn't there some Homeland security issues with the channel being small, and a disabled ship could shut down the Port easily and the related Petro supply for the Nation.

 

I've never heard of anything like this being discussed. Of course a major dislocation to shipping could cause problems with our economy, but heck, just look at the tankers stacked up outside Galveston right now. There are always more ships than docks, and as I've said, the fog delays affect a lot more tankers and cargo ships than cruise ships. It is interesting to note in the Houston Chronicle article linked that only RCI was bringing suit to lower pilot fees. No other type of ship or shipping industry group is pushing for relaxation of fog restrictions in Galveston/Houston. While cruise ships do pay a premium in pilot fees, they account for what, 6 transits a week (3 inbound, 3 outbound), while the ports of Houston/Galveston handle 70-80 large ships a day, plug numbers of tugs and barges.

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Is it an all year or just certain times of the year fog problem out of Galveston? We had a terrible blizzard the last couple of days, 4ft snow drifts across the roads, zero visibility and Walmart actually closed yesterday!

 

Mainly during the winter. It's when warmer air moves over the cooler waters. Other times of the year, differences in temps from fronts moving through hitting the water in the Gulf can cause all sorts of violent thunderstorms. In Texas, we don't have weather, we have Weather. Someone once told me Texas was the only place you could be up to your ass in mud and have dust blowing in your eye.

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I

The author seems to feel that simply because data can be uploaded to an electronic chart that they are therefore more accurate. The problem is, where does that data come from?

...

Does an electronic chart make navigation easier than a paper chart, sure, because it can integrate data better than the human taking all those data points and putting them on a paper chart. Does an ECDIS system show every danger or all possible environmental inputs, no.

 

They get precise data from their last trip either 7 days or 12 hours before.

It sounds like pilots have such good eyesight they can see down in the water 20 or more feet when visibility in the channel is never more then 5 feet?

Edited by Junkhouse
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They get precise data from their last trip either 7 days or 12 hours before.

It sounds like pilots have such good eyesight they can see down in the water 20 or more feet when visibility in the channel is never more then 5 feet?

 

Chart data does not come from the last time they were there. How does a pilot conning a ship through the channel know whether or not the channel has filled in or the side of the channel eroded and fallen into the channel without a hydrographic survey or dredging data. The ship's depth sounder does not provide side scan technology, and it also only shows the depth directly under the ship, so if it shows a problem, it's too late. Does the pilot stop and determine the channel buoy's position each and every time? No. If someone feels a buoy has been moved, or a ship reports running one down, then the USCG sends out buoy tenders which will stop and accurately determine the buoy's position using GPS and then either move it back to position or send out chart updates regarding the position. A pilot cannot update a chart by their own "observations", it must come from a government agency to be an official chart suitable for navigation.

 

I don't think I said the pilots can see underwater, but they can tell from surface conditions whether currents are running strong or not, whether there are eddies which can indicate a possible change in the bottom profile, and seeing approaching gusts of wind that could cause the ship to move unpredictably.

 

If the technology was there to allow zero visibility transits, why has the other 98% of the world's shipping not raising a ruckus about fog delays?

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Let me ask another question. Since the pilots get paid per ship transit, and therefore when the port is closed they don't make any money, why would they oppose any "new technology" or loosening of safety rules that would allow them to move more ships? I don't know, but if I were a harbor pilot, I would resent anything that limited my income, and would look for and lobby for anything that would help my bottom line.

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The ship channel is a boat lane and if anybody is stopped or fishing in it should be fined. Like stopping on an interstate lane to watch the sunset.

 

I agree with you. One thing I like about the bulletin board is the ability to share ideas and facts about a problem. this has been very educational.

So let's say we made the Ship Channel equivalent to an interstate highway meaning no bicycle riders, no Sunday drivers, no pedestrian crossings, etc. And maybe a requirement would be that you can't operate without radar and gps and a digital path back to your home port (or some port you have access to). And there will be a digital path made available for specific cruise ships (or any one who will pay for a digital path such as a tanker ship). the digital paths would be maintained by some governmental authority and sold to those who want/need them, kind of like a landing slot at an airport that has zero vision landing capability. all non commercial boats with the required radar and gps would be required to return to their home port or an alternate port they have a digital path to if there was any fog, leaving the ship channel open to commercial traffic.

Would something like this work to solve the problem we are discussing?

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Mainly during the winter. It's when warmer air moves over the cooler waters. Other times of the year, differences in temps from fronts moving through hitting the water in the Gulf can cause all sorts of violent thunderstorms. In Texas, we don't have weather, we have Weather. Someone once told me Texas was the only place you could be up to your ass in mud and have dust blowing in your eye.

 

 

 

Love this! I moved to South Texas from the East Coast 12 years ago and completely understand. Too funny.

 

 

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Let me ask another question. Since the pilots get paid per ship transit, and therefore when the port is closed they don't make any money, why would they oppose any "new technology" or loosening of safety rules that would allow them to move more ships? I don't know, but if I were a harbor pilot, I would resent anything that limited my income, and would look for and lobby for anything that would help my bottom line.

 

They are Union so I assume they get paid when they are on duty. The Authority is the one getting paid for the transit.

 

http://work.chron.com/salaries-harbor-pilots-5915.html

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Chart data does not come from the last time they were there. How does a pilot conning a ship through the channel know whether or not the channel has filled in or the side of the channel eroded and fallen into the channel without a hydrographic survey or dredging data. The ship's depth sounder does not provide side scan technology, and it also only shows the depth directly under the ship, so if it shows a problem, it's too late. Does the pilot stop and determine the channel buoy's position each and every time? No. If someone feels a buoy has been moved, or a ship reports running one down, then the USCG sends out buoy tenders which will stop and accurately determine the buoy's position using GPS and then either move it back to position or send out chart updates regarding the position. A pilot cannot update a chart by their own "observations", it must come from a government agency to be an official chart suitable for navigation.

 

I don't think I said the pilots can see underwater, but they can tell from surface conditions whether currents are running strong or not, whether there are eddies which can indicate a possible change in the bottom profile, and seeing approaching gusts of wind that could cause the ship to move unpredictably.

 

If the technology was there to allow zero visibility transits, why has the other 98% of the world's shipping not raising a ruckus about fog delays?

 

Must fish finders that the general public can buy from retailers have side scan technology. They even have trolling motors that can follow a track or hold you in one position. I have technology on my cell phone to accurately track other cell phones and even track TILES I can place on other items so I don't loose. There are near proximity devices. I would imagine companies want to protect their investments that cost hundreds of millions of dollars with the latest and greatest technology. There are weather stations along the channel that record wind, water level and even current.

 

Sorry, to me it seems the Union has given bogus arguments to keep their members well paid and relevant.

 

There are ways to make safe transits when weather conditions are bad, like only allowing one way traffic. Pilots are still needed but procedures are archaic and need to be adjusted.

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They are Union so I assume they get paid when they are on duty. The Authority is the one getting paid for the transit.

 

http://work.chron.com/salaries-harbor-pilots-5915.html

 

Which "Authority" is getting paid for pilotage? The Houston Pilot Commission is the oversight board for the Pilot's Association, is this who you are thinking of?. The Pilot's Association is a professional association, owned by the pilots in that port. Pilotage fees go directly to the Association, and the pilot's "salaries" are set by the number of ships the association moves in a year.

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Must fish finders that the general public can buy from retailers have side scan technology. They even have trolling motors that can follow a track or hold you in one position. I have technology on my cell phone to accurately track other cell phones and even track TILES I can place on other items so I don't loose. There are near proximity devices. I would imagine companies want to protect their investments that cost hundreds of millions of dollars with the latest and greatest technology. There are weather stations along the channel that record wind, water level and even current.

 

Sorry, to me it seems the Union has given bogus arguments to keep their members well paid and relevant.

 

There are ways to make safe transits when weather conditions are bad, like only allowing one way traffic. Pilots are still needed but procedures are archaic and need to be adjusted.

 

Large parts of many channels are restricted to one way traffic even in clear weather, due to increases in ship size. And, again, what is the horsepower to weight ratio of your station-keeping trolling motor. Yes, the companies want to protect their investments in the ships, so they do have the most up to date equipment on the ships. So, given my personal knowledge that the pilots are a professional association and not unionized, and their income depends on the volume of ships handled per year, why would the pilots not use this advanced technology to move more ships.

 

Admittedly a little dated, but a USCG PAWSA (Ports and Waterways Safety Assessment) for the port of Houston/Galveston showed that visibility restrictions were a major risk factor, and current mitigation means (the best available technology) along with the USCG's VTS (Vessel Traffic Service) radar (much like the FAA's regional ATC centers) would not bring the risk factors down where they are acceptable.

 

And while the cruise lines may be clamoring for better service during fog, I would bet that 95+% of the Captains on their ships are just fine with not proceeding in zero visibility.

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Yeah that was a fun conversation with the airline when i had to try and explain their own change fee policies to them.

 

Got a flight out tomorrow morning. And a hotel for tonight.

 

 

It’s going to be a zoo to disembark:eek:

 

What airline is this? I guess I should double check the policies when I am ready to book my flights for next February.

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yes we still had to pay the change fee, they wanted $200 per ticket, i pulled up their site and it said it should have been $75 since it was within 24 hour of departure and the new flight was within 24 hours of the request. had to get a supervisoer involved and he finally said they would do it for $100.00 per ticket, i agreed because i needed to get the flight changed, they called back 5 minutes later and said they would do the $75.

 

Thanks for this I also was charged the $200CAD pp for this. After reading this I called and submitted a refund request and I'm getting the entire $400.00 back.

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Thanks for this I also was charged the $200CAD pp for this. After reading this I called and submitted a refund request and I'm getting the entire $400.00 back.

 

 

 

Congrats Canada Rob. Were you also flying United? I have reached out to American Airlines and am still waiting to hear back from them.

 

 

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I read an interesting article just this morning about this issue for those who are interested. And of course, like everything else in the US, it’s partly about the good old dollar.

 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Fog-feud-lingers-over-Galveston-s-cruise-business-12628637.php

 

 

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