Tipping

Because they are not tips.

 

If P&O (and the others) were asking for an amount that people would recognise as a tip they might leave in restaurant, most people would be amenable to paying it. As it is, if a couple use the buffet for breakfast and lunch and the MDR for dinner, then P&O are valuing the evening meal at £120, excluding wine. That seems a bit of a reach.

Confused completely where did you get that P&O are valuing the meal at £120.

Which restaurants would that be 15 years ago? BTW I am not in any way suggesting that you did not pay your tips.

 

 

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For as long as speciality has existed!

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On land, at least here in the UK staff get the minimum wage so a tip is just an extra, not an essential part of someone's livelihood. Consequently in the Uk your are quite correct I for one could not really care less if someone else tips or how much.

 

A lot of us however are not assuming anything, you get to know staff and prior to the autotips staff were quite open about just how often pax did not attend the MDR on the last night and did not pay tips, a big part of those staffs earnings. Now staff don't / are not allowed to talk about these issues as much

 

I feel sorry for the staff who are deprived of chunk of their wages because the tips are really that. This being the case if others don't pay, those who do pay, end up paying more hence the recent, regular increases.

 

Everyone is however entitled to their opinion.

I wasn't going to make any further comments but I do agree with you(in part) People know that paying gratuities is and always has been expected when cruising.Those who don't are in effect expecting their fellow passengers to make up the shortfall. Why should we??

There will never be an end to this discussion until such time that P&O include the gratuities in the price of the cruise. That probably won't happen until the majority of passengers are removing the auto tips.That day can't come soon enough for me. Until then we'll reluctantly keep subsidising the cruises taken by tightwads.

Confused completely where did you get that P&O are valuing the meal at £120.

I may be wrong but I'm guessing the £12 per couple per day charge is based on this at a rate of 10% tip so in esssence a £120 meals worth per day.

However the cabin steward deserves a share in my eyes aswell, so maybe it's a £80 meal per day?

Sooner p&o do away with this and include it within their fares (even if it means slightly higher) the better

I wasn't going to make any further comments but I do agree with you(in part) People know that paying gratuities is and always has been expected when cruising.Those who don't are in effect expecting their fellow passengers to make up the shortfall. Why should we??

There will never be an end to this discussion until such time that P&O include the gratuities in the price of the cruise. That probably won't happen until the majority of passengers are removing the auto tips.That day can't come soon enough for me. Until then we'll reluctantly keep subsidising the cruises taken by tightwads.

I totally agree with you.

We've sailed with P&O for many years and witnessed lots of situations regarding tips, including a world sector where a lady on the full world circumnavigation said 'the tipping cost for 100 days is ridiculous, and I shall tip the steward and waiters £20 and that's enough'

We were also on the Arcadia Alaska voyage in 2011 when the waiters went on strike in Seattle because the level of tipping had dropped so low, and P&O had promised 6 months previously that auto tipping would be introduced, but it hadn't happened. Auto tipping was rolled out across the fleet soon after.

Obviously the level has increased significantly since then, although is less than other lines, and the increase has caused the current divisions.

Recently, with Thomson acquiring the 2 Vision ships from Royal Caribbean, Legend and Splendour of the Seas (2 of our favourite ships over the years) we have cruised with them in the Med and Caribbean (an excellent experience in both cases).

They include tips in the fare, so in fact everybody pays up front, and it works. There is no controversy, and the crew are happy and friendly and work hard to please. Of course people tip extra at the end of the cruise because of good service, but there is no feeling of obligation, as has been raised on this thread.

If P&O were to follow suit there would be a slight increase in fares, but, with no tips to pay, I'm sure their revenue would not suffer as people would accept it.

Confused completely where did you get that P&O are valuing the meal at £120.

I may be wrong but I'm guessing the £12 per couple per day charge is based on this at a rate of 10% tip so in esssence a £120 meals worth per day.

 

However the cabin steward deserves a share in my eyes aswell, so maybe it's a £80 meal per day?

Sooner p&o do away with this and include it within their fares (even if it means slightly higher) the better

Correct. If they have eaten in the buffet for breakfast and lunch, a lot of people would take the view there wasn't any service that deserved a tip, which leaves the evening meal in the MDR. Wine is subject to a separate inclusive gratuity, which leaves the food to base the value of the tip.

As for the cabin steward, again if you are looking it as a real tip, I am not sure many people would leave a tip in the equivalent sort of room on land (although I know one vocal contributor will chime in to disagree).

My point is there is no chance people would leave anywhere near the same level of tip in a UK hotel as P&O (and the other cruise companies) are asking for as a service charge, so it is understandable that some people will react by removing what they perceive to be an exorbitant charge.

I've just worked out that adding £5 per person per day to the cruise fare (allowing for the likely size of the current 'pot' given the inevitability that some people currently opt out of the £6 auto service charges and either pay less in cash or nothing at all), this would add approximately 2.5% to cruise prices. That would be of the magnitude of a normal annual increase, possibly even less. Now I can't think that bookings would drop as a result of this, staff could be paid more in base salary and many of us would continue to pay additional discretionary cash tips, so morale and service levels would increase. Seems like a no brainier to me. And, of course, the biggest benefit would be no more circular threads on tipping :D

I've just worked out that adding £5 per person per day to the cruise fare (allowing for the likely size of the current 'pot' given the inevitability that some people currently opt out of the £6 auto service charges and either pay less in cash or nothing at all), this would add approximately 2.5% to cruise prices. That would be of the magnitude of a normal annual increase, possibly even less. Now I can't think that bookings would drop as a result of this, staff could be paid more in base salary and many of us would continue to pay additional discretionary cash tips, so morale and service levels would increase. Seems like a no brainier to me. And, of course, the biggest benefit would be no more circular threads on tipping :D

I rushed my back of a fag packet calculation and have reflected on it whilst in the car and I think the increase needed to absorb likely actual service charges would be more like 4%. And, of course, that increase would have to apply to all passengers (inc families). None the less, I still think the argument still stands. And, of course, P&O could trumpet the fact that they have abolished service charges which, as a promotional message, would probably offset the tiny percentage who would no longer be able to afford to cruise.

I rushed my back of a fag packet calculation and have reflected on it whilst in the car and I think the increase needed to absorb likely actual service charges would be more like 4%. And, of course, that increase would have to apply to all passengers (inc families). None the less, I still think the argument still stands. And, of course, P&O could trumpet the fact that they have abolished service charges which, as a promotional message, would probably offset the tiny percentage who would no longer be able to afford to cruise.

Sounds like a good idea.

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I totally agree with you.

We've sailed with P&O for many years and witnessed lots of situations regarding tips, including a world sector where a lady on the full world circumnavigation said 'the tipping cost for 100 days is ridiculous, and I shall tip the steward and waiters £20 and that's enough'

We were also on the Arcadia Alaska voyage in 2011 when the waiters went on strike in Seattle because the level of tipping had dropped so low, and P&O had promised 6 months previously that auto tipping would be introduced, but it hadn't happened. Auto tipping was rolled out across the fleet soon after.

Obviously the level has increased significantly since then, although is less than other lines, and the increase has caused the current divisions.

Recently, with Thomson acquiring the 2 Vision ships from Royal Caribbean, Legend and Splendour of the Seas (2 of our favourite ships over the years) we have cruised with them in the Med and Caribbean (an excellent experience in both cases).

They include tips in the fare, so in fact everybody pays up front, and it works. There is no controversy, and the crew are happy and friendly and work hard to please. Of course people tip extra at the end of the cruise because of good service, but there is no feeling of obligation, as has been raised on this thread.

If P&O were to follow suit there would be a slight increase in fares, but, with no tips to pay, I'm sure their revenue would not suffer as people would accept it.

Sounds like a workable idea as long as the crew are paid appropriately.

That women on the world cruise was disgusting leaving £20 tip.

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I rushed my back of a fag packet calculation and have reflected on it whilst in the car and I think the increase needed to absorb likely actual service charges would be more like 4%. And, of course, that increase would have to apply to all passengers (inc families). None the less, I still think the argument still stands. And, of course, P&O could trumpet the fact that they have abolished service charges which, as a promotional message, would probably offset the tiny percentage who would no longer be able to afford to cruise.

You are correct, cruisers search for cruises first by cruise line, second by itinerary and third by price. It's obvious by posts here that nearly all would prefer tips to be included in the fare. Are P&O listening?

David

You are correct, cruisers search for cruises first by cruise line, second by itinerary and third by price.

That might be true of 'cruisers' but the holidaymakers who make up a substantial chunk of the passengers on the big family ships will search by cruises first by price.

I believe that by having auto tips, rather than rolling the tips into the fare, the relevant crew have less tax liabilities, and also pay less to their recruitment agency, who take a commission on the salary. The increase might need to be slightly more than 4% in order to maintain the crew's nett earnings, but even so, this is hardly significant on a total cost of, say £5000, especially as you know you will not need to be budgeting to pay auto tips.

You are correct, cruisers search for cruises first by cruise line, second by itinerary and third by price. It's obvious by posts here that nearly all would prefer tips to be included in the fare. Are P&O listening?

 

David

Sorry but do not assume that everyone does the same as you and in the order your preference. To some price is very relevant and the first thing in most minds.

I believe that by having auto tips, rather than rolling the tips into the fare, the relevant crew have less tax liabilities, and also pay less to their recruitment agency, who take a commission on the salary. The increase might need to be slightly more than 4% in order to maintain the crew's nett earnings, but even so, this is hardly significant on a total cost of, say £5000, especially as you know you will not need to be budgeting to pay auto tips.

Not everybody spends £5000 on a cruise in fact a lot pay a considerable amount less.

Just to argue against myself, one of the problems of applying a single percentage increase, is that those paying more for a cabin will pay a greater amount, due to the percentage increase being applied to a fare. So, the only fair way is to apply a single lump sum increase to all passengers.

Sorry but do not assume that everyone does the same as you and in the order your preference. To some price is very relevant and the first thing in most minds.

After 40 years in sales i can assure you price is almost always the deciding factor for the sale of anything.

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Just to argue against myself, one of the problems of applying a single percentage increase, is that those paying more for a cabin will pay a greater amount, due to the percentage increase being applied to a fare. So, the only fair way is to apply a single lump sum increase to all passengers.

As has been mentioned the crew prefer the tax benefits more from tips.

I would set a £5 per day fee which could not be stopped on the understanding that absolutely no more tips are to be given.

I always give extra and autotip but at least this way everyone is left with a clear understanding what is required and everyone would pay exactly the same as everyone else.

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After 40 years in sales i can assure you price is almost always the deciding factor for the sale of anything.

 

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If that was really the case, luxury brands etc would not be around. We would all be shopping in Primark, driving Dacias and flying Ryanair. This is patently not the case, and having spent all my career in sales, selling premium products, it is important to differentiate between cost and value. The two are totally different.

Not everybody spends £5000 on a cruise in fact a lot pay a considerable amount less.

Perhaps I was not clear. I did say 'total' cost, and meant for two people. I don't think 2.5k is that much to pay for a cruise, per person.

Over a 14 day cruise, it makes me laugh when people complain about paying £84 on a cruise costing £2500.

Not everybody spends £5000 on a cruise in fact a lot pay a considerable amount less.

And quite a few considerably more.

If that was really the case, luxury brands etc would not be around. We would all be shopping in Primark, driving Dacias and flying Ryanair. This is patently not the case, and having spent all my career in sales, selling premium products, it is important to differentiate between cost and value. The two are totally different.

I have sold premium goods too but for the mass market,price is the deciding factor and just because we always get the best and not worry about the cost this simply is not the case with the vast majority of our market.

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I have sold premium goods too but for the mass market,price is the deciding factor and just because we always get the best and not worry about the cost this simply is not the case with the vast majority of our market.

 

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I think we just have to agree to disagree!

And quite a few considerably more.

You see we can agree.

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As has been mentioned the crew prefer the tax benefits more from tips.

I would set a £5 per day fee which could not be stopped on the understanding that absolutely no more tips are to be given.

I always give extra and autotip but at least this way everyone is left with a clear understanding what is required and everyone would pay exactly the same as everyone else.

 

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Do you actually know which tax regime the crew come under? I think you will find none of the crew ( who rely on tips at any rate) come under the UK tax rules....they will be non resident for a start.