New Report says Garden Island

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#41
I come from a land down under
23,375 Posts
Joined Jul 2014
Originally posted by Womble99
How come it comes down to Garden Island or move it out of Sydney? The only options that seem to come up are GI, Pt Kembla or Newcastle? There is another perfectly good port in Sydney that could already have the capacity to take as many cruise ships you want to throw at it? Plus you wouldn't have to upset the latte drinkers to build there........
Probably because most who sail out of Sydney want to see the Coathanger and the Eggshells
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#42
Sydney, Australia
1,433 Posts
Joined Dec 2012
Originally posted by GUT2407
Probably because most who sail out of Sydney want to see the Coathanger and the Eggshells
got it in one there Mr Gut.

Again, there is not a single reason for the Navy to be at GI, other than they were already there. Move them on, and build a world class facility which includes a cruise terminal.

There will always be the negative nellies & neds of this world. There would be no harbour bridge, no opera house, no Darling Harbour etc etc if someone with a bit of gumption and foresight just didn't say "shutup - we are building it."

In this city we are finally starting to see the type of infrastructure we need as a 'world city' in spite of the whingers. We are getting roads, light rail, convention & entertainment centre etc etc. We just need a new cruise terminal and accompanying infrastructure.
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#43
596 Posts
Joined Jul 2015
Reading through some of the senate estimate reports I can see why no one in NSW has been in a hurry to pull the trigger on moving the Navy out of Garden Island. For some reason I am not sure why they would want to move out an industry that brings in nearly a billion a year to Sydney? Not to mention the cost of moving it runs at a billion plus o.O
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#44
Sydney, Australia
13,959 Posts
Joined Oct 2008
Spot on.


If the only reason you're doing something is for economic reasons, then it should be clear that there is an economic benefit from doing so - and weigh it up against alternatives.


In that respect, it seems very lacking; a bit like the pie in the sky dreams for a Gold Coast terminal - which had the same criticisms against those who don't support it, but which the numbers keep going up and up to try to come up with technical solutions against nature...
#45
Queensland
6,953 Posts
Joined Dec 2009
Originally posted by mr walker
got it in one there Mr Gut.

Again, there is not a single reason for the Navy to be at GI, other than they were already there. Move them on, and build a world class facility which includes a cruise terminal.

There will always be the negative nellies & neds of this world. There would be no harbour bridge, no opera house, no Darling Harbour etc etc if someone with a bit of gumption and foresight just didn't say "shutup - we are building it."

In this city we are finally starting to see the type of infrastructure we need as a 'world city' in spite of the whingers. We are getting roads, light rail, convention & entertainment centre etc etc. We just need a new cruise terminal and accompanying infrastructure.
Agreed.
#46
596 Posts
Joined Jul 2015
Originally posted by mr walker
got it in one there Mr Gut.

Again, there is not a single reason for the Navy to be at GI, other than they were already there. Move them on, and build a world class facility which includes a cruise terminal.

There will always be the negative nellies & neds of this world. There would be no harbour bridge, no opera house, no Darling Harbour etc etc if someone with a bit of gumption and foresight just didn't say "shutup - we are building it."

In this city we are finally starting to see the type of infrastructure we need as a 'world city' in spite of the whingers. We are getting roads, light rail, convention & entertainment centre etc etc. We just need a new cruise terminal and accompanying infrastructure.
But how rapt are Joe Public and his mates going to be with your plan for a cruise terminal at Garden Island when they are told they have to cough up more than $40 each? That is every person in Australia would need to contribute through taxes over $40 just to move the Navy out, considering the cruiselines wouldn't be paying for it and only a portion of the population (those working or making an income) pays taxes.

It seems like a great idea to move them out but the cost to do it and the loss of revenue they bring to Sydney is unlikely to be exceeded by what it is replaced with. If it was then I have no doubt that the NSW govt and industry would have pushed it through a long time ago. We just have to face it that while we love to cruise out of the harbour with the great view it is going to be limited or we will have to pay for the privilege just like those who live on its foreshore do.
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#47
Sydney, Australia
1,433 Posts
Joined Dec 2012
Maybe we need a 'go fund me' page to raise the $s to move the navy and build a cruise terminal - I'm good for a hundred
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#48
The Stateroom Under The Stairs
388 Posts
Joined Sep 2016
Originally posted by mr walker
Maybe we need a 'go fund me' page to raise the $s to move the navy and build a cruise terminal - I'm good for a hundred
I see the big ole smiley face at the end of your post ... however please consider this from my perspective .......

I do agree that cruisers need better arrangements to operate from Sydney but please try to balance the need of people to go on their holiday over those of us who may need to use GI to put their life on the line as a part of their job on a daily basis.

GI supports our war fighting naval personnel (who also transport equipment and supplies to our Army and RAAF personnel).

It seems there are those who think our military personnel are less entitled to continue to operate from their traditional 'home' and the problem can be simply fixed by moving our Defence operations to somewhere else.

Why should we taxpayers pay for the convenience of 'the entitled' cruisers who are put out by the lack of infrastructure available in Sydney.

Face it Sydney Harbour is FULL no more room here.

How about we pull down the Harbour Bridge and build a new one that is higher to enable the mega crooze ships to pass under .......

I have just put on my flame proof suit ......................
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#49
114 Posts
Joined Feb 2017
Originally posted by Dobby_The_Ship_Elf
I see the big ole smiley face at the end of your post ... however please consider this from my perspective .......

I do agree that cruisers need better arrangements to operate from Sydney but please try to balance the need of people to go on their holiday over those of us who may need to use GI to put their life on the line as a part of their job on a daily basis.

GI supports our war fighting naval personnel (who also transport equipment and supplies to our Army and RAAF personnel).

It seems there are those who think our military personnel are less entitled to continue to operate from their traditional 'home' and the problem can be simply fixed by moving our Defence operations to somewhere else.

Why should we taxpayers pay for the convenience of 'the entitled' cruisers who are put out by the lack of infrastructure available in Sydney.

Face it Sydney Harbour is FULL no more room here.

How about we pull down the Harbour Bridge and build a new one that is higher to enable the mega crooze ships to pass under .......

I have just put on my flame proof suit ......................
OK I'll bite!

Is that suit RAN issue?

Why does it matter to the military where they're based? The view? The proximity to 'the cross'? Or 'cause "we" got there first?
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#50
596 Posts
Joined Jul 2015
Originally posted by banzaii
OK I'll bite!

Is that suit RAN issue?

Why does it matter to the military where they're based? The view? The proximity to 'the cross'? Or 'cause "we" got there first?
Maybe it matters so we have the ability to keep cruising? I don't know the reason why the Navy needs to be at GI, I am sure the govt does though or they would have moved after one of the several requests over the previous years. But going on the user pays option would you still be keen on cruising?

If the bill for moving the Navy out (not purchasing the land back or building any new facilities mind you) was footed by passing the costs on to the paying customers (that is you the cruiser) you would be looking at adding around $900+ to your fare in port costs *working on the assumption that there is a ship for all 365 days with an average of 3000 pax, even if you took it over 10 years at $90 you still need a ship every day which won't happen


Then you also have the residents of the Greater Sydney region who have to deal with the loss of around a billion $ from their annual GDP as it moves to another region.

Sydney is our favorite port to sail out of and it would be great to have more options however the harbor is full and sometimes I think we forget how much we already have and want too much more without looking at what it actually could cost. Maybe we have to accept it and look at alternatives, I honestly don't think the increase to the cruise industry is going to bring in more revenue than the Navy does to Sydney.
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#51
Sydney, Australia
13,959 Posts
Joined Oct 2008
Originally posted by banzaii

Why does it matter to the military where they're based? The view? The proximity to 'the cross'? Or 'cause "we" got there first?
Further to the above - the same reason any business/employer is based in the city.

A better supply of staff, better access to transport for both staff and parts (defence staff are often travelling domestically/internationally, and obviously technology/parts are often transported in), better access to suppliers, cheaper logistics cost. As they're substantial, these costs and benefits are greater. And they work every day of the year, not just "Summer season" so these benefits compound again compared to the alternative.
#52
76 Posts
Joined May 2010
The main reason the Navy remains where it is, is the cost to move and the dry dock. Creating the required shore support services to support the Navy in another location would be huge. And if you move them from Garden Island, then the training bases such as at HMAS Watson, Penguin, and Waterhen might as well move, no point training people and then having to move them to where the ships are.
And no one has considered the huge number of families that would have to relocate, away from established support networks. It's not easy for the families when one member is away for months on end every year and you need the support to help with everything. And all the partners that have to move/leave established jobs...just so the cruise industry can have a 'free' (they wont pay) new port.
#53
384 Posts
Joined Jun 2011
Originally posted by Womble99
But how rapt are Joe Public and his mates going to be with your plan for a cruise terminal at Garden Island when they are told they have to cough up more than $40 each? That is every person in Australia would need to contribute through taxes over $40 just to move the Navy out, considering the cruiselines wouldn't be paying for it and only a portion of the population (those working or making an income) pays taxes.

It seems like a great idea to move them out but the cost to do it and the loss of revenue they bring to Sydney is unlikely to be exceeded by what it is replaced with. If it was then I have no doubt that the NSW govt and industry would have pushed it through a long time ago. We just have to face it that while we love to cruise out of the harbour with the great view it is going to be limited or we will have to pay for the privilege just like those who live on its foreshore do.
You could easily help fund moving the RAN out of Sydney by land value capture on Garden Island. The land would be worth billions, and by selling parts of it off to private developers, you can easily pay for at least a good portion of moving them out.
#54
433 Posts
Joined May 2009
Originally posted by CroNich
You could easily help fund moving the RAN out of Sydney by land value capture on Garden Island. The land would be worth billions, and by selling parts of it off to private developers, you can easily pay for at least a good portion of moving them out.
Large chunks of it are heritage listed, so doing a knock down rebuild isn't really an option.

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#55
596 Posts
Joined Jul 2015
Originally posted by CroNich
You could easily help fund moving the RAN out of Sydney by land value capture on Garden Island. The land would be worth billions, and by selling parts of it off to private developers, you can easily pay for at least a good portion of moving them out.
The other problem is when Defence moved out of an area for development it is in the expectation that the area is given up at either cents in the dollar or gratis. No one ever pays full price for commonwealth land, we expect to be given a hand out by the govt not the other way around.
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#56
Sydney, Australia
13,959 Posts
Joined Oct 2008
Originally posted by CroNich
You could easily help fund moving the RAN out of Sydney by land value capture on Garden Island. The land would be worth billions, and by selling parts of it off to private developers, you can easily pay for at least a good portion of moving them out.
Right, so as said give away public assets to private gains, so no benefit there.
#57
384 Posts
Joined Jun 2011
Originally posted by The_Big_M
Right, so as said give away public assets to private gains, so no benefit there.
Not necessarily. Its about finding a balance between public land and private development. I would rather have a smaller scale Barangaroo than have it continued to be all private land owned by RAN.
#58
Sydney, Australia
13,959 Posts
Joined Oct 2008
Originally posted by CroNich
Not necessarily. Its about finding a balance between public land and private development. I would rather have a smaller scale Barangaroo than have it continued to be all private land owned by RAN.
As for balance, I would rather have the remaining greenery and limited public and industrial land as Sydney has - we've already lost much of it so are imbalanced as it is.
#59
Sydney, Australia
1,433 Posts
Joined Dec 2012
Interesting article in todays Tele on the Bradfield Oration, where Sir David Higgins says "Build a bridge, Sydney — and get building the future" calling on Sydney to move forward with planning to make it a world class city.
I hope the link works
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/pro...aign=editorial


Don't expect it will have any effect on the rusted on NO people, who will find a way/reason/excuse for anything to not go ahead. I imagine they were around in Bradfield's time too.

Definitely food for thought. I hope to see a new cruise terminal as part of a redevelopment of GI, which will include public access to a wonderful part of the Harbour, before I expire.
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