Woolloomooloo hullabaloo: Locals don't want cruise liners at Garden Island

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#41
1,333 Posts
Joined Oct 2011
Originally posted by bazzaw
As an ex-RAN submariner myself, I have extreme difficulty believing what you have said . The keel of an old Oberon boat is at about 16 metres at periscope depth. Don't know about the Collins class - but would suspect it to be similar.

"Botany Bay has a roughly circular shape of 6-7 km diameter and natural water depths that generally are less than 5 m but reach 10 m at the entrance and locally have been enhanced by dredging to 20 m.b.s.l.(metres below sea level). "

Interesting study of Botany bay here http://www.precisioninfo.com/rivers_...ive/?doc_id=26

of course, with enough money , I guess that ANYTHING can be done

It is interesting to see that the Carnival CEO seems so positive about the joint sharing of GI - we will have to wait and see what happens.


Barry
Ok I heard the Bay was 160m deep in parts. I only heard that they could when I did CSO-U training at Watson I vaguely remember the subject being brought up. Also on the CASEX every time we operated with the subs there was always an emphasis on focusing on the coast for hiding areas.

Though it has been known to happen in the Navy where someone will tell you something can happen when it cant.
#42
SE Queensland, Australia
5,360 Posts
Joined Oct 2007
Though it has been known to happen in the Navy where someone will tell you something can happen when it cant.


True!!! - but maybe not any worse than anywhere else. I don't listen to half what I am told and ignore the other half!!


Barry
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#43
1,333 Posts
Joined Oct 2011
2013 should get interesting. Sydney ports is publishing HAL's Oosterdam to dock at wharf 5 Barangaroo. Only one problem - it cant fit under the Harbour Bridge! Its a Vista class ship and too tall to go under.

I found a link about Botany bay depths http://bonzle.com/c/a?a=p&p=280396&cmd=sp

One thing I know for sure is that if these cruise ships keep coming with more intensity then Sydney harbour is not going to be able to accommodate them all with one wharf east of the bridge.
#44
SE Queensland, Australia
5,360 Posts
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That link is for the Botany Bay wide FAD, not for Botany Bay itself. It is for the area offshore from Botany Bay , which of course is very deep.

Barry
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#45
1,533 Posts
Joined Feb 2011
Sounds like the government needs to try and find Australia's answer to Port Everglades and fast!
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#46
Whalan
322 Posts
Joined Nov 2007
In the autumn 2011 edition of Shipping Australia Limited,
http://www.shippingaustralia.com.au/...ingAut2011.pdf
Gavin Smith from RCCL talks about having a berth for the cruise ships at Port Botany. He writes that Sydney Harbour be used for visiting ships, whilst the local ships operate out of Port Botany.
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#47
Sydney, Australia
13,969 Posts
Joined Oct 2008
Originally posted by Sutho
One thing I know for sure is that if these cruise ships keep coming with more intensity then Sydney harbour is not going to be able to accommodate them all with one wharf east of the bridge.
I really can't see them coming "with more intensity" with things as they stand. Demand isn't strong enough to warrant an increase, it's at the borderline now.
#48
1,333 Posts
Joined Oct 2011
What my guess is that in ten years time P&O Australia will not have their current fleet and it is likely that they will have ships that cannot fit under the harbour bridge.

In ten years time the original Grand Princess will be closing in on 25 years old. Princess dont normally keep ships that old and if precedence is anything to go off then we could be in line for that.....probably wishfull thinking.

My point is that if P&O Australia ever get a fleet that cannot fit under the bridge then it is big problems for Sydney and the cruise industry down here.
#49
Orewa , Auckland , N.Z.
18,967 Posts
Joined Jun 2001
Heres the answer...Build this in the middle of the harbour and have a tunnel to the shore.



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#50
Queensland
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LOL! Where did you find that, David? Is it an architect's dream????
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#51
SE Queensland, Australia
5,360 Posts
Joined Oct 2007
No No! That is David's new part-time abode that he is having built for him in Auckland Harbour. He will only use it when he is not cruising!

Barry
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#52
384 Posts
Joined Jun 2011
Originally posted by woodscruise
In the autumn 2011 edition of Shipping Australia Limited,
http://www.shippingaustralia.com.au/...ingAut2011.pdf
Gavin Smith from RCCL talks about having a berth for the cruise ships at Port Botany. He writes that Sydney Harbour be used for visiting ships, whilst the local ships operate out of Port Botany.
I agree with what he says 100%
With the amount of new container terminals at Port Botany I am sure there could be room for one or two cruise terminals, however it's got to do with money, if the government would invest properly it could actually be worthwhile and it's not like Botany is an ugly Bay it's just it's very industrial but like he says for seasonal or year round cruises it's not really about Sydney Harbour (although it's a nice touch) it's about the cruise itself so I think it could work, plus it's close to the airport as well
#53
384 Posts
Joined Jun 2011
"Carnival Australia boss Ann Sherry has revealed she expects a positive outcome for the cruise industry following the review into the possible shared use of Garden Island.
But she warned that the challenge facing the cruise sector is not winning approval for shared use of the naval base but actually making the arrangement work.
Speaking at the Carnival Australia Partnership Summit aboard Princess Cruises’ Dawn Princess, Sherry said she was expecting the review, conducted by Dr Allan Hawke, to spell good news for cruise lines.
A report will be submitted to defence minister Steven Smith early in the new year.
“We are expecting them to say yes you can share. The next phase is how do you make it work,” she said. “There has been a huge amount of support and a lot of submissions.”
Sherry added that the presence of nine ships in Sydney Harbour this year was an added incentive to push approval of the scheme through.
She ruled out the possibility of a solution in Botany Bay, saying it was a last resort in case Garden Island fell through.
“Nobody is advocating use of Botany Bay,” she declared, a view which may surprise Royal Caribbean which is keen to explore the prospect of Port Botany catering for its liners.
The visual effect of sailing past the Harbour Bridge and Opera House was a major drawcard for cruisers that would be overlooked by such a proposal, Sherry said.
“That's one of the reasons that Newcastle didn’t go as well as we thought,” she said. “Customers were willing to drive the extra couple of hours to have the opportunity to sail through the bridge.”
Meanwhile, she revealed that she had “somewhere in mind” for a new Brisbane facility closer to the airport, but declined to disclose further details."

Do you think the RAN would just be able to relocate there Canberra Class Ships up north during the November-April season? Because during the winter months there would not be any use for the cruise terminal at Garden Island, and they can use it then
#54
1,333 Posts
Joined Oct 2011
I do not think the RAN will be happy sharing if they have to move their ships.

The Garden Island wharfs are not long enough to share. When the Canberra class arrives they can only dock where the QM2 docks. The wharfs are not straight. There is no room at Garden Island as the wharfs are far too short to support cruise ships and warships.
#55
Orewa , Auckland , N.Z.
18,967 Posts
Joined Jun 2001
Originally posted by Sutho
I do not think the RAN will be happy sharing if they have to move their ships.

The Garden Island wharfs are not long enough to share. When the Canberra class arrives they can only dock where the QM2 docks. The wharfs are not straight. There is no room at Garden Island as the wharfs are far too short to support cruise ships and warships.
No room????
Does not look like that to me...


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#56
SE Queensland, Australia
5,360 Posts
Joined Oct 2007
Not sure what you mean David Those berths look fairly "full" to me.

Ann Sheery might be very positive -- but I will be VERY VERY surprised if.......

Barry
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A Blog of our unusual "World Cruise" - Brisbane to Brisbane, Australia - 12 weeks on two different P&O ships, Oriana and Arcadia - with a White Christmas in-between....UK 2010

A review of our 28 day cruise to Tahiti on Pacific Pearl.... Pacific Pearl to Tahiti

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#57
1,333 Posts
Joined Oct 2011
Originally posted by Kiwi Kruzer
No room????
Does not look like that to me...

No there is no room after the FFG's berthed right in front of QM2, the warf turns and changes angle. The FFG's are 138m long and the FFH's about 118m long. Getting in closer the depths are not that great and with the accommodation on the other side space is limited getting a cruise ship further in.

Where the QM2 is right now is the only place a cruise ship can dock.

I believe the Canberra class will be too big for the cruiser wharf and other wharfs near the Captain Cook drydock. With all the ships the RAN has it is too small.

Plus there is the shore power connections to consider when the RAN ships berth. They need priority access.
#58
384 Posts
Joined Jun 2011
I Like the Idea of the cruise lines joining together to buy back the finger wharf, however that is next to impossible.

Is there anyway to extend the Fleet Base East to the East more?
#59
384 Posts
Joined Jun 2011
Also If they were to share it, Would they build a Permanent Cruise terminal there or would be a Marque type thing like you see at Wharf 5 at Barangaroo???
#60
SE Queensland, Australia
5,360 Posts
Joined Oct 2007
Have a look at the satellite view of garden Island here

Once upon a time - Garden Island was indeed an island - you can see the original island with the trees showing at the very northern part of what we now call "Garden Island" . Over the past couple of hundred years, the island was joined to the mainland to create a dockyard. When I was in the navy myself, there was no such thing as a "Fleet base" ( on the western side of Garden Island). The Navy Fleet used to berth inside the Dockyard itself - however with the privatisation of the Dockyard in the late 80's , the powers -to-be decided to separate the two activities (refitting/maintenance of Navy ships and normal Naval weekly "running") and the Fleet Base was built. You can see from the pic what Sutho has been saying about these individual berths being quite small -- big enough for most naval ships , but not very suitable for large cruiseships. On the eastern side of GI, there are no wharves at all.

BTW - the Navy ships that you can see in that pic are around only 130 metres long - Vista class ships are almost 300 metres - Voyager of the Seas Azura and QM2 are even longer. The wharf at the OPT is only 220 metres long.

Personally I can see no place anywhere in Sydney Harbour that would be acceptable to Sydneysiders as an additional cruise terminal, east of the bridge. Nor can I imagine the Federal Authorities agreeing to complicate Naval operations out of the Fleet base.

Barry
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A Blog of our unusual "World Cruise" - Brisbane to Brisbane, Australia - 12 weeks on two different P&O ships, Oriana and Arcadia - with a White Christmas in-between....UK 2010

A review of our 28 day cruise to Tahiti on Pacific Pearl.... Pacific Pearl to Tahiti

Pics of our "3 Queens" cruise with Cunard--May/Jun 2012...Plane, Cunard and train to Germany

Pics of our 14 nights on Voyager of the Seas -- to NZ...On a BIG ship to NZ

A report of the inaugural cruise by Pacific Dawn to Papua New Guinea ports...Pacific Dawn to PNG

Ships sailed on since 2007

P&O Pacific Star
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Cunard Queen Victoria
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Carnival Spirit
Sea Princess
Sun Princess
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