News from Cunard following Bermuda Same Sex Marriage Repeal?

Looking for announcements from Cunard on the state of same sex marriages onboard following Bermuda's recent repeal.

Link to pinknews.uk story on repeal

Sorry to see that :-( I don’t think Cunard saw that one coming as they made quite a big deal of it when it was announced :-(

Very disappointing news. Cunard will probably stay with registering its ship there for convenience sake but its not the right thing to do. Will stay away from Bermuda like the plague. So many other friendlier places to visit.

Sorry for anyone’s plans negatively impacted by this change, however it would appear that the two reasons given for the change of port of registry from Southampton to Hamilton are now moot.

The first was same sex marriage and the second was EU wage laws which will now go away with Brexit.

Same sex marriage only became legal in Bermuda earlier this year, it was the ability to perform any marriage ceremonies that lead to the change originally.

It's still only a Bill not yet law, I'm not sure at what point Cunard would need to make an announcement but I guess they will have to stop at some point and revert back to the Commitment Ceremonies they offered same sex couples previously.

Here's an article from earlier today on the Pink News web site concerning P&O's decision about same sex marriages.

Exclusive: Gay weddings scrapped by P&O Cruises over Bermuda’s anti-gay law

Presumably Cunard will be following suit with a similar decision before too long.

Regards, John

Just saw this article on CNBC which may be on interest.

Cruise line Carnival joins the fight against Bermuda's same-sex marriage ban

Update - Bermuda's Supreme Court has again ruled for same-sex marriage and has overturned the portions of the recent law which made it illegal.

The decision has been stayed for six weeks, in part to give the government time to decide whether to appeal

http://www.royalgazette.com/same-sex-marriage/article/20180606/court-rules-in-favour-of-same-sex-marriage

- Mark

Update - Bermuda's Supreme Court has again ruled for same-sex marriage and has overturned the portions of the recent law which made it illegal.

 

The decision has been stayed for six weeks, in part to give the government time to decide whether to appeal

 

http://www.royalgazette.com/same-sex-marriage/article/20180606/court-rules-in-favour-of-same-sex-marriage

 

- Mark

This should be dealt with by the Bermud’s Government and them alone, if it is what they want so be it.:halo:

This should be dealt with by the Bermud’s Government and them alone, if it is what they want so be it.:halo:

:evilsmile:

Not sure of your intent here. However, as a past Bermuda visitor, I appreciate Carnival's actions to publicize the economic impact of any decision to remove the rights of gay people in their country, and likewise, the impact to the industries which bring them there. Personally, I don't want to spend time and money where, by law, I've been specifically considered less worthy, so Bermuda is off our list until rights are restored (...as I've told Cunard, for what it's worth.)

Personally, I think that some moral suasion is not necessarily a bad thing, but understand and respect the belief otherwise. Analyzing the business and economic impacts of an action are a somewhat different matter.

- Mark

Not sure of your intent here. However, as a past Bermuda visitor, I appreciate Carnival's actions to publicize the economic impact of any decision to remove the rights of gay people in their country, and likewise, the impact to the industries which bring them there. Personally, I don't want to spend time and money where, by law, I've been specifically considered less worthy, so Bermuda is off our list until rights are restored (...as I've told Cunard, for what it's worth.)

 

Personally, I think that some moral suasion is not necessarily a bad thing, but understand and respect the belief otherwise. Analyzing the business and economic impacts of an action are a somewhat different matter.

Bermuda is a beautiful country; I hope they reverse this soon so everyone feels welcome to visit.

Bermuda is a beautiful country; I hope they reverse this soon so everyone feels welcome to visit.

Agreed!

- Mark

Update - Bermuda's Supreme Court has again ruled for same-sex marriage and has overturned the portions of the recent law which made it illegal.

 

The decision has been stayed for six weeks, in part to give the government time to decide whether to appeal

 

http://www.royalgazette.com/same-sex-marriage/article/20180606/court-rules-in-favour-of-same-sex-marriage

 

- Mark

Some good news (maybe?) Mark. Thanks for letting us know. So many re-positioning TAs stop in Bermuda.

News update. The Bermuda government has decided to appeal the ruling which would have reinstated same sex marriage. They did not need to appeal this.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/latestnews/Bermuda_Gov%26%238217;t_files_appeal_against_same-sex_marriage_ruling?profile=1373

Boo! Hiss!

Thanks for keeping us updated, Mark.

Let's hope Cunard decides to register elsewhere.

It is exceedingly unlikely that Cunard would switch Flag State Registry over this moral/ethical issue.

Registering ships under a foreign flag of convenience has implications for Port State control, ship safety regulations, employment rules and wages, ratification of maritime conventions, environmental controls (SOLAS, MARPOL, STCW etc).

Bermuda ticks virtually all of the boxes from a safety perspective and prudent maritime business protocols, and additionally allows the ship's Master to perform marriages at sea under their jurisprudence (Malta is another flag state that allows this, as does Japan for Japanese nationals).

This capability is quite a lucrative feature within the commercial passenger ship market, and the potential same-sex marriage market is not insignificant ... but would it be the worth tens of millions of dollars for the Carnival Group's 10 cruise brands to up stakes and switch to an alternative regulatory regime?

So what can Cunard do? (i.e. what can pax encourage Carnival Corporation & PLC to do?)

- presumably Carnival is a significant player in Bermuda's (relatively) meagre economy, so they could bring public and private pressure on the Bermudan gov't to back off this issue. Even the effort would likely ease the pressure brought to bear on Carnival from its client base.

- Captains can presumably still perform "commitment ceremonies" which lack legal standing. This is the situation within the vast majority of flag states. Clearly though, this is far from equal treatment under the law.

- Presumably, in order for a Captain to perform a legal marriage at sea, (s)he must also posses standing as a judge, a justice of the peace, a minister, or some other form of recognized officiant such as a Notary Public. With such standing in local jurisdictions through which the ships pass (i.e. NY State, UK, Canada, etc.), legal marriages might (MIGHT) be permitted within those jurisdictions.

At the very least passengers should voice their feelings to Cunard and to parent Carnival.

Boycotting would be a personal choice, but would likely not be a practical option for most individuals who have already paid a substantial non-refundable deposit. Withdrawing future business would be more effective, but only if accompanied by an explanatory note.

And what do the competitors offer? How many of them provide legal marriages at sea for passengers?

I agree that it would be highly unlikely for Cunard to again reflag their fleet and pay the substantial cost to do so (as well as to meet whatever requirements exist for the new flag).

However, as is discussed in one of the linked article at the start of this thread, Carnival Corp have been vocal in their support for equal marriage and with their displeasure about the new law and have been trying to publicly use their clout in support of same sex marriage and to make sure that Bermuda is aware of the economic impact.

The fact that the government has decided to appeal the ruling indicates that Carnival hasn't been successful (yet) in that regard. Personally, my hope is that their Supreme Court restates their earlier ruling to overturn the ban.

As to boycott, not surprisingly, there have been scattered calls for one. Personally, I usually don't support them, primarily because they usually fail, but in a different light, I have no desire at this time, to visit or spend money in Bermuda (or Russia). But that's a personal choice, a different thing. I suspect many feel similarly.

As for other lines and approaches toward same sex celebrations, I'm not a TA and don't have complete knowledge, but in the US, I've only heard of onboard marriages by the captain by Princess, Cunard, and I assume P&O (all flagged in Bermuda). While I've not heard of it, I know that many ships are registered in Panama, and that there were recent court rulings which have spread same sex marriage throughout much of South and Central America. Whether that provides a future for non-Bermudan weddings by captains is another question. I've not seen discussion of such a thing.

Before the court ruling, and when same sex marriage was only legal in certain US states, it was common to celebrate marriages while the ship was in port in a jurisdiction which allowed them, using a locally-empowered officiant. I would assume that remains the most common approach.

I haven't seen any news when a ruling is expected. Of course, I'll update the group if I learn more.

- Mark

More news on the Bermuda government's appeal of their supreme court ruling which threw out the law prohibiting same sex marriage. The case will be heard November 7 to 9.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/08/27/bermuda-court-to-hear-government-appeal-against-equal-marriage/

Notably, they recently celebrated Pride in Hamilton, with Cunard represented as a major sponsor.

- Mark

I couldn't in good conscience disembark in Bermuda under these circumstances knowing I am considered "less than" by law. May their Supreme Court and pressure from Carnival and others lead to a better human rights outcome. It's a beautiful island otherwise.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

UPDATE - The court has again rejected efforts to make same sex marriage illegal and has denied an stay to delay the decision, so it's legal again at this time.

However, the government can appeal to (and ask for a stay from) a higher court, the Privy Council.

http://www.royalgazette.com/court/article/20181123/government-loses-same-sex-battle

-Mark

Here's an idea ... if Bermuda fails to act responsibly then why not re-flag all Carnival's fleets under Canadian flag?
Regrettably we still fall short in certain respects, but we pride ourselves in being LGBT(etc.)-friendly, and in recognizing Gay Rights as fundamental Human Rights.

Yes, I know it is totally impractical for other reasons (crewing, port state control, etc.)

But we would certainly welcome the Cunard Queens, as well as their sister cruise lines. The red Maple Leaf would look mighty fine adorning their sterns.

Thanks for the update, Mark!

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 4:43 PM, MarkBearSF said:

However, the government can appeal to (and ask for a stay from) a higher court, the Privy Council.

The Privy Council in this case, is the Privy Council of the United Kingdom. Mostly made up of senior politicians from the UK and a few judges.  Don't think there is much, if any, chance of a successful appeal from the Bermudan government against this same-sex marriage ruling.

Hopefully the Bermudan government won't try and that Cunard will be offering marriage ceremonies for all, once again, very soon.

Thank you for your clarification on the Privy Council.
However, given their actions thus far, I can't imagine that they would not appeal, how dire their chances.

Fingers crossed for Cunard to offer same sex marriage soon.