Endeavor - any news

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#21
At 35,000 feet
9,313 Posts
Joined Mar 2006
Originally posted by BWIVince
That's not great, but that's a universal plague among any brand in this industry in expansion mode at this point. If it's more than 24 months out, either the scope, dates, OR details of a project at a rapidly growing company WILL change sometime in the next 18 months.
Perhaps this is evidence that the "expansion mode" is either too great, too complex or that the company is ill prepared for the extent of their expansion plans. I differ on your use of a Rosewood hotel to explain away the Crystal modus operandi. First, as you know, many hotels are franchises. Thus, Rosewood's control over new properties may not be great - they may not be their own project (and I merely conjecture without actual knowledge). However, Crystal has been a series of failed timelines under their own control, thus endangering the trust factor with its customers.

PR stunts like the United States are one kind of thing to hold them accountable for, but when signed contracts don't materialize on ship options referenced in PR releases, that's every day stuff there.
When a brand has been hemorhaging trust, the last thing they should be doing is pushing more vaporware. And when you don't have those signed contracts, it's not every day stuff...it's vaporware until the paper gets signed. Or are you telling me that this is SO standard, and thus we should never believe what comes out in a press release or CEO announcement? Or we should take everything with a grain of salt and just be prepared to be disappointed?

Then, you say the United States is something they should be held accountable for. Does that mean that non-PR stunts (aka actual operations) aren't due accountabiity?

Crystal has options for 3 expedition ships, and has announced intent to build all 3. That's not a firm order though, and lots of companies have had options to built ships they announced that never finalized for several reasons. So I think there are some things more worthy of criticism, and some things that are more customary.
They also announced intent to run air cruises. How many other "intents" can be cancelled, delayed or modified out of recognition until the brand becomes, not a "lifestyle brand" but an afterthought in the minds of consumers?

Under promise and over deliver. Advice that serves companies well across America. Guess those words don't apply once you head into Miami-Dade.
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"Anybody who believes they can out-think the airlines' revenue/yield management computer algorithms is, in my view, delusional." -- Gardyloo

"It doesn't really make a blind bit of difference what other people are paying since they're traveling from different airports, on different days, at different times of the year." -- fbgd

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My standard response to all the questions of "Can I make that early flight home?" or "Can I take a bag that is oversized without paying?":
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#22
Maine
1,313 Posts
Joined Jun 2007
Thanks for the update. As I said, or tried to , I found it very strange that there was nothing on the Crystal web site about the expedition ships or type of cruises at all - other than media center type original announcements. I'd expect something like - coming in 2019 xxxx.

I'll say, although if I remember some think we should use the phrase, time will tell.
#24
1,483 Posts
Joined Jun 2002
Originally posted by ctjon
Thanks for the update. As I said, or tried to , I found it very strange that there was nothing on the Crystal web site about the expedition ships or type of cruises at all - other than media center type original announcements. I'd expect something like - coming in 2019 xxxx.

I'll say, although if I remember some think we should use the phrase, time will tell.
And in the meantime bookings are going to other cruise lines as even if time will tell, the time may not be when it is supposed to be.
#25
88,394 Posts
Joined Jul 2000
Originally posted by cruisr
And in the meantime bookings are going to other cruise lines as even if time will tell, the time may not be when it is supposed to be.
While some go to other lines there are plenty of people who sail Crystal who came over from other lines. Some even post here.
#26
At 35,000 feet
9,313 Posts
Joined Mar 2006
Originally posted by Keith1010
While some go to other lines there are plenty of people who sail Crystal who came over from other lines. Some even post here.

I would be willing to wager significant sums that the net balance is an outflow FROM Crystal to other lines. It's not a matter of how many people come over to Crystal but what the NET numbers are. That's the key.


Unfortunately, the only measure we might have is the passenger counts on the various voyages. From my personal sample of Post-Edie sailings vs Pre, I'd say that counts are down. Toss in my conversations with past Crystal loyalists who have moved on to greener pastures and it's not an encouraging situation.
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"Government Certified Expert"

"Anybody who believes they can out-think the airlines' revenue/yield management computer algorithms is, in my view, delusional." -- Gardyloo

"It doesn't really make a blind bit of difference what other people are paying since they're traveling from different airports, on different days, at different times of the year." -- fbgd

"Daddy he hates airplanes, Baby loves to fly. The Lady wants to know the reason why." -- Michael Franks

My standard response to all the questions of "Can I make that early flight home?" or "Can I take a bag that is oversized without paying?":
"Well, you gotta ask yourself....do you feel lucky? Well do you?" -- Inspector Harry Callahan
#27
88,394 Posts
Joined Jul 2000
Originally posted by FlyerTalker
I would be willing to wager significant sums that the net balance is an outflow FROM Crystal to other lines. It's not a matter of how many people come over to Crystal but what the NET numbers are. That's the key.


Unfortunately, the only measure we might have is the passenger counts on the various voyages. From my personal sample of Post-Edie sailings vs Pre, I'd say that counts are down. Toss in my conversations with past Crystal loyalists who have moved on to greener pastures and it's not an encouraging situation.
I am not sure why you are so sure.

Since the time that Crystal implemented inclusive (yes I know before Genting bought them) on each of our sailings I have met many first time Crystal Cruises and several of which who booked future Crystal Cruises while on board. And with more port intensive itineraries and several shorter cruises I have been on sailings where half or more of the ship have been first time Crystal Cruisers.

If I think of all the people we know some have jumped ship but not that many.

From my personal experience the sailings I have been on overall have actually had a higher count with many of the changes and that includes the way the sailings are marketed.

That is not to say all sailings are full because that is certainly not the case nor has it been the case.

So maybe we must sail on different sailings and have different friends/ fellow cruisers who we know.

I think these days you will see more people trying different lines then maybe in years past. I also believe you see more people cruising then ever before.

Keith
#28
2,961 Posts
Joined Feb 2007
Originally posted by FlyerTalker
Perhaps this is evidence that the "expansion mode" is either too great, too complex or that the company is ill prepared for the extent of their expansion plans. I differ on your use of a Rosewood hotel to explain away the Crystal modus operandi. First, as you know, many hotels are franchises. Thus, Rosewood's control over new properties may not be great - they may not be their own project (and I merely conjecture without actual knowledge). However, Crystal has been a series of failed timelines under their own control, thus endangering the trust factor with its customers.

When a brand has been hemorhaging trust, the last thing they should be doing is pushing more vaporware. And when you don't have those signed contracts, it's not every day stuff...it's vaporware until the paper gets signed. Or are you telling me that this is SO standard, and thus we should never believe what comes out in a press release or CEO announcement? Or we should take everything with a grain of salt and just be prepared to be disappointed?

Then, you say the United States is something they should be held accountable for. Does that mean that non-PR stunts (aka actual operations) aren't due accountabiity?

They also announced intent to run air cruises. How many other "intents" can be cancelled, delayed or modified out of recognition until the brand becomes, not a "lifestyle brand" but an afterthought in the minds of consumers?

Under promise and over deliver. Advice that serves companies well across America. Guess those words don't apply once you head into Miami-Dade.
1) I'm not sure you understood my Rosewood example at all... If you're a hotel management company, and you fail to start managing a property you've been marketing for the past 2 years, how is that not a "broken promise" in marketing something that never materialized, as people are complaining here? Sure, there are other parties involved, but I don't see anyone giving Edie a pass on that fine print exception either.

Side note -- some of the properties Rosewood manages are owned by another arm of the same company, and under NYK Crystal leased its ships, so even the business models aren't as different as you might think.

2) "It's vaporware until the paper gets signed" is really easy to say, but in an industry that sells as far out as you can imagine, what do you consider the signature on for something to be real? We sign hotel contracts every day for hotels that haven't even broken ground yet. Most of my clients are working on their 2022-2023 hotel contracts right now, if they don't already have them done. Can you begin to imagine how many times the dates, scope or details of an addition, renovation, or especially new construction change over that time frame?

In my example, I was responding to the comment about the trust "all" of the announced expedition ships would be built. I don't think not exercising all of the order options is considered a ding. Princess and other lines have announced ship orders with options that were not exercised. Airlines, the same way -- the headline is usually the number of planes in the AGREEMENT, not the number of firm orders.

3) Did I say no one should ever be held accountable? Please don't put words in my mouth. I used the United States announcement to try to illustrate the difference between a usual and an unusual change of plans. An option not being exercised, IMHO, doesn't carry the same weight of "promise broken" as announcing a ship returning to service that was a technical long shot at best. (Yes, the announcement qualified the return to service pending the assessment of the ship, but the plan was announced at the time it was solely for PR value.)

Vince
#29
At 35,000 feet
9,313 Posts
Joined Mar 2006
Originally posted by BWIVince
3) Did I say no one should ever be held accountable? Please don't put words in my mouth. I used the United States announcement to try to illustrate the difference between a usual and an unusual change of plans.
No words being put. You wrote:

PR stunts like the United States are one kind of thing to hold them accountable for, but when signed contracts don't materialize on ship options referenced in PR releases, that's every day stuff there.
Sure seemed to me that you acknowledged accountability for the former case, but seemed to dismiss it in the latter. Maybe I just don't think that your description of "everyday stuff there" equals "accountability".
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"Government Certified Expert"

"Anybody who believes they can out-think the airlines' revenue/yield management computer algorithms is, in my view, delusional." -- Gardyloo

"It doesn't really make a blind bit of difference what other people are paying since they're traveling from different airports, on different days, at different times of the year." -- fbgd

"Daddy he hates airplanes, Baby loves to fly. The Lady wants to know the reason why." -- Michael Franks

My standard response to all the questions of "Can I make that early flight home?" or "Can I take a bag that is oversized without paying?":
"Well, you gotta ask yourself....do you feel lucky? Well do you?" -- Inspector Harry Callahan
#30
2,961 Posts
Joined Feb 2007
Originally posted by FlyerTalker
Sure seemed to me that you acknowledged accountability for the former case, but seemed to dismiss it in the latter. Maybe I just don't think that your description of "everyday stuff there" equals "accountability".
If you say so. I mean just about every hotel chain, cruise line and airline of any magnitude in the industry has a board of directors, right? It's almost like they understand context better than those of us posting on an internet discussion forum.

Vince
#31
Sydney, Australia
4,762 Posts
Joined Dec 2012
What's the latest planned launch date for Endeavor?
I read in today's newspaper that it's due to launch in 2018 - I think the journalist picked up an old release with that date in it but it prompted me to think about the last date we got from Crystal for this venture to be launched
#32
1,483 Posts
Joined Jun 2002
Originally posted by Bodogbodog
What's the latest planned launch date for Endeavor?
I read in today's newspaper that it's due to launch in 2018 - I think the journalist picked up an old release with that date in it but it prompted me to think about the last date we got from Crystal for this venture to be launched

Well, it was noted up thread that the top producing TAs were told that Itineraries and bookings would be available this fall. Today is the first day of fall. I guess they will have until Dec 21 to make that statement true.
#33
1,972 Posts
Joined May 2000
Originally posted by cruisr
Well, it was noted up thread that the top producing TAs were told that Itineraries and bookings would be available this fall. Today is the first day of fall. I guess they will have until Dec 21 to make that statement true.
I think we have to give new leadership some slack. It seems unreasonable to hold brand new leadership to deadlines announced by previous management. Previous management was (to my mind) quite liberal in promising this or that and not delivering. Let's give the new leadership some slack as it sorts things out. I will try to refrain from saying, "But Crystal said last year that such-and-such would be available now."
#34
At 35,000 feet
9,313 Posts
Joined Mar 2006
Originally posted by Observer
I think we have to give new leadership some slack. It seems unreasonable to hold brand new leadership to deadlines announced by previous management. Previous management was (to my mind) quite liberal in promising this or that and not delivering. Let's give the new leadership some slack as it sorts things out. I will try to refrain from saying, "But Crystal said last year that such-and-such would be available now."
Completely reasonable, and I heartily concur.

Maybe in the "free advice" thread, we should make the suggestion that all of the previously announced timetables should be revisited, and that new, realistic dates be provided. If only to work on rebuilding the trust that's be squandered.
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"Government Certified Expert"

"Anybody who believes they can out-think the airlines' revenue/yield management computer algorithms is, in my view, delusional." -- Gardyloo

"It doesn't really make a blind bit of difference what other people are paying since they're traveling from different airports, on different days, at different times of the year." -- fbgd

"Daddy he hates airplanes, Baby loves to fly. The Lady wants to know the reason why." -- Michael Franks

My standard response to all the questions of "Can I make that early flight home?" or "Can I take a bag that is oversized without paying?":
"Well, you gotta ask yourself....do you feel lucky? Well do you?" -- Inspector Harry Callahan
#35
Sydney, Australia
4,762 Posts
Joined Dec 2012
My question on launch date is entirely “innocent” and seeking an update - not looking to pass judgement on the previous regime - I was just surprised to see 2018 mentioned when we’ve seen nothing about the design or build commencing.
So when would they need to start the construction for a 2018 launch?
#36
2,961 Posts
Joined Feb 2007
Originally posted by Bodogbodog
My question on launch date is entirely “innocent” and seeking an update - not looking to pass judgement on the previous regime - I was just surprised to see 2018 mentioned when we’ve seen nothing about the design or build commencing.
So when would they need to start the construction for a 2018 launch?
I haven't seen much in terms of timeline (I think I saw 2019 mentioned last, but I'm working from memory), but in terms of build commencing, I have seen a couple random press releases from suppliers saying they had been contracted for components of the yachts. Interestingly, MV Wertfen itself put out a press release this month about a new plant for stateroom prefabrication in which they mention they have started training and pilot unit production already, and among the first units delivered will be Endeavor's crew cabins in March. https://www.mv-werften.com/en/green-...ts-production/

I don't know how fast or on-track this project is, but something is moving on it.

Vince
#37
UK - Berkshire
129 Posts
Joined Feb 2010
Originally posted by BWIVince
I haven't seen much in terms of timeline (I think I saw 2019 mentioned last, but I'm working from memory), but in terms of build commencing, I have seen a couple random press releases from suppliers saying they had been contracted for components of the yachts. Interestingly, MV Wertfen itself put out a press release this month about a new plant for stateroom prefabrication in which they mention they have started training and pilot unit production already, and among the first units delivered will be Endeavor's crew cabins in March. https://www.mv-werften.com/en/green-...ts-production/

I don't know how fast or on-track this project is, but something is moving on it.

Vince
To go rather clumsily OT - or at least to merge 2 threads - can I ask whether the current changes to suites being made to Symphony have been made easier by virtue of that ship not having been fitted with prefabricated rooms. (or at least I assume that they weren't prefabricated in the 'modern' sense) The pictures of demolished rooms on the other thread seem to suggest that the ship was constructed with an empty space within which partitions were formed to create rooms? If I am correct, will that mean it will be much harder to make changes in 20 years time when we all want to double - again - the amount of space we each get?!
#38
2,961 Posts
Joined Feb 2007
Originally posted by Noggins
To go rather clumsily OT - or at least to merge 2 threads - can I ask whether the current changes to suites being made to Symphony have been made easier by virtue of that ship not having been fitted with prefabricated rooms. (or at least I assume that they weren't prefabricated in the 'modern' sense) The pictures of demolished rooms on the other thread seem to suggest that the ship was constructed with an empty space within which partitions were formed to create rooms? If I am correct, will that mean it will be much harder to make changes in 20 years time when we all want to double - again - the amount of space we each get?!
The technology has changed a bit, but Symphony was actually built with pre-fab cabins. Kværner at the time had a division much like what MV Werften is setting up that just produced the cabin units to be loaded in.

For demolition, I don’t think it much matters whether something was pre-fab or not, it seems to clear out quickly either way. What impressed me was the partial refit of the pre-fab bathrooms they did 10+ years ago, where they just replaced the fixtures on one wall and adapted the plumbing, while leaving everything else undisturbed.

It’s hard making the cabins fractionally larger after they’re built, and you have to fabricate in smaller units to load in most cases like this, but I think as long as you’re engineering 2>1 or 3>2 units together it’s managable.

Vince