Woolloomooloo hullabaloo: Locals don't want cruise liners at Garden Island

Apparently its going to take a billion dollars to turn the Opera House into a decent Opera House other than that is a great building...I've an idea it would make a jim dandy cruise terminal instead.:p They could use it and maybe the Quay and put the ferries on the other side of the bridge. (just kidding).

I was in the Navy and know the wharf well. Unfortunately the lengths of the piers are not long enough to continually support large ships. The exact position where the QM2 docks is the only location on Garden Island that a cruise ship can dock. When the Canberra class ships arrive they cant fit anywhere else.

From what I have seen in the past the Navy has declined requests in the past when Celebrity Millennium had to anchor in the harbour. That was at the same time a small Crystal Cruises ship docked at Circular Quay when there were berths at Darling Harbour that the Crystal ship could easily get to. It was suggested in some media at the time that the NSW goverment may have been accepting higher cash from Crystal to use Circular Quay when other ships were put out.

The QM2 is large enough to dock at Circular Quay. Cunard should just give up sending the two Queens to Sydney at the same time.

I think the only real possibility is to renovate the ex HMAS Platypus base and use it for ships.

From what I have seen in the past the Navy has declined requests in the past when Celebrity Millennium had to anchor in the harbour. That was at the same time a small Crystal Cruises ship docked at Circular Quay when there were berths at Darling Harbour that the Crystal ship could easily get to. It was suggested in some media at the time that the NSW goverment may have been accepting higher cash from Crystal to use Circular Quay when other ships were put out.

Celebrity Millennium had to dock in the harbour as they left their bookings way too late. It's a case of first in, best dressed and Celebrity had a number of issues that season as they struggled to reschedule. It had been made comparatively late and they weren't so familiar with the local market. They made some assumptions that didn't turn out right. They haven't repeated their mistake since!

Celebrity Millennium had to dock in the harbour as they left their bookings way too late. It's a case of first in, best dressed and Celebrity had a number of issues that season as they struggled to reschedule. It had been made comparatively late and they weren't so familiar with the local market. They made some assumptions that didn't turn out right. They haven't repeated their mistake since!

What about Aurora not getting the wharf first up as well. I remember that was the year Aurora broke down on the way to New Zealand. I think it was Crystal Serenity at Circular Quay and Aurora and Millennium anchored in the harbour. Crystal Serenity eventually moved on and Aurora got a dock.

What left allot of people wondering is why didnt Crystal Serenity be forced into Darling Harbour. P&O are not ones to stuff up booking its ships on World Cruises. The Navy refused all requests that year.

What that situation has proved is that Sydney definately needs another cruise ship terminal east of the harbour bridge. Its very clear that Garden Island cannot and will not be turned into a cruise terminal unless of course the Navy is relocated to Newcastle or Wollongong.

Sutho

I agree with some things you are saying - but not necessarily with others. I think you are assuming a lot regarding the berthing incidents you are talking about. I am sure that none of us here know the true situation. It could just as easily be that Chrystal booked OPT first - or were indeed prepared to pay more for it in a bidding war :) P&O are known for organising their World Cruises well - but they are also known for trying to save a dollar wherever they can :rolleyes:

Before even thinking about new terminals for Sydney - firstly the authorities who would have to pay for it ( via our taxes) would have to think about it's purpose. At the moment, the "long term users" ie P&O AUD and Princess are (or will be ) catered for by the permanent terminal to be built at White Bay (it's suitability for that is another matter for discussion). The rest of the ships expected over the next couple of seasons are merely "blow ins" - nobody is going to fund a multi-million $ terminal to satisfy the passing whims of a bunch of modern day carpetbaggers - especially in these times when International funding is drying up.

It is more important to ensure that the permanent supporters of cruising in Australia - P&O and Princess have everything needed to further the industry in a sustainable way. The visitors will have to scrap over what's left.

Barry

Sutho

 

 

The rest of the ships expected over the next couple of seasons are merely "blow ins" - nobody is going to fund a multi-million $ terminal to satisfy the passing whims of a bunch of modern day carpetbaggers - especially in these times when International funding is drying up.

 

It is more important to ensure that the permanent supporters of cruising in Australia - P&O and Princess have everything needed to further the industry in a sustainable way. The visitors will have to scrap over what's left.

 

Barry

Barry

How could you call Royal Carribean/Celebrity a "blow in" ???? They have got three ships operating out of Sydney this year with over thirty"visits" and next year they will have more ships and I think more than forty or fifty"visits" and I dont think any will fit under the bridge (as also the Carnival ships will not and not to mention the Diamond Princess) so just to take care of the "permanent supporters" doesnt really wash. Perhaps as I mentioned in an earlier post if they were to flick some of the retaurantsand upgrade the OPT then the this may alleviate the problem a somewhat. Given the restaurants would pay a fair bit in rent( that only benefits whoever runs the OPT) surely thousands of extra tourists spending their money in Sydney would be more beneficial to the overall community.

The Darling Harbour side poses a massive problem as I think the Carnival Australia group said they do not want a cruise terminal that side of the bridge. It is inevitable that the day will come that P&O Australia will have ships too big to fit under the bridge. I remember a news report where P&O Australia stated something like they do not support Darling Harbour investments as the ships are only getting bigger.

Already October and November 2012 is almost completely booked with cruise ship visits at Circular Quay. All of the ships there bring in the tourist dollars, people travel here to catch them, they book hotels, spend money in the restaurants. Its a big money boom for Sydney and Australia.

By the looks of it the reality of the situation is that the cruise boom has started and we will be getting bigger ships. If something is not done about a terminal then Sydney will miss out.

A quick internet search reveals the Sydney Harbour Bridge air draft is 52m. Any cruise ship taller than that cannot go under. Oriana's air draft is 54.8m, the Sun class can just manage to fit under due to their squashed funnel.

As said Rhapsody of the Seas wont fit under, neither will Radiance of the Seas. Carnival Spirit wont fit under. The Costa ships to visit here will not fit under, the Celebrity ships wont fit under, the HAL's Vista class wont fit under. The old P&O Canberra did not fit under. Even the Titanic was built taller than the Sydney Harbour Bridge would allow under.

My prediction is that in 10 years time P&O Australia will not have their current fleet and that their fleet then will be too big to fit under the bridge. With only one passenger terminal east of the bridge it is inevitable that there is going to be serious cruise ship berthing problems for Sydney that will effect us. Fleet Base East will be out as there is no terminal even though the dock was designed for high intense traffic for loading supplies, transfer of personell, parking of vehicles in a one way traffic movement using both gates. There is even an overflow parking area near the medical centre main gate. The Navy will not give up their docks for cruise ships. (Although the idea of building a cruise terminal there with docking fees going directly to the Navy might appeal to them).

Interesting read from today's CW.... :)

Carnival Commodore is confident

Ann Sherry is edging closer to her two career-defining goals of shared use of Garden Island and 1 million passengers by 2020.

INTRODUCED by Carnival Australia’s new corporate affairs director and Partnership Summit MC Peter Taylor as “Commodore” Ann Sherry, the CEO was upbeat about the local cruise industry’s progress.

“We’ve worked together to make cruising a state of mind – it’s almost become a mass movement,” she said.

According to Sherry, Australia can continue its world-leading growth, which last year grew at a faster rate than in the US, UK and Germany.

“Merely equalling their market penetration is not our end goal – the sky’s the limit,” she said.

Sherry said her goal for Australian cruise passenger numbers to reach 1 million by 2020 would be achieved “more than likely much earlier than that”.

Sydney’s infrastructure problems were also looking closer to a positive outcome.

Although she defined the progress as “glacial”, Sherry believes next year will be the year that the Australian Navy agrees to allow cruise ships to dock at its base on Garden Island.

“I am pleased to report progress in relation to Sydney, with White Bay in the west, an upgraded Overseas Passenger Terminal in the east, and hopefully shared use of Garden Island – we wait for that with much

anticipation.”

Speaking privately to media on Tuesday afternoon, Sherry said she had two main objectives for 2012.

“We’re seeing greater confidence in agents selling cruises and selling the right cruises, so the first thing I want to see is more cruising sold better by more agents.

“And number two – to sort Garden Island out.”

If a new cruise terminal is ever built in Sydney, my pick is that it will be in Botany Bay, alongside the airport somewhere, with its own designated access .

Sydney Harbour will be useless for the servicing of the huge ships that are to come .

Sydney Harbour will then only be available for the wealthy , who can afford to cruise in on the smaller ships that Sydney Harbour can handle.

Davod

There is a reason that Botany Bay has never been developed as a port as such - ever since convict times. It is quite shallow and has sandy shores all around it. I am not sure that there would even be a place for a cruise terminal in Botany bay anywhere - have a look at Google maps to see what I mean. I know some large oil tankers go in there - but the whole foreshore is basically either industrial or sandy beach .

Barry

If a new cruise terminal is ever built in Sydney, my pick is that it will be in Botany Bay, alongside the airport somewhere, with its own designated access .

Sydney Harbour will be useless for the servicing of the huge ships that are to come .

Sydney Harbour will then only be available for the wealthy , who can afford to cruise in on the smaller ships that Sydney Harbour can handle.

 

There is already a container port there which can handle large container ships. If a terminal were to be built in its place then the entire port would have to be relocated to Newcastle or Wollongong and transfer it by rail to Sydney.

I believe the RAN submarines have authorisation to enter Botany Bay submerged as the depths at the centre allow them to go under ships. I have even heard that getting a sub close to the airport is good for their training.

There is already a container port there which can handle large container ships. If a terminal were to be built in its place then the entire port would have to be relocated to Newcastle or Wollongong and transfer it by rail to Sydney.

Not in its place, but as an expansion. They're already expanding it aside from this.

Not as attractive as Sydney Harbour, though that's not different from many other worldwide ports being amongst the industrial traffic.

Personally, if harbour land is so attractive, the cruise lines could band together and buy back the Finger Wharf. Great location, very convenient for transfers and access, and established facilities.

Of course, it's not as cheap as what they want which is the government to do by paying the upfront cost and they just pay berthing fees. But then you can only take what you're given...

There is already a container port there which can handle large container ships. If a terminal were to be built in its place then the entire port would have to be relocated to Newcastle or Wollongong and transfer it by rail to Sydney.

 

I believe the RAN submarines have authorisation to enter Botany Bay submerged as the depths at the centre allow them to go under ships. I have even heard that getting a sub close to the airport is good for their training.

As an ex-RAN submariner myself, I have extreme difficulty believing what you have said . The keel of an old Oberon boat is at about 16 metres at periscope depth. :) Don't know about the Collins class - but would suspect it to be similar.

"Botany Bay has a roughly circular shape of 6-7 km diameter and natural water depths that generally are less than 5 m but reach 10 m at the entrance and locally have been enhanced by dredging to 20 m.b.s.l.(metres below sea level). "

Interesting study of Botany bay here http://www.precisioninfo.com/rivers_org/au/archive/?doc_id=26

of course, with enough money , I guess that ANYTHING can be done :)

It is interesting to see that the Carnival CEO seems so positive about the joint sharing of GI - we will have to wait and see what happens.

Barry

 

Of course, it's not as cheap as what they want which is the government to do by paying the upfront cost and they just pay berthing fees.

You have hit the nail on the head here !! :)

Barry

As an ex-RAN submariner myself, I have extreme difficulty believing what you have said . The keel of an old Oberon boat is at about 16 metres at periscope depth. :) Don't know about the Collins class - but would suspect it to be similar.

 

"Botany Bay has a roughly circular shape of 6-7 km diameter and natural water depths that generally are less than 5 m but reach 10 m at the entrance and locally have been enhanced by dredging to 20 m.b.s.l.(metres below sea level). "

 

Interesting study of Botany bay here http://www.precisioninfo.com/rivers_org/au/archive/?doc_id=26

 

of course, with enough money , I guess that ANYTHING can be done :)

 

It is interesting to see that the Carnival CEO seems so positive about the joint sharing of GI - we will have to wait and see what happens.

 

 

Barry

Ok I heard the Bay was 160m deep in parts. I only heard that they could when I did CSO-U training at Watson I vaguely remember the subject being brought up. Also on the CASEX every time we operated with the subs there was always an emphasis on focusing on the coast for hiding areas.

Though it has been known to happen in the Navy where someone will tell you something can happen when it cant.

Though it has been known to happen in the Navy where someone will tell you something can happen when it cant.

:):) True!!! - but maybe not any worse than anywhere else. I don't listen to half what I am told and ignore the other half!! :)

Barry

2013 should get interesting. Sydney ports is publishing HAL's Oosterdam to dock at wharf 5 Barangaroo. Only one problem - it cant fit under the Harbour Bridge! Its a Vista class ship and too tall to go under.

I found a link about Botany bay depths http://bonzle.com/c/a?a=p&p=280396&cmd=sp

One thing I know for sure is that if these cruise ships keep coming with more intensity then Sydney harbour is not going to be able to accommodate them all with one wharf east of the bridge.

That link is for the Botany Bay wide FAD, not for Botany Bay itself. It is for the area offshore from Botany Bay , which of course is very deep.

Barry

Sounds like the government needs to try and find Australia's answer to Port Everglades and fast!

In the autumn 2011 edition of Shipping Australia Limited,

http://www.shippingaustralia.com.au/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/ShippingAut2011.pdf

Gavin Smith from RCCL talks about having a berth for the cruise ships at Port Botany. He writes that Sydney Harbour be used for visiting ships, whilst the local ships operate out of Port Botany.

One thing I know for sure is that if these cruise ships keep coming with more intensity then Sydney harbour is not going to be able to accommodate them all with one wharf east of the bridge.

I really can't see them coming "with more intensity" with things as they stand. Demand isn't strong enough to warrant an increase, it's at the borderline now.

What my guess is that in ten years time P&O Australia will not have their current fleet and it is likely that they will have ships that cannot fit under the harbour bridge.

In ten years time the original Grand Princess will be closing in on 25 years old. Princess dont normally keep ships that old and if precedence is anything to go off then we could be in line for that.....probably wishfull thinking.

My point is that if P&O Australia ever get a fleet that cannot fit under the bridge then it is big problems for Sydney and the cruise industry down here.

Heres the answer...Build this in the middle of the harbour and have a tunnel to the shore.:D:D

LOL! Where did you find that, David? Is it an architect's dream????