Infinity Going To The Dogs?

When a person has a vision impairment and is able to take their service dog to the appropriate place to go potty, there is absolutley no reason that a person who has an emotional support animal can't do the same thing.

People who do not have a legitimate reason to have a support pet onboard and just buy a vest to pass it off, really make me mad. :mad:

Personally, I understand that each of 'us' have our definition of what a service animal is to look like, act like and specific conditions under which they need to be seen and/or heard.

Would the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) apply to a Maltese Registered Vessel (any X ship) taking on passengers in the US and operating primarily in international and non-us waters?

Serious question. My instinct says no, considering in the aviation industry foreign airlines can impose stricter requirements on service animals than US airlines even if they're flying to/from the US.

Please understand I'm not opposed to real service dogs but the situation with so-called support dogs is getting out of control.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this... there are service dogs and then there are support dogs. Service dogs are bred or selected and extensively trained. The person who is matched to the dog also needs training. Support dogs are pets that are deemed to provide a "service" to their owner. They might help with depression or social anxiety, for example. But they are NOT service dogs. All it takes to get your dog labelled as a support dog is a doctor's note. I know someone who did this so she could have her dog in a "no dogs allowed" apartment building. Her doctor said the dog provided "emotional support".

Support dogs don't have special training. They are pets. And as pets, their behavior is only as good as their owners trained them. Anyone who would falsely label their dog necessary for support in order to have their dog where others are not allowed, probably isn't going to spend much time on social skills training... if you get my meaning.

Would the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) apply to a Maltese Registered Vessel (any X ship) taking on passengers in the US and operating primarily in international and non-us waters?

 

Serious question. My instinct says no, considering in the aviation industry foreign airlines can impose stricter requirements on service animals than US airlines even if they're flying to/from the US.

Yes, the major cruise lines are covered by the ADA.

Yes, the major cruise lines are covered by the ADA.

Interesting.

I did some more reading and found the Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line Ltd.* judgement which deals with the Title III elements of the ADA¶ and their applicability to Cruise Lines. Interesting read and despite the judgement still leaves us some very interesting legal quirks. Ultimately, the court of appeals decision (siding with the cruise lines) was reversed and there are obligations which can be imposed on lines with regard to the ADA.

However, I think there is a lot open for interpretation still and we cannot make a blanket statement that the ADA applies in full and without question. I am not aware of any other jurisprudence dealing with these issues.

* Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line Ltd. 545 U.S. 119 (2005)

¶ Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), 104 Stat. 353, 42 U. S. C. § 12181 et seq.

Interesting, this is from Celebrity's website, but it seems they don't abide by it, based on reports of this dog growling, barking and doing his business outside the relief area :

Guests are responsible for the behavior or damage caused by their service dog. A cleaning fee may be charged to the guest's shipboard account. If the service dog's behavior creates a fundamental alteration or a direct threat to safety, the dog may be denied boarding or removed from the ship along with the owner at the guest's expense. Examples include: growling, barking excessively, initiating unsolicited contact, biting other guests and/or crewmembers, failure to use designated relief areas, sitting on furniture, eating from the table, etc.

https://www.cruise.com/cruise-information/special-needs/celebrity-cruises/

I agree with you about what a service dog should look like, as there are many breeds and mix breeds that are true service dog. But you are incorrect as far has how they should act, because this is clearly outlined by the ADA, just as the disabilities are clearly listed.

I have never seen the ADA definition or requirements. Guilty, as charged. As I Am sure others have not either. Thus the reason each of us have thoughts as to when, where and how these animals are to act without the benefit of reading the regs.

So far, you are the only poster who has cited ADA, others have 'generally' indicated what 'we' thought without mentioning ADA... as such, I can only presume they may not know or did not think to cite the ADA on this...

Thank you for citing this...

bon voyage

Interesting, this is from Celebrity's website, but it seems they don't abide by it, based on reports of this dog growling, barking and doing his business outside the relief area :

 

Guests are responsible for the behavior or damage caused by their service dog. A cleaning fee may be charged to the guest's shipboard account. If the service dog's behavior creates a fundamental alteration or a direct threat to safety, the dog may be denied boarding or removed from the ship along with the owner at the guest's expense. Examples include: growling, barking excessively, initiating unsolicited contact, biting other guests and/or crewmembers, failure to use designated relief areas, sitting on furniture, eating from the table, etc.

 

https://www.cruise.com/cruise-information/special-needs/celebrity-cruises/

Was it reported to X on-board management or just 'complain amoungst ourselves about this and hope someone else reports or X management see's this' situation?

bon voyage

I have never seen the ADA definition or requirements. Guilty, as charged. As I Am sure others have not either. Thus the reason each of us have thoughts as to when, where and how these animals are to act without the benefit of reading the regs.

 

 

So far, you are the only poster who has cited ADA, others have 'generally' indicated what 'we' thought without mentioning ADA... as such, I can only presume they may not know or did not think to cite the ADA on this...

 

Thank you for citing this...

 

bon voyage

Check post #11, I spoke of the ADA and provided a link to the guidelines from the US Justice Dept.

Just curious, in the highly, highly unlikely event of being bitten by one of the faux service dogs, could you claim self defense for you and other passengers and feed it to the sharks without getting into trouble with the officers onboard? :p

Outside the UK, Australia, and Hawaii, and maybe a few other places, that would unfortunately guarantee that you, and possibly everyone else who came in contact with the dog, would get the joy of a rabies series...

(Although with any luck your insurance company would go after the owner to pay for the expense.)

I've been on several cruises over several cruise lines where legitimate service dogs are providing support to their owners. I don't know if I was in the same situation if I would have the courage to cruise.These brave people need as much support as we can give them and that includes calling out the fakes because these fakes make it harder for the people who do need the service animals.

However I think the issue is people bringing their pets claiming them as Emotional Support Animals, when clearly due to disposition and lack of training these are pets, usually poorly trained pets. The problem is that when these beasts misbehave, cause disruption to fellow passengers, defecate where they please, snap, bite, bark and cause some passengers discomfort, the cruise lines do nothing. It's fine and dandy to say "speak with the Hotel Manager about unusual/unacceptable behaviours by the animal or its' owner etc" but when the complaints are made and Management does nothing, then what can be done ?

I have yet to see any cruise line draw a line against the abuse of the current rules, and instead am seeing more reports of passengers frustrated by the lack of enforcement. I suspect the abuse will continue until regulations are tightened and enforced, and this needs to be done so that legitimate service animals can provide support to those who need it.

rather that be visibly avoiding the situation, speak with the Hotel Manager about unusual/unacceptable behaviours by the animal or its' owner etc...this is subjective as well, behaviour (just like food and entertainment)! LOL

 

I have yet to see any cruise line draw a line against the abuse of the current rules, and instead am seeing more reports of passengers frustrated by the lack of enforcement. I suspect the abuse will continue until regulations are tightened and enforced, and this needs to be done so that legitimate service animals can provide support to those who need it.

There are a number of states who are trying to crack down on the faker dogs, but businesses are afraid to not allow them in their business, because the person always threatens a lawsuit (one the offender wouldn't win, but the business doesn't want to take the chance). I wish that here in the US would set up a licensesing of service dogs; ala, handicap license plates. The owner would have to prove their disability and it would have to be aligned with ADA regulations and the dog would have to be trained. If this was done, fakers would not be able to get a license for their dog and businesses could ask for the license when a dog enters their business.

That is why I say, if there are abuses, especially a dog relieving itself in public places or a dog being fed from the table, take a picture and submit it to the first US port of call's health department copying Celebrity. Trust me, Celebrity doesn't want any bad reports from the health department. Maybe if enough people complain about misbehaving dogs, Celebrity will abide by their own rules.

 

There are a number of states who are trying to crack down on the faker dogs, but businesses are afraid to not allow them in their business, because the person always threatens a lawsuit (one the offender wouldn't win, but the business doesn't want to take the chance). I wish that here in the US would set up a licensesing of service dogs; ala, handicap license plates. The owner would have to prove their disability and it would have to be aligned with ADA regulations and the dog would have to be trained. If this was done, fakers would not be able to get a license for their dog and businesses could ask for the license when a dog enters their business.

Sadly, abuse of handicap license plates has grown too.

Sadly, abuse of handicap license plates has grown too.

Hard to tell that because many times you don't know what the handicap might be. At least with handicap plates there has to be a doctor's signature before people can get them but with Service dogs they are not allowed to ask for proof. That's the difference. Handicap plates of course can be abused by family.

Does a passenger have to report to Celebrity that they are bringing alone a service dog or a support dog prior to sailing and does Celebrity verify that the animal is a certified service dog and not a pet?

Under the ADA a service dog must be certified.

Is a support dog certified included under the ADA act and where is it found?

In the US there is no registry of trained service dogs and the cruise line (as well as airlines and other means of public conveyance have no legal means to stop this woman and the others who take advantage. Why does Celebrity allow it? Because right now it has no choice.

You nailed it. Don't blame Celebrity, they are boxed into accepting service dogs.

This spring my wife and I were on a Baltic cruise on the Silhouette and one of the passengers had a so-called support dog. The dog looked like a mangy miniature poodle blend and the owner carried it around everywhere in a baby sack on his belly. The hassle came when our tour group went to the Hermitage Museum in Saint Petersburg. The man insisted on bringing the damn dog with him. The Hermitage staff said "no dogs" at which point a 45 minute discussion and stand-off ensued between the dog owner, our tour guide and museum staff. By the time the dog owner grudgingly agreed to return to the bus, our tour time had been reduced by a full hour. Talk about 40 angry people!

Please understand I'm not opposed to real service dogs but the situation with so-called support dogs is getting out of control.

This is a perfect example how ignorant and self absorbed these faux service dog people are. They were In Russia and they expect their "god given right under the US Constitution to claim the same rights" would translate to a foreign sovereign nation? Low low class.

On the Celebrity Special Needs form there is a box to check for Service Dog.

And I found this:

"Service Animals

Service animals are welcome on all ships except those sailing to the United Kingdom due to DEFRA regulations. A relief area measuring 4 feet by 4 feet, with cypress mulch, is provided on board."

There was also a note that service animals are not allowed on Galapagos cruises.

I couldn't find anything about requirements for the service animal... certification, vet records, etc.

Does a passenger have to report to Celebrity that they are bringing alone a service dog or a support dog prior to sailing and does Celebrity verify that the animal is a certified service dog and not a pet?

 

Under the ADA a service dog must be certified.

Is a support dog certified included under the ADA act and where is it found?

Service dogs do not need to be certified under the ADA, that is one of the problems.

The other major problem is the cruise line, hotel, restaurant, etc is not permitted under the ADA to ask for any certification, vet records, etc. They are only allowed under the law to ask if the animal is a service animal and what task does it perform. Only dogs can be service dogs except for some miniature horses.

Again, support animals do not qualify as service dogs and do not fall under the ADA, would refer again to the link I posted in post #11.

For me, these are REAL comfort dogs:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42028076

Check post #11, I spoke of the ADA and provided a link to the guidelines from the US Justice Dept.

d - thank you.

bon voyage

I was curious so did some sniffing around (pardon the pun). In the US you must qualify for an ESA (Emotional Support Animal) by getting a qualified mental health professional to submit a letter.

How to Qualify for An Emotional Support Animal

If you have an emotional disability, you can legally qualify for an ESA, short for emotional support animal. You must be certified as emotionally disabled by a psychologist, therapist, psychiatrist or other duly-licensed and/or certified mental health professional. This certification should be a formal and appropriately formatted letter.

Other info here:

http://usdogregistry.org/information/information-on-emotional-support-dogs/

That is why I say, if there are abuses, especially a dog relieving itself in public places or a dog being fed from the table, take a picture and submit it to the first US port of call's health department copying Celebrity. Trust me, Celebrity doesn't want any bad reports from the health department. Maybe if enough people complain about misbehaving dogs, Celebrity will abide by their own rules.

 

There are a number of states who are trying to crack down on the faker dogs, but businesses are afraid to not allow them in their business, because the person always threatens a lawsuit (one the offender wouldn't win, but the business doesn't want to take the chance). I wish that here in the US would set up a licensesing of service dogs; ala, handicap license plates. The owner would have to prove their disability and it would have to be aligned with ADA regulations and the dog would have to be trained. If this was done, fakers would not be able to get a license for their dog and businesses could ask for the license when a dog enters their business.

There are pros and cons to state registration. Con is cost. Plenty of people train their own dogs. Others are like me, and hire a trainer to work with both of us. It is hard work to train the dog to the standard. Note that the law doesn't spell out the standard. Assistance Dogs international (ADI) has some recommended standards, but those are not law and ADI has some strange policies.

Either way, the dog being described is not a trained Service dog and the dog and owner/partner should be disembarked from the ship. They give a bad name to those of us with real medical needs, who work hard to train and maintain the training of real service dogs.

I was curious so did some sniffing around (pardon the pun). In the US you must qualify for an ESA (Emotional Support Animal) by getting a qualified mental health professional to submit a letter.

How to Qualify for An Emotional Support Animal

If you have an emotional disability, you can legally qualify for an ESA, short for emotional support animal. You must be certified as emotionally disabled by a psychologist, therapist, psychiatrist or other duly-licensed and/or certified mental health professional. This certification should be a formal and appropriately formatted letter.

 

Other info here:

http://usdogregistry.org/information/information-on-emotional-support-dogs/

Keep in mind that ESA have no legal status under the ADA. Establishments have no obligation to allow them in their hotels, restaurants, etc as they do with a service dog.

I have read the Florida law and the flaw in all the state statutes is that they can't overule the ADA. This means that no matter how they would love to they can't get over the fact that the ADA forbids asking for any type of certification when you are checking into a hotel or eating at a restaurant.