Would you go to Egypt in November?

[Cruising-along]

The big problem with the possibility that they might cancel the stop in Egypt is that Egypt is the main reason we booked the cruise. What a horrible disappointment it would be to spend around $10K on a cruise and miss the stop you wanted the most.

 

What I would really like to do is the Viking Cruise that is Egypt only. We've been to almost all the other ports on the Princess cruise we booked. Only Israel and Egypt would be new.

 

I've decided to tell my husband I don't want to do the cruise we booked. He thinks this might be our last chance to go there because "we aren't getting any younger."

 

I can relate. The overnight in Egypt was the main reason we booked this cruise too. Now our cruise has 4 days in Israel instead of 2/2. But we have traveling companions with their own plans set (and she's my sister, so not easy to back out) :p plus air all booked and a week of land traveling all booked. (air, cars, hotels)

 

If I were you, I'd hold the reservation up until close to final payment. If Egypt hasn't been added in by then, you can cancel and still get your full deposit back.

 

We have even put down a deposit on the Oct. 10 Princess cruise because it leaves the same day from the same port as our Celebrity cruise. The draw for us is that Princess has reinstated Egypt, and no air travel would have to be changed. This way we feel we have our bases covered. Granted ALL the cruiselines may very well end up not going to Egypt, but at least we feel like we have more of a chance. We'll just cancel one of them before final payment.

[4774Papa]

A couple of points on going to Egypt. Saying it may be the safest Mid-East country is not saying much with a civil war in Libya; mass murder by the state in Syria; near revolutions in Bahrain and Yemen; a still unsettled Algeria and Tunisia and more.

 

We were in Morocco in March, and it was fine, but the King is highly loved and respected there. Egypt is still going through political changes that have already created a government that is more hostile to Israel and the West. This uncertainty has a nation that once was a relatively safe police state, not one with those in charge not completely solidified law and order. Egypt has announced it is opening its borders with Gaza, which will likely lead to more cross-fertilization with the wrong element there.

 

Like I said earlier, we are booked to go next February, but if cancelled for Egypt, not a problem.

 

In fact, Israel is wonderful. There is much to see there, and it is a very safe country. Further, Israel is not a third-world country like Egypt. It is on a level with Europe.

[4774Papa]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110508/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_sectarian_clashes

[havcamwiltravel]

A couple of points on going to Egypt. Saying it may be the safest Mid-East country is not saying much with a civil war in Libya; mass murder by the state in Syria; near revolutions in Bahrain and Yemen; a still unsettled Algeria and Tunisia and more.

 

We were in Morocco in March, and it was fine, but the King is highly loved and respected there. Egypt is still going through political changes that have already created a government that is more hostile to Israel and the West. This uncertainty has a nation that once was a relatively safe police state, not one with those in charge not completely solidified law and order. Egypt has announced it is opening its borders with Gaza, which will likely lead to more cross-fertilization with the wrong element there.

 

Like I said earlier, we are booked to go next February, but if cancelled for Egypt, not a problem.

 

In fact, Israel is wonderful. There is much to see there, and it is a very safe country. Further, Israel is not a third-world country like Egypt. It is on a level with Europe.

 

You seem to be agreeing with me, 4774Papa.

 

As you know, there was a bus bombing in Israel just a couple of months back and missiles were being lobbed into Israeli neighbourhoods at that same time. Whereas in Marrakech Morocco just last week, several tourists including a Canadian lost their lives in the suicide bombing of a restaurant.

 

So, those events, as well as events unfolding in Syria, Libya, Bahrain and Yemen, actually support the premise I put forward that Egypt is probably the safest country in the Middle-East for tourists.

 

I acknowledge that Egypt is more dangerous than it was, but it's certainly more a result though of the ongoing demonstrations and the possibility of reprisals for the death of Osama Bin Laden than the two things you've listed: the burning of Coptic churches and a less friendly Egyptian government.

 

Unlike Israel and Morocco, tourists have not been harmed recently in Egypt. That being said, I'd be a fool to say that there is no danger. We all know that tourists have been harmed in Egypt in the past. It would just take one tourist's death to prove how foolish a statement that would be. On the other hand, the shooting of Gabrielle Gifford goes a long way to prove that it is impossible to think we are safe anywhere - even in our own marketplaces and neighbourhoods.

 

The dangers in the Middle-East are real but they are no greater, I feel, than the different kinds of violence that we face in our cities in America and in Canada, every day. Most of us use daily strategies to avoid the violence and most of us remain safe. So all I am saying is that thousands survive and indeed enjoy their trips to Egypt by being strategic and cautious - for instance, one could recommend that when in Egypt, you would be wise to stay away from demonstrations in Tahrir Square and Coptic Christian churches. As another example, on a recent visit to Washington DC, I didn't walk alone through the streets at night so it only makes sense that I shouldn't try do that in Cairo, either. It's all a question of relative safety, isn't it? It'd be stupid to say anything else.

 

With hundreds of people visiting the tourist sites every day in Egypt, with many cruise lines and tour companies returning there, it is more than hype to say that people should avoid Egypt.

 

What people should be told is simply to be aware of the dangers and be strategic and cautious with their planning.

[4774Papa]

havacm, I generally agree with you. I first travelled to Egypt right after the Achile Lauro terror attack, without a problem. However, I do think with the change in government, that the government has less a grip on law and order, and keeping tabs on extremist groups.

Having said that, I still have plans to go next February, knowing that I will be there for a relatively short time with a tour group (security should be there).

 

I think your statement says a lot:

 

"What people should be told is simply to be aware of the dangers and be strategic and cautious with their planning."

[havcamwiltravel]

havacm, I generally agree with you. I first travelled to Egypt right after the Achile Lauro terror attack, without a problem. However, I do think with the change in government, that the government has less a grip on law and order, and keeping tabs on extremist groups.

Having said that, I still have plans to go next February, knowing that I will be there for a relatively short time with a tour group (security should be there).

 

I think your statement says a lot:

 

"What people should be told is simply to be aware of the dangers and be strategic and cautious with their planning."

 

I think you're absolutely right. The government is on pretty shaky ground right now, and has been ever since the revolution. They seem to be having difficulty with even the most basic task of keeping order and enforcing the law - and "What is the law?" seems even to be in question during this interim period.

 

The extremists, especially the religious extremists, have always been a problem in Egypt and they remain so. The repression of Coptic Christians by Muslim extremists has been going on for decades, if not centuries.

 

Hopefully the reforms will begin in earnest after the September elections.

[greatam]

 

So, those events, as well as events unfolding in Syria, Libya, Bahrain and Yemen, actually support the premise I put forward that Egypt is probably the safest country in the Middle-East for tourists.

 

Kuwait, Qatar, UAE and Oman are FAR safer than Egypt at this point in time. STABLE governments and that is a BIG difference. Not many poor people (other than the TCN's-third country nationals). Closed borders and rigorous border checks to keep undesirables out.

 

I acknowledge that Egypt is more dangerous than it was, but it's certainly more a result though of the ongoing demonstrations and the possibility of reprisals for the death of Osama Bin Laden than the two things you've listed: the burning of Coptic churches and a less friendly Egyptian government.

 

This is where you are wrong. The less friendly, Iran leaning new Egyptian government is the REAL biggie when it comes to future security. They can't control their own people. How do you think that will bring security for tourists? Do you think they even care?? Opening the crossing into Gaza and the very, very great potential of the Mid East peace treaty being overturned/abandoned by the new government opens up some very, very nasty possibilities. It is pretty well a given the Muslim Brotherhood (banned for well over 30 years in most of the MidEast) will control the government when they have the elections in September. If they have their way, Egypt will become an Islamist country and it is not exactly their mode of operation to have 1000's of Westerners (the infidels-the apostates) running around their country.

 

Unlike Israel and Morocco, tourists have not been harmed recently in Egypt. That being said, I'd be a fool to say that there is no danger. We all know that tourists have been harmed in Egypt in the past. It would just take one tourist's death to prove how foolish a statement that would be. On the other hand, the shooting of Gabrielle Gifford goes a long way to prove that it is impossible to think we are safe anywhere - even in our own marketplaces and neighbourhoods.

 

The dangers in the Middle-East are real but they are no greater, I feel, than the different kinds of violence that we face in our cities in America and in Canada, every day. Most of us use daily strategies to avoid the violence and most of us remain safe. So all I am saying is that thousands survive and indeed enjoy their trips to Egypt by being strategic and cautious - for instance, one could recommend that when in Egypt, you would be wise to stay away from demonstrations in Tahrir Square and Coptic Christian churches. As another example, on a recent visit to Washington DC, I didn't walk alone through the streets at night so it only makes sense that I shouldn't try do that in Cairo, either. It's all a question of relative safety, isn't it? It'd be stupid to say anything else.

 

You overlook the very real fact that attacks against Westerners (tourists included) are DIRECTED SPECIFICALLY against certain groups. They are also planned in advance and coordinated with others. NOT random violence/crimes of opportunity that happen in the USA/other parts of the world as you are trying to make it seem. It doesn't take much to look up a cruise ship schedule and plan an attack. It also doesn't take much to watch tour groups and see the vulnerabilities. That is NOT random violence as you make it out.

 

What people should be told is simply to be aware of the dangers and be strategic and cautious with their planning.

 

Being aware of the dangers is one thing and way too simplistic. Being able to GET OUT OF A COUNTRY or a dangerous situation on your own with no help from the cruise company, tour guide or travel agent is totally another. 90% of the average tourists are NOT prepared to fend for themselves in an emergency situation. The majority of people on cruise ships DEPEND on the cruise line or their shore excursion operator for help.

 

I truly believe you are overlooking the VERY REAL possibility that the closer to the elections you travel to Egypt, the more danger you are putting yourself in. And who knows what will happen AFTER the elections-burqa's with your visa, hijabs for all women? You posted your own wife is very nervous about traveling there in this time period. She lived there, probably has friends there and is at least cognizant of the ins and outs of the country. I think your wife's very real feelings should be heeded.

[4774Papa]

more bad news:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ME10Ak01.html

[havcamwiltravel]

I think your wife's very real feelings should be heeded.

You must have missed the line before, Greatam, where I wrote "she can't wait to get back and show it off to me.".

 

It would appear that with my opinions, I am in the company of practically all of the Western countries who are all softening their travel warnings, the cruise companies who are returning to Egypt, the Tour companies who are offering itineraries throughout Egypt, the tourists who have returned and continue to return to Egypt since the revolution, and the youth of Egypt who shout out their optimism about Egypt's future; the optimists.

 

You stand with those who believe that Egypt's revolution was either a Muslim extremist plot or something that will be exploited by Muslim extremists; the pessimists.

 

We are very different people, you and I, but it's good, I suppose, that others get to see that difference and ultimately make up their own minds whether they are optimists or pessimists.

 

At least we agree on one thing, even though you much prefer to SHOUT IT and put it into much scarier words, and that is: "What people should be told is simply to be aware of the dangers and be strategic and cautious with their planning."

[4774Papa]

I just received an email from NCL that they cancelled our Jade cruise to the Holy Land starting 18 Feb 12. NCL is reducing its Mid-East sailing due to "political unrest."

I am not that upset, we can always go somewhere else. Better that I found out early, before I purchased the airline tickets.

[NETexan]

I got my e-mail from NCL as well today, cancelling my 3/21/2012 cruise from Rome that included 2 days at Alexandria due to political unrest. Grrrrrrrrrrr! I booked this cruise only because it included Egypt. We were going for our 30th Anniversary, and I have wanted to see Egypt since I was a little. Did I say Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!?

 

After looking at the other lines it appears my choices are: Wait a while and see what develops, or totally scrap the original plan and see what the wife and I can find suitable for the occasion. Believe me, after 30 years of me she deserves something good!

 

I am impatient so waiting patiently to see what might develop is not likely. In a dream scenario everything will be roses after the election and Princess will book an Egypt and Aegean the week we want to go. Oh, well.

[manoftheworld]

You must have missed the line before, Greatam, where I wrote "she can't wait to get back and show it off to me.".

 

It would appear that with my opinions, I am in the company of practically all of the Western countries who are all softening their travel warnings, the cruise companies who are returning to Egypt, the Tour companies who are offering itineraries throughout Egypt, the tourists who have returned and continue to return to Egypt since the revolution, and the youth of Egypt who shout out their optimism about Egypt's future; the optimists.

 

You stand with those who believe that Egypt's revolution was either a Muslim extremist plot or something that will be exploited by Muslim extremists; the pessimists.

 

We are very different people, you and I, but it's good, I suppose, that others get to see that difference and ultimately make up their own minds whether they are optimists or pessimists.

 

At least we agree on one thing, even though you much prefer to SHOUT IT and put it into much scarier words, and that is: "What people should be told is simply to be aware of the dangers and be strategic and cautious with their planning."

 

I stand by the optimists. and I want to add that since the revolution took place no attack or robbery has been reported against tourists. this consolidates the friendliness of the Egyptian people that I witnessed while I was there. what goes in Egypt nowadays is nation on the road to democracy a nation marching through the darkness and searching for the light at the end of the tunnel.

I believe that cruise lines will not risk the lives of its passengers without ensuring their safety.

[havcamwiltravel]

I just received an email from NCL that they cancelled our Jade cruise to the Holy Land starting 18 Feb 12. NCL is reducing its Mid-East sailing due to "political unrest."

I am not that upset, we can always go somewhere else. Better that I found out early, before I purchased the airline tickets.

So sorry to hear that, 4774Papa. I hope you find something equal or better to what you had.

I got my e-mail from NCL as well today, cancelling my 3/21/2012 cruise from Rome that included 2 days at Alexandria due to political unrest. Grrrrrrrrrrr! I booked this cruise only because it included Egypt. We were going for our 30th Anniversary, and I have wanted to see Egypt since I was a little. Did I say Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!?

 

After looking at the other lines it appears my choices are: Wait a while and see what develops, or totally scrap the original plan and see what the wife and I can find suitable for the occasion. Believe me, after 30 years of me she deserves something good!

 

I am impatient so waiting patiently to see what might develop is not likely. In a dream scenario everything will be roses after the election and Princess will book an Egypt and Aegean the week we want to go. Oh, well.

I can soooo relate, NETexan. I have wanted to get to Egypt since I got my first subscription to National Geographic at five years old. As you have probably read, I have a great deal of optimism about where Egypt is heading and I think that visiting Egypt at this time is going to be like visiting any of the Eastern Block countries after the walls fell down. I hope you get there for your anniversary. Best of luck!

[havcamwiltravel]

I stand by the optimists. and I want to add that since the revolution took place no attack or robbery has been reported against tourists. this consolidates the friendliness of the Egyptian people that I witnessed while I was there. what goes in Egypt nowadays is nation on the road to democracy a nation marching through the darkness and searching for the light at the end of the tunnel.

I believe that cruise lines will not risk the lives of its passengers without ensuring their safety.

Beautifully put, Manoftheworld.

[Cruising-along]

I just received an email from NCL that they cancelled our Jade cruise to the Holy Land starting 18 Feb 12. NCL is reducing its Mid-East sailing due to "political unrest."

I am not that upset, we can always go somewhere else. Better that I found out early, before I purchased the airline tickets.

 

So sorry to hear this. I read somewhere that NCL canceled all Holy Land sailings from this Nov on through next year. And yet they're still going this October. :confused: Does this make sense to anyone? If it's political unrest they're worried about, why go in Oct and cancel everything after that? :cool:

[cruisemom42]

I would consider myself neither an optimist nor a pessimist but maybe a realist. I don't foresee doom and gloom for Egypt, but neither do I think that traveling there this year is without risk. Not necessarily risk to life or limb, but there is a risk of dislocation in touring due to perhaps having to avoid certain areas. Or risk that the tourist infrastructure is not functioning optimally at this particular time. Or that you'll make plans to go only to find (as many have this year) that their cruise stop or land trip has been cancelled.

 

I believe that travel to Egypt this year is going to be more-or-less self-selecting. Those that don't mind the risk will go, and those who don't want to assume the risk will not go.

 

Of course, many people (including myself) have said that they wouldn't necessarily pick this year to visit Egypt. However, what is unsaid is that we don't really know whether the situation will get better -- or, unthinkably, degenerate -- in a year's time.

[4774Papa]

I agree with Cynthia on Egypt. We were willing to go next Feb by thinking things would have settled down by then. I have been to Egypt twice, so it is no big deal for me, but my Wife had not been there.

 

I think NCL reduced its cruises to Egypt because they probably were not selling that well.

[greatam]

More "Days of Rage" protests scheduled throughout the Middle East over Memorial Day weekend (most starting Friday after prayers).

 

Even the most high profile Egyptian politician in today's Egypt reports Egypt is disintegrating socially and the economy is bust.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-22/egypt-groups-call-for-second-round-of-rage-on-lack-of-change.html

 

It is no wonder the US Military still has a ban on recreational travel outside the war zones to Egypt and Bahrain.

 

 

The "Days of Rage" tags for the Middle East protests have me still wondering how many have read books about the Vietnam War and the Vietnam War protests. Abby Hoffman/Tom Hayden, SDS and the Weather Underground (Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn, Kathy Wilkenson, etc. etc.) called quite a few of the major protests "Days of Rage", particularly the demonstration in the Chicago during the Democratic National Convention in 1968 which lead to the Chicago 8 trial. There was another large demonstration also in Chicago led by Mark Rudd of the Weathermen in October 1969 very specifically called "Days of Rage". Just curious about the "Days of Rage" titles of the Middle East protests and if there is any correlation.

[tiyana4]

The big problem with the possibility that they might cancel the stop in Egypt is that Egypt is the main reason we booked the cruise. What a horrible disappointment it would be to spend around $10K on a cruise and miss the stop you wanted the most.

 

What I would really like to do is the Viking Cruise that is Egypt only. We've been to almost all the other ports on the Princess cruise we booked. Only Israel and Egypt would be new.

 

I've decided to tell my husband I don't want to do the cruise we booked. He thinks this might be our last chance to go there because "we aren't getting any younger."

 

This is the case for many who book the E. Med cruises. We were very fortunate last Nov/Dec to spend an overnight in Egypt. While it was hot and dirty, it was also something that I would do all over again. Our time there, though limited, was amazing. Granted, this was before the revolution broke out but still....the Nile, Luxor, Temples of Abu Simbel....they all await my return.

 

Just two weeks after our return, NCL pulled Egypt from the itinerary. There were SOOOO many disappointed cruisers who had booked solely for that port. I think you have made a wise decision to book a cruise that focuses solely on Egypt. I would love to do that in the near future. Enjoy!

[Senior Citizen]

We just came back from an Oceania cruise that started in Dubai and ended in Athens. We docked for two days in Safaga, Egypt and our private group of 12 overnighted at the Sheraton Luxor. Luxor was amazing. Tourism was down so most of our photos are clear shots of the sights. The tourists who were there were mainly Europeans. At no time were we afraid. People just went about their business. We also docked in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt and took the ship's tour to St. Catherine's Monastery. Great tour! We also docked for two days in Ashdod, Israel and our private group overnighted at the Harmony Hotel in Jerusalem. We were able to see Jerusalem, Bethlehem, the Dead Sea and the Masada. We docked one day in Haifa, Israel and toured the Sea of Galilee/Jordan River areas and Nazareth. We went to Petra and Wadi Rum from the port of Aqaba, Jordan. We also visited Muscat and Salalah, Oman.

 

There definitely are cruises going to Egypt and the Holy Land right now. As far as Egypt is concerned, our cruise decided not to stop in Port Said and Alexandria. They substituted a second day in Ashdod, Israel and a day in Kusadasi (Ephesus), Turkey for these two ports in Egypt.

[texancruzer]

While we have not visited Egypt while on a cruise, we did do a 15 day tour there last November with Gate 1 tours. Cairo, Luxor, 7 night Nile cruise, Aswan, Abu Simbel and Hurghada on the Red Sea. We were all over - North to South.

 

What an amazing trip. I cannot fathom those who said they felt unwelcome or unsafe ! We found the Egyptian people to be wonderfully friendly, truly glad we were there, and just as curious about us as we were about them. Not once did we feel unsafe, while on a plane, a ship, a bus, walking or ON A CAMEL ;)

 

Most of the people we talked with, and we did alot, just wanted a better life. Just like most everyone else in the world, food to eat, a home and a small chance for a better life for their children. No one held any animosity towards us because we had different beliefs, were different color or for the most part, way richer than they could ever dream.

 

We are still in contact with our guide, who became more of a friend than guide, and things are even harder for the people there than before. Tourism is the 3rd largest source of income for Egypt and without it, many are hurting. But to them it is worth it in order to have a chance for a democracy so everyone can have a voice. A concept we hold true and dear. I do not have plans to go again soon......but I truly hope to return again. If the ships goes there, I would go.

 

As far as NCL cancelling, there have been a few articles about how many of the cruiselines deployed too many ships to Europe. Oversaturation. And many people are not going...... the cruise prices are great BUT THE AIRFARE IS A KILLER !!!!! So, they, and others (RCI) are bringing some back this way. Mostly a supply and demand move.

[4774Papa]

This is sobering news

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE75302M20110604

[girlofsummer]

We are booked on Oceania Nov 6, 2011 to Middle East.. There are three of us and we are going, unless something dreadful happens last minute...My understanding is that Egyptians are wanting tourists and the sights (luxor) are not as crowded as in the past. I also hear that King Tut's tomb will be closing permanently at year's end due to risk of deterioration and this is a must in our bucket list. There are cruises in the area right now with no problems. I have a few concerns but not enough to cancel the cruise..we have purchased private insurance just in case. I am considering doing private excursions rather that pricey cruise sponsored ones to both Luxor and Petra..does anyone have any experience doing so in these two ports? Thank you and good luck if you decide to go..

[girlofsummer]

Hi, I forgot when I posted my last thread to ask another question...I am doing the same cruise On Oceania Nautica, except in reverse order..ie. Athens to Dubai in November...I have a concern about the "dreaded Israeli" stamp on my passport since I will be flying out of Dubai on the return home after having visited Israel. Did they stamp your passport or did they do so on a separate card? My understanding is that Oceania holds the passports on board. Do they return you passports as you visit each port or just at the end of the cruise? Forgive me if my questions sound stupid but I have not travelled with this cruise line or in this part of the world before. Any other info from anyone out there regarding this subject, visas, private excursions etc would be appreciated...By the way we are US citizens if it makes any difference...Thanks again!!!!

[cruisemom42]

Hi, I forgot when I posted my last thread to ask another question...I am doing the same cruise On Oceania Nautica, except in reverse order..ie. Athens to Dubai in November...I have a concern about the "dreaded Israeli" stamp on my passport since I will be flying out of Dubai on the return home after having visited Israel. Did they stamp your passport or did they do so on a separate card? My understanding is that Oceania holds the passports on board. Do they return you passports as you visit each port or just at the end of the cruise? Forgive me if my questions sound stupid but I have not travelled with this cruise line or in this part of the world before. Any other info from anyone out there regarding this subject, visas, private excursions etc would be appreciated...By the way we are US citizens if it makes any difference...Thanks again!!!!

 

This was my experience last October on the Westerdam:

 

Israeli security wants to meet with all passengers face to face (unlike some other countries where they will just stamp all the held passports). So on our cruise, several Israeli officials came aboard the day before our first port of call in Israel. They set up in the main lounge and HAL published set times throughout the day for passengers to come and meet with them and get cleared. The times were based on your deck and cabin number.

 

The process was very orderly. You were given your passport back at a desk in front of the lounge, then you lined up to meet with the officials. They questioned everyone. At this point, you could ask them to not stamp your passport. It looked to me like this is what they were doing for most passengers (e.g., stamping a piece of paper, not the passport). You will then take your passport and your stamped paper with you when you go ashore in Israel. Don't lose the stamped piece.

 

Since Oceania is a smaller ship, I can't guarantee they will follow the exact procedure -- they may not have the officials board until they reach port (some smaller ships have done it this way), which could delay you getting a start early in the morning of landing. However, I don't think you'll have any problem with asking them to withhold the passport stamp.