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Woolloomooloo hullabaloo: Locals don't want cruise liners at Garden Island

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A POTTS Point heritage campaigner says Woolloomooloo and surrounding areas would not be able to cope if cruise liners were to dock at Garden Island naval base.
Andrew Woodhouse said he was disappointed that Sydney Lord Mayor Clover Moore expressed support for cruise liners to use the Garden Island base in a mayoral minute in August.
Mr Woodhouse said liners could bring up to 6000 disembarking passengers a day, which he said could lead to traffic gridlock. “Potts Point just isn’t big enough for what they’ve got in mind,” he said.
A Department of Defence spokesman said the Navy’s presence on Garden Island would continue into the foreseeable future, [B]with six more ships expected to join the nine ships docked at the base by 2014.[/B]
“Planning is well advanced to develop the infrastructure required on Garden Island ... to support these new classes of warship,” the spokesman said.
“Defence has no plans to relocate the base.”
He said that the independent Garden Island review conducted by Dr Allan Hawke would “assess whether there is scope for a more flexible approach that balances the Navy’s needs with cruise industry requirements to secure advanced berth bookings.”
In her minute, Cr Moore said: “I also support the sharing of deepwater berths between naval and commercial shipping, when appropriate, and if the impacts on the densely populated surrounding area can be managed to protect residential amenity.”



[URL]http://wentworth-courier.whereilive.com.au/news/story/woolloomooloo-hullabaloo-cruise-liners-shouldnt-dock-at-garden-island-says-local/[/URL]


[URL="http://wentworth-courier.whereilive.com.au/news/story/woolloomooloo-hullabaloo-cruise-liners-shouldnt-dock-at-garden-island-says-local/"]
[/URL]

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Unfortunately, one person does not represent a suburb. However, there are a number of people who are vocal enough in that area - Potts Point in particular - to proclaim that they do.

I like the sound of where Defence are going with this. As for the person this article was based on, here appears to make a lot of noise sending off press releases, but that doesn't mean his viewpoint has any great weight or representation than anyone else's.

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I have to agree with the resident - there is no room left at the Inn as regards Garden Island. Have a look at the one and only through road that leads to GI. In one direction it comes down the hill right through the heart of Kings Cross and in the other direction from the VERY busy Cowper Wharf roadway.

Barry

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[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]At least they are still talking about what to do I guess thats a plus.
They would need to do something about traffic in the area if they were to have cruise ships berthed there.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]Personally despite being a member of the "Navy Family" as they call us I think a naval base in the centre of Sydney is pretty ridiculous. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]Why cant Jervis Bay be expanded? I live on the Central Coast how about a Naval Base in Newcastle...:) Anyway it seems all the action is to the north of Australia and the West..that is where we need more naval ships.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]As for six new ships...I'll believe it when I see it. My boy is 3 years in the navy joined up to go on submarines (yes I thought he was crazy too ships are meant to float)..he might actually get on one before his hitch is up maybe....they have more ships out of service than in service at the moment.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]

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Anyway, Voyager of the Seas will be berthing at OPT. I doubt that we will get any much larger than her visiting Sydney in the future. QM2 is a one-off that only comes every now and then.

Barry Edited by bazzaw

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[quote name='bazzaw']Anyway, Voyager of the Seas will be berthing at OPT. I doubt that we will get any much larger than her visiting Sydney in the future. QM2 is a one-off that only comes every now and then.

Barry[/QUOTE]Carnival Spirit is too big to sail under the bridge so when she's based here permanently, she'll need to use the OPT. If it's in use, what do they do? They do need to find some sort of solution.

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Good point about Carnival Spirit - but height wise, there isn't a great deal of difference between her and Pac Jewel ( Not that there is much to spare when Jewel goes under the bridge)

Has it been officially announced anywhere that Spirit is unable to go under?

[IMG]http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k59/Barryward12345/JewelSpirit.jpg[/IMG]

Barry

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I think the report is full of garbage. The navy has hosted international ships for many years that have put double the amount of people into the area than any cruise ship can. Look at the many occasions the US navy turned up with aircraft carriers (5,000+crew) and landing ships as well as its escorts. The days of the US aircraft carrier visits are over now for Sydney harbour.

Also QM2 can fit at Circular Quay - the only reason it doesnt is becasue it has never entered Sydney harbour alone and without another ship at Circular Quay.

There are issues with docking as many ships cannot fit under the harbour bridge. Carnival Spirity is allot larger than the P&O Australia ships and it cannot fit under the bridge - there is a massive amount of difference in size and air draft.

Also the cruise ship dockings east of the harbour bridge presents a problem when Circular Quay is booked. Many of the Garden Island docks are too small to berth cruise ships. The Cruiser wharf near the Captain Cook dry dock is way to small for any cruise ship that fits under the bridge, plus the main docks for Garden Island itself are not a straight line. The only area that they can dock is exactly where the QM2 ties up. This will present a problem for the Navy as when they get the Canberra class landing ships they will be too large to dock anywhere else. The navy relies on shore power when their ships are docked and it is inconvenient for them to berth side by side just for a cruise ship visit.

The other problem that exists is that there is nowhere in Sydney harbour that a cruise ship can dock east of the bridge other than Circular Quay or Garden Island. The people saying there will be traffic problems have not thought the issue through. Cruise ships can lower their pontoons and disembark by high capacity ferries on the harbour to avoid congestion.

There is only one alternative for cruise ships to dock east of the harbour bridge if the government is prepared to spend the cash. There is a wharf near Milsons Point that used to be the old submarine base HMAS Platypus. If the water is deep enough the wharf would need to be extended and could in theory dock large cruise ships. There is also a direct road leading straight to the harbour bridge. Of course this is also a residential area and could cause upset for the residents of the area.

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[quote name='bazzaw']Good point about Carnival Spirit - but height wise, there isn't a great deal of difference between her and Pac Jewel ( Not that there is much to spare when Jewel goes under the bridge)

Has it been officially announced anywhere that Spirit is unable to go under?



Barry[/quote]

I think you will find that it will not fit under the bridge as also will not the Radiance & Celebrity Century ( I think even the Rhapsody would struggle to get under), so if they have to use the Overseas Passenger Terminal just think of the problems, considering it struggles to handle 2000 passengers now. Just watch the pax whinge then, not the cruise lines fault. The OPT is just too small. Get rid of some the restaurants and give the space back to what it was built for. Its name gives it away " The OVERSEAS PASSENGER Terminal "

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This link here says that Carnival has stated it wont fit under: [URL]http://travel.usatoday.com/cruises/post/2011/01/carnival-cruise-lines-spirit-australia-new-zealand-sydney/138195/1[/URL]

I believe the Sydney harbour bridge has an air draft of 52m. Unless anyone can give a list of official cruise ship air drafts we will just have to guess based on what ships can and cant fit under.

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Looks like some of these cruiselines may not have thought this all out completely.

But there is still some capacity left at OPT for NOV/Dec next year - but also some juggling being done between OPT and Athol Bouy.

Does anybody know where passengers are tendered to when a ship is on Athol Bouy??


Barry

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[quote name='bazzaw']Looks like some of these cruiselines may not have thought this all out completely.
But there is still some capacity left at OPT for NOV/Dec next year - but also some juggling being done between OPT and Athol Bouy.
Does anybody know where passengers are tendered to when a ship is on Athol Bouy?? Barry[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="2"]I am not sure where they will go this year Barry, but before Wharf 5 got underway, passengers reported to a marquee at Barangaroo and were taken to their ship at Athol Bouy by catamaran.
Perhaps they may use where we reported for QM2, by the Anzac Bridge.

[/SIZE]

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[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]Sutho, they could tender people off to alleviate traffic...but what about the tonnes of stores etc. that must come on semi trailers?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]Also the sailors that used to arrive on the aircraft carriers did not have ten suitcases each LOL.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]I am just still kicking myself I did not buy a terrace in Potts Point when I could have bought one for a song...I would have been doing a lot more cruising if I had some foresight.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT]

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[quote name='rugbypopsie'][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]Sutho, they could tender people off to alleviate traffic...but what about the tonnes of stores etc. that must come on semi trailers?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]Also the sailors that used to arrive on the aircraft carriers did not have ten suitcases each LOL.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]I am just still kicking myself I did not buy a terrace in Potts Point when I could have bought one for a song...I would have been doing a lot more cruising if I had some foresight.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[/quote]

That poses as the only problem. Though in QM2's favour it is not a major turnaround port with the majority of passengers already embarked.

From what I have read I do not believe the Navy wants cruise ships at their wharf either. The residents argument is a desperate attempt to keep cruise ships out and their arguments are not as valid as the reasons put forward by the Navy.

When you look at Sydney harbour there is nowhere a ship can dock east of the harbour bridge apart from Circular Quay. The shoreline is too curved and littered with residential areas.

Newcastle is out as it is a coal port and no large docking facilities exist. I assume Wollongogn is in much the same position.

I remember the times when ships had to anchor in the harbour. There were hints of corruption going on in the labor NSW government at the time because small ships that belonged to the likes of Crystal Cruises were taking up prestigious docks at Circular Quay (ships that could easily fit under the bridge) when large ships had to anchor in the harbour like Celebrity Millennium and Aurora whilst there were free berths around at Darling Harbour for the Crystal Ship which onviously splased out money to stay at Circular Quay!

The size of the docks at Garden Island are too small with only one wharf large enough for a ship the size of QM2. I think the only real alternative is rennovating the ex HMAS Platypus. Other side of the bridge than Milsons Point.

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I recall reading somewhere recently(although cant remember where) that they intend to extend the OPT to accommodate larger vessels but I read it as only the wharf itself, not the actual building so the embarking /debarking problem would still remain.

Maybe they could pull down the Harbour Bridge and build a higher one:D:D:D:D

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[quote name='gbenjo']
..........Maybe they could pull down the Harbour Bridge and build a higher one:D:D:D:D[/QUOTE]

LOLOLOL. Or maybe they could convert it to a bascule bridge such as Tower Bridge in London.

Just imagine turnaround with a ship at Athol Buoy!!! :eek:

Hmmmmm! The grain wharf at Fisherman Islands doesn't seem such a compromise for Brisbane, after all! ;)

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[quote name='Sutho']From what I have read I do not believe the Navy wants cruise ships at their wharf either. The residents argument is a desperate attempt to keep cruise ships out and their arguments are not as valid as the reasons put forward by the Navy.
[/quote]

Agreed - when you have to share a space it then causes complications when there are conflicts, whether it be naval exercises, open days, visits or anything else. Given it's currently naval space where they have control, and they just look at requests as needed, it's easier to manage than if they had to share the space.

Nothing much coming from the resident except a nimby style noise.

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Though if things get bad enough the state can boot the container port out of Botany Bay, relocate it to Newcastle and Wollongong and set up one massive cruise terminal in Botany Bay.

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[quote name='Kiwi Kruzer'][SIZE="2"]I am not sure where they will go this year Barry, but before Wharf 5 got underway, passengers reported to a marquee at Barangaroo and were taken to their ship at Athol Bouy by catamaran.
Perhaps they may use where we reported for QM2, by the Anzac Bridge.

[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Hi David

I was thinking more of visiting ships who tie up at Athol Bouy - where are their passengers taken by tender for shore excursions, etc. Just curious - because anywhere near Circular Quay would cause traffic problems. I would have thought that the example of QM2 was a bit of an exception - is it common for ships to take on additional passengers while tied up at Athol Bouy? Apart form the usual OPT and ( soon to be ) White Bay berths, Athol Bouy and Navy Dockyard are basically the only two other places that visiting ships go to??

Barry

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[quote name='rugbypopsie']Also the sailors that used to arrive on the aircraft carriers did not have ten suitcases each LOL.[/QUOTE]

Nor are they collected by 40-50 large tag axle busses to take them on shore tours :)

Barry

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Garden Island was built with large transport vehicles in mind coming right up to the dock. There are two main gates at either end of the wharf allowing one way traffic through avoiding congestion. In fact more coaches can park in the Navy docks than they can fit near Darling Harbour and Circular Quay.

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[quote name='Sutho']Garden Island was built with large transport vehicles in mind coming right up to the dock. There are two main gates at either end of the wharf allowing one way traffic through avoiding congestion. In fact more coaches can park in the Navy docks than they can fit near Darling Harbour and Circular Quay.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps - but would the Navy want them there?? My point being - that there is more in this soup than just the ships themselves.

Barry

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Right now, an annual "visit" by QM2 to Wooloomooloo is a novelty - to local residents, Navy and Sydney. BUT, regular frequent visits by other ships would soon lose their novelty to all and would be another matter entirely.

I would imagine that the cruiselines are looking not only for berths - but guaranteed supply of berths on dates that they would pre-book. If there were to be regular frequent visits by ships to that one suitable Garden Island berth, sooner or later, some Naval ship would require it for some emergency reason (if you were in the Navy, then you would understand what I mean by that) and would undoubtedly get priority over the cruiseship booking. I would think that this is not what cruiselines would be looking for.

Forget GI - it's a no show!!:) - apart from the novelty visits.


Barry

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[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]Apparently its going to take a billion dollars to turn the Opera House into a decent Opera House other than that is a great building...I've an idea it would make a jim dandy cruise terminal instead.:p They could use it and maybe the Quay and put the ferries on the other side of the bridge. (just kidding).[/SIZE][/FONT]

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I was in the Navy and know the wharf well. Unfortunately the lengths of the piers are not long enough to continually support large ships. The exact position where the QM2 docks is the only location on Garden Island that a cruise ship can dock. When the Canberra class ships arrive they cant fit anywhere else.

From what I have seen in the past the Navy has declined requests in the past when Celebrity Millennium had to anchor in the harbour. That was at the same time a small Crystal Cruises ship docked at Circular Quay when there were berths at Darling Harbour that the Crystal ship could easily get to. It was suggested in some media at the time that the NSW goverment may have been accepting higher cash from Crystal to use Circular Quay when other ships were put out.

The QM2 is large enough to dock at Circular Quay. Cunard should just give up sending the two Queens to Sydney at the same time.

I think the only real possibility is to renovate the ex HMAS Platypus base and use it for ships.

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[quote name='Sutho']From what I have seen in the past the Navy has declined requests in the past when Celebrity Millennium had to anchor in the harbour. That was at the same time a small Crystal Cruises ship docked at Circular Quay when there were berths at Darling Harbour that the Crystal ship could easily get to. It was suggested in some media at the time that the NSW goverment may have been accepting higher cash from Crystal to use Circular Quay when other ships were put out.
[/quote]

Celebrity Millennium had to dock in the harbour as they left their bookings way too late. It's a case of first in, best dressed and Celebrity had a number of issues that season as they struggled to reschedule. It had been made comparatively late and they weren't so familiar with the local market. They made some assumptions that didn't turn out right. They haven't repeated their mistake since!

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[quote name='The_Big_M']Celebrity Millennium had to dock in the harbour as they left their bookings way too late. It's a case of first in, best dressed and Celebrity had a number of issues that season as they struggled to reschedule. It had been made comparatively late and they weren't so familiar with the local market. They made some assumptions that didn't turn out right. They haven't repeated their mistake since![/quote]

What about Aurora not getting the wharf first up as well. I remember that was the year Aurora broke down on the way to New Zealand. I think it was Crystal Serenity at Circular Quay and Aurora and Millennium anchored in the harbour. Crystal Serenity eventually moved on and Aurora got a dock.

What left allot of people wondering is why didnt Crystal Serenity be forced into Darling Harbour. P&O are not ones to stuff up booking its ships on World Cruises. The Navy refused all requests that year.

What that situation has proved is that Sydney definately needs another cruise ship terminal east of the harbour bridge. Its very clear that Garden Island cannot and will not be turned into a cruise terminal unless of course the Navy is relocated to Newcastle or Wollongong.

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Sutho

I agree with some things you are saying - but not necessarily with others. I think you are assuming a lot regarding the berthing incidents you are talking about. I am sure that none of us here know the true situation. It could just as easily be that Chrystal booked OPT first - or were indeed prepared to pay more for it in a bidding war :) P&O are known for organising their World Cruises well - but they are also known for trying to save a dollar wherever they can :rolleyes:

Before even thinking about new terminals for Sydney - firstly the authorities who would have to pay for it ( via our taxes) would have to think about it's purpose. At the moment, the "long term users" ie P&O AUD and Princess are (or will be ) catered for by the permanent terminal to be built at White Bay (it's suitability for that is another matter for discussion). The rest of the ships expected over the next couple of seasons are merely "blow ins" - nobody is going to fund a multi-million $ terminal to satisfy the passing whims of a bunch of modern day carpetbaggers - especially in these times when International funding is drying up.

It is more important to ensure that the permanent supporters of cruising in Australia - P&O and Princess have everything needed to further the industry in a sustainable way. The visitors will have to scrap over what's left.

Barry

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[quote name='bazzaw']Sutho


The rest of the ships expected over the next couple of seasons are merely "blow ins" - nobody is going to fund a multi-million $ terminal to satisfy the passing whims of a bunch of modern day carpetbaggers - especially in these times when International funding is drying up.

It is more important to ensure that the permanent supporters of cruising in Australia - P&O and Princess have everything needed to further the industry in a sustainable way. The visitors will have to scrap over what's left.

Barry[/quote]


Barry

How could you call Royal Carribean/Celebrity a "blow in" ???? They have got three ships operating out of Sydney this year with over thirty"visits" and next year they will have more ships and I think more than forty or fifty"visits" and I dont think any will fit under the bridge (as also the Carnival ships will not and not to mention the Diamond Princess) so just to take care of the "permanent supporters" doesnt really wash. Perhaps as I mentioned in an earlier post if they were to flick some of the retaurantsand upgrade the OPT then the this may alleviate the problem a somewhat. Given the restaurants would pay a fair bit in rent( that only benefits whoever runs the OPT) surely thousands of extra tourists spending their money in Sydney would be more beneficial to the overall community.

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The Darling Harbour side poses a massive problem as I think the Carnival Australia group said they do not want a cruise terminal that side of the bridge. It is inevitable that the day will come that P&O Australia will have ships too big to fit under the bridge. I remember a news report where P&O Australia stated something like they do not support Darling Harbour investments as the ships are only getting bigger.

Already October and November 2012 is almost completely booked with cruise ship visits at Circular Quay. All of the ships there bring in the tourist dollars, people travel here to catch them, they book hotels, spend money in the restaurants. Its a big money boom for Sydney and Australia.

By the looks of it the reality of the situation is that the cruise boom has started and we will be getting bigger ships. If something is not done about a terminal then Sydney will miss out.

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A quick internet search reveals the Sydney Harbour Bridge air draft is 52m. Any cruise ship taller than that cannot go under. Oriana's air draft is 54.8m, the Sun class can just manage to fit under due to their squashed funnel.

As said Rhapsody of the Seas wont fit under, neither will Radiance of the Seas. Carnival Spirit wont fit under. The Costa ships to visit here will not fit under, the Celebrity ships wont fit under, the HAL's Vista class wont fit under. The old P&O Canberra did not fit under. Even the Titanic was built taller than the Sydney Harbour Bridge would allow under.

My prediction is that in 10 years time P&O Australia will not have their current fleet and that their fleet then will be too big to fit under the bridge. With only one passenger terminal east of the bridge it is inevitable that there is going to be serious cruise ship berthing problems for Sydney that will effect us. Fleet Base East will be out as there is no terminal even though the dock was designed for high intense traffic for loading supplies, transfer of personell, parking of vehicles in a one way traffic movement using both gates. There is even an overflow parking area near the medical centre main gate. The Navy will not give up their docks for cruise ships. (Although the idea of building a cruise terminal there with docking fees going directly to the Navy might appeal to them).

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Interesting read from today's CW.... :)

[I]Carnival Commodore is confident
Ann Sherry is edging closer to her two career-defining goals of shared use of Garden Island and 1 million passengers by 2020.
INTRODUCED by Carnival Australia’s new corporate affairs director and Partnership Summit MC Peter Taylor as “Commodore” Ann Sherry, the CEO was upbeat about the local cruise industry’s progress.
“We’ve worked together to make cruising a state of mind – it’s almost become a mass movement,” she said.
According to Sherry, Australia can continue its world-leading growth, which last year grew at a faster rate than in the US, UK and Germany.
“Merely equalling their market penetration is not our end goal – the sky’s the limit,” she said.
Sherry said her goal for Australian cruise passenger numbers to reach 1 million by 2020 would be achieved “more than likely much earlier than that”.
Sydney’s infrastructure problems were also looking closer to a positive outcome.
Although she defined the progress as “glacial”, Sherry believes next year will be the year that the Australian Navy agrees to allow cruise ships to dock at its base on Garden Island.
“I am pleased to report progress in relation to Sydney, with White Bay in the west, an upgraded Overseas Passenger Terminal in the east, and hopefully shared use of Garden Island – we wait for that with much
anticipation.”
Speaking privately to media on Tuesday afternoon, Sherry said she had two main objectives for 2012.
“We’re seeing greater confidence in agents selling cruises and selling the right cruises, so the first thing I want to see is more cruising sold better by more agents.
“And number two – to sort Garden Island out.”[/I]

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[SIZE="2"]If a new cruise terminal is ever built in Sydney, my pick is that it will be in Botany Bay, alongside the airport somewhere, with its own designated access .
Sydney Harbour will be useless for the servicing of the huge ships that are to come .
Sydney Harbour will then only be available for the wealthy , who can afford to cruise in on the smaller ships that Sydney Harbour can handle.

[/SIZE]

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Davod

There is a reason that Botany Bay has never been developed as a port as such - ever since convict times. It is quite shallow and has sandy shores all around it. I am not sure that there would even be a place for a cruise terminal in Botany bay anywhere - have a look at Google maps to see what I mean. I know some large oil tankers go in there - but the whole foreshore is basically either industrial or sandy beach .

Barry

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[quote name='Kiwi Kruzer'][SIZE=2]If a new cruise terminal is ever built in Sydney, my pick is that it will be in Botany Bay, alongside the airport somewhere, with its own designated access .[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Sydney Harbour will be useless for the servicing of the huge ships that are to come .[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Sydney Harbour will then only be available for the wealthy , who can afford to cruise in on the smaller ships that Sydney Harbour can handle.[/SIZE]

[/quote]

There is already a container port there which can handle large container ships. If a terminal were to be built in its place then the entire port would have to be relocated to Newcastle or Wollongong and transfer it by rail to Sydney.

I believe the RAN submarines have authorisation to enter Botany Bay submerged as the depths at the centre allow them to go under ships. I have even heard that getting a sub close to the airport is good for their training.

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[quote name='Sutho']There is already a container port there which can handle large container ships. If a terminal were to be built in its place then the entire port would have to be relocated to Newcastle or Wollongong and transfer it by rail to Sydney.
[/quote]

Not in its place, but as an expansion. They're already expanding it aside from this.

Not as attractive as Sydney Harbour, though that's not different from many other worldwide ports being amongst the industrial traffic.

Personally, if harbour land is so attractive, the cruise lines could band together and buy back the Finger Wharf. Great location, very convenient for transfers and access, and established facilities.

Of course, it's not as cheap as what they want which is the government to do by paying the upfront cost and they just pay berthing fees. But then you can only take what you're given... Edited by The_Big_M

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[quote name='Sutho']There is already a container port there which can handle large container ships. If a terminal were to be built in its place then the entire port would have to be relocated to Newcastle or Wollongong and transfer it by rail to Sydney.

I believe the RAN submarines have authorisation to enter Botany Bay submerged as the depths at the centre allow them to go under ships. I have even heard that getting a sub close to the airport is good for their training.[/QUOTE]

As an ex-RAN submariner myself, I have extreme difficulty believing what you have said . The keel of an old Oberon boat is at about 16 metres at periscope depth. :) Don't know about the Collins class - but would suspect it to be similar.

"Botany Bay has a roughly circular shape of 6-7 km diameter and natural water depths that generally are less than 5 m but reach 10 m at the entrance and locally have been enhanced by dredging to 20 m.b.s.l.(metres below sea level). "

Interesting study of Botany bay here [url]http://www.precisioninfo.com/rivers_org/au/archive/?doc_id=26[/url]

of course, with enough money , I guess that ANYTHING can be done :)

It is interesting to see that the Carnival CEO seems so positive about the joint sharing of GI - we will have to wait and see what happens.


Barry Edited by bazzaw

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[quote name='The_Big_M']

Of course, it's not as cheap as what they want which is the government to do by paying the upfront cost and they just pay berthing fees. [/QUOTE]

You have hit the nail on the head here !! :)


Barry

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