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HAL is starting to lose me


jaguarstyper

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Well don't be really confused. 14 days at 3000 is reasonable but 7 at 3000 is not. I was comparing them to show how crazy the dec 2013 cruise price is.

 

I'm confused--$107 per day per person for housing and feeding you and you think that's high????? Compared to what--may I ask?

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Thanks for this insight. I just posted a blog on a similar topic...Princess Lover consider HAL, mainly for the itinerary....seems like many are getting disillusioned with our primary lines, but all the changes are happening on every major line....so not many options but to pick the ports you like best and go with that line...no matter what. But I would miss all the great Princess perks we get!!

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I'm confused--$107 per day per person for housing and feeding you and you think that's high????? Compared to what--may I ask?

 

Well either ncl or ccl are cheaper and offer? Is a 7 day cruise for $3000 on hal that much better? Double the price. Given this thread it does not seem hal is worth double at least out of tampa.

 

What justifies hals price on the dec 1 2013 tampa cruise?

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Well either ncl or ccl are cheaper and offer? Is a 7 day cruise for $3000 on hal that much better? Double the price. Given this thread it does not seem hal is worth double at least out of tampa.

 

What justifies hals price on the dec 1 2013 tampa cruise?

The problem with comparing HAL out of Tampa is like comparing an apple to a carrot :D HAL's Ryndam which is the only ship that sails out of Tampa is much smaller than the CCL, RCI or NCL ships sailing out of Tampa. The balconies on the Ryndam are Suites so HAL wants far more money. Every cabin on the Ryndam is priced higher because HAL thinks they can charge more. If HAL had a Vista class going out of Tampa the prices would be competitive with the other three.

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Well either ncl or ccl are cheaper and offer? Is a 7 day cruise for $3000 on hal that much better? Double the price. Given this thread it does not seem hal is worth double at least out of tampa.

 

What justifies hals price on the dec 1 2013 tampa cruise?

 

There was a day when HAL was worth double, but those days are over. It will be interesting to see if they are able to get those prices. They've got too many ship issues and cutbacks going on IMO, to get a premium price for a cabin.

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Well, here's a different opinion. I'm doing the same thing many of you are saying, but it's with me and Celebrity. I've done more than 30 cruises on Celebrity and have started looking at HAL because Celebrity has really fallen off a lot, imho, in many areas. We looked at HAL because we thought it would give us a perspective on another cruise line, and we want to see how it compares with Celebrity and we thought it was a line that would compare evenly with that line.

 

Now, I'm beginning to wonder if the saying "familiarity breeds contempt" works with cruise lines? Maybe cruising with only one line causes the negative aspects of that line to become more obvious? Would things look better if one would mix it up, so to speak, and cruise on different lines? I know when we would take an occasional cruise on RCI or Carnival ( OK lines but food and service can in no way compare with Celebrity), the negatives on that line would put things into a better perspective concerning Celebrity.

 

Believe me, Celebrity is no cup of tea in many aspects and their decline in many areas has become blatantly obvious. While the food is still good, the upkeep of some of their ships is not at all good and the service is not as good as it once was. To be honest, the decline in many aspects on Celebrity, especially in the food department, has caused us to stop dining in the MDR and we now dine only in their specialty restaurants.

 

But don't switch from HAL thinking it's going to be a panacea for all complaints against that line. Every line has been going down the proverbial commode for a long time now, all in the interest of corporate profits.

 

You make a very valid point IMO concerning mixing it up with different lines - as a frequent cruiser, we like to rotate through the majority of mass lines for exactly that reason. We find by not sailing exclusively on one line, we don't notice the changes as much or experience the same entertainment over and over, and the menus seem new and fresh by sailing on multiple lines. We sail on Carnival, Princess,RCCL, HAL, X, and NCL; there are things we like on each as well as things we dislike, but I'm sure we are much happier sailing this way than if we sailed exculsively on one line.

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What is the reference to charging for water in MDR?

 

Just off the Oosterdam so here our version of the "nickel and dime you death" incidence regarding water in the MDR. The first night the waiter asked if we wanted still or sparkling water. This was a new surprise to be given this choice.

 

Only after we chose the sparkling water did the waiter mention there later would be a (I believe) $3.50 charge. That did feel like a cheap shot so this was a negative. We declined that offer, but he went ahead said the first night was free anyway, even if we did not want this choice again. He definitely told us there was no charge for the non-sparkling water, which we chose because we had no interest in regular sparkling water. And that was the end of it.

 

I believe they might be using the Natura system that we see now in many restaurants that "creates" sparkling water from regular water - no one mentioned it was "filtered" per se, which probably happens when it goes through the Natura system. This is not bottled water, just regular water that gets treated with some form of carbonation - a gimmick which I assume HAL wanted to recoup for its extra costs.

 

DH had his free double expresso every night, except one or two nights out of 28 when they said the machine was not working. Served regular coffee instead.

 

In our 28 days we can't think of a single time besides that initial sparkling water incident where any tried to sell us anything that we had previously enjoyed for free. We have been cruising HAL only for four years but did get up to 4 star Mariner with this last cruise and leave on another HAL 50 day cruise in a month. Best of all is feeling you can sit in any lounge and listen to the entertainment and not be pressured to buy drinks. No nickel or diming there either.

 

Each HAL cruise had its momentary lapses, quirks and craziness, but overall we have not seen any change in over-all quality or decline in service. We do see variables in some things on one ship and some things on others, but we go for the overall travel experience and the inherent comforts we always have found on these comfy, old-style ships.

 

HAL ships just feel right for us overall and primarily because they offer the best mainline itineraries out there. so we eagerly look forward to getting back on board in just a short while again. And then in a few months I get a Prinsendam cruise for a milestone birthday - Barcelona to Athens via the Black Sea. I could not be happier. The only size my DH had to worry about when choosing this gift was, the smaller the ship the better! :p

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Every since Carnival Corp. purchased HAL and the rest of their lines I don't know of one that hasn't declined in all aspects. HAL used to be premium to me but now it seems there is not a nickels worth of difference among them. Minimum entertainment, lower quality food, service declining, etc.. Unless you have an itinerary you would really like go on, go for the cheapest price. Actually I have received better service on Carnival lately.

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Every since Carnival Corp. purchased HAL and the rest of their lines I don't know of one that hasn't declined in all aspects.

You honestly date the start of the decline as long ago as 1989? :eek:

Yours is the only post I have seen that puts the decline that far back. What was so much better in the 80's than the 90's and first few years of the 2000's? The things lacking that even those of us who go back decades comment on have only been gone over the last decade or so.

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Guest LoveMyBoxer

We have no loyalty to any cruise line. That being said, unless you are going to sail on a higher-end "all inclusive" line, all mainstream lines are going this way. Having to keep fares low because of competition, has all lines charging extra for other things.

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We have no loyalty to any cruise line. That being said, unless you are going to sail on a higher-end "all inclusive" line, all mainstream lines are going this way. Having to keep fares low because of competition, has all lines charging extra for other things.

 

Interestingly we've migrated our interest to the luxury lines and have gotten one exceptional cruise on Silversea under our belts but truth is even the "loyalists" for the luxury lines are commenting, sometimes even complaining, on what they see as degradation of their luxury line of choice. It's the same kind of things we discuss here like food quality, level of service, entertainment, ship maintenance, and so on. Switch out the ship and cruise line names and the comments are pretty much the same.

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My favourite cruiseline is HAL but I am also a platinum on Princess after 3 longer cruises.

 

My last four cruises have been with HAL (3 on Noordam and 1 on Nieuw Amsterdam). What has disappointed me the most was the MDR experience on the last three HAL cruises. I am a working person who suffers through a two-hour commute every day to a stressful job. By the time I get home (around 7:00 p.m.), the last thing I want to do is cook a meal and usually end up eating something quick in front of the TV set. One of the reasons I enjoy cruising is that I have a chance to experience having a nice and leisurely dinner every night. I always book a late-seating in the MDR. What I loved the most about eating in the MDR was my interaction with the wait staff. After the first night, my waiters knew what I was allergic to and what ingredients in food I didn't like. By the time I got to the table every evening, my favourite sparkling water with lemon was waiting for me. All this has now disappeared because of the cuts in staffing. The wait staff can no longer provided the kind of service that I became accustomed to. You can see the the frustration in some of the experienced waiters' demeanour. They want to provide first-class service but that is no longer possible. I would happily pay more for the cruise if the staffing levels went back to what they were.

 

I will be sailing on the Emerald Princess in January. It will interesting to see if the dining experience has gone downhill on Princess as well.

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My favourite cruiseline is HAL but I am also a platinum on Princess after 3 longer cruises.

 

My last four cruises have been with HAL (3 on Noordam and 1 on Nieuw Amsterdam). What has disappointed me the most was the MDR experience on the last three HAL cruises. I am a working person who suffers through a two-hour commute every day to a stressful job. By the time I get home (around 7:00 p.m.), the last thing I want to do is cook a meal and usually end up eating something quick in front of the TV set. One of the reasons I enjoy cruising is that I have a chance to experience having a nice and leisurely dinner every night. I always book a late-seating in the MDR. What I loved the most about eating in the MDR was my interaction with the wait staff. After the first night, my waiters knew what I was allergic to and what ingredients in food I didn't like. By the time I got to the table every evening, my favourite sparkling water with lemon was waiting for me. All this has now disappeared because of the cuts in staffing. The wait staff can no longer provided the kind of service that I became accustomed to. You can see the the frustration in some of the experienced waiters' demeanour. They want to provide first-class service but that is no longer possible. I would happily pay more for the cruise if the staffing levels went back to what they were.

 

I will be sailing on the Emerald Princess in January. It will interesting to see if the dining experience has gone downhill on Princess as well.

I imagine it will be the same on Princess. I do like Princess and they seem to do some things better then HAL. I do not care if the waiter knows I drink a lot of water or anything like that. These people have a job to do and I don't think that a mainline cruise line can provide that service. What I expect is to be addressed fairly quickly after coming in. To wait and half hour to get a menu like I did on the first trip to the MDR on the N.A. recently is not acceptable. On Princess the waiters handle all the drink and wine orders and they seem to do that well. When on the N.A I saw a wine steward standing in the dining room with a napkin folded over their arm doing nothing. Meanwhile I had to ask several people to get the wine steward to my table. It would be nice if they would be a little more aware of what is going on. I purchased a 5 bottle wine package on my 14 day cruise and did not get thru it all because they were so slow to refill. I hear you on the stressful job. I'm in exactly the same boat with the same commute. I'm "lucky" if it only lasts 2 hours.

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We have no loyalty to any cruise line. That being said, unless you are going to sail on a higher-end "all inclusive" line, all mainstream lines are going this way. Having to keep fares low because of competition, has all lines charging extra for other things.

 

Ahhhhh.....I see you sailed the Meridan several times -- my first ship when she was the Galileo Galilei (1977) when she still went around the world as one of the last purely passenger ships plying the globe. ($800 - 60 days -inside bunk bed cabin - baths down the hall - food was inclusive, but that was all. :cool:)

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Two times on Crystal at easily twice the price for even their lowest-end ocean view cabin, the only things we found better than HAL were: far better quality of interior decor, and occasionally better food, Nobu fee restaurant and fresh sushi bar.

 

However, at half the price we found most other features better on HAL: larger cabins with better layout, far better bathrooms, degree of crew/staff courtesies and attitudes; food choice variety; room service; shore excursions; enrichment lectures; variety of entertainment venues; passenger mix, itinerary choices.

 

Sometimes even on luxury lines, you don't get what you pays for.

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Guest LoveMyBoxer
Ahhhhh.....I see you sailed the Meridan several times -- my first ship when she was the Galileo Galilei (1977) when she still went around the world as one of the last purely passenger ships plying the globe. ($800 - 60 days -inside bunk bed cabin - baths down the hall - food was inclusive, but that was all. :cool:)

 

She was actually one of our favorite ships! First time in an inside, which was huge, second time in one of the cabins that had floor-to-ceiling windows and the last time we were upgraded to one of the suites! When we sailed, everything was included (minus drinks). At the time you had to pay to join the Captain's Club and at each of the meets with the Captain, there were only about 10 people!

 

All lines are trying to stay competitive by keeping their prices low. Something has to give! For new cruisers, they won't know the difference, but for those of us who have been sailing for quite a while, we do notice the differences.

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Just got back from a week on the Westerdam. In keeping with some of the topics in this thread I offer the following observations:

]On a side note - we, as consumers, have gotten exactly what we demanded. We voted with our dollars and the vote was clear, "Give us the cheapest ticket possible!" The travel industry responded, providing what the consumers were demanding. [/color][/size][/font]

In other words, we got exactly what we demanded - cheap. As some others have noted, the cost in actual dollars hasn't gone up and in some cases has dropped considerably. In REAL dollars the cost of air travel and cruising has plummeted. We demanded cheap, we got cheap and now we are complaining that the industry is nickle and diming us to death. Not really, in my opinion. It is simply that we are now being forced to pay for services that would still be included in the base cost IF we had allowed the companies to increase their base costs sufficiently to continue to offer the formerly included services at no additional charge.

Bottom line: you get what you pay for. You are going to pay for it one way or another. Higher base price includes those services. Lower base price and you pay for the services through "add on" fees. Either way, you pay for what you get.

 

Years ago my late father saw a card he liked so much he had 100 printed to give out.

It showed two cows in a pasture and said " If you want sweet fresh hay, you have to pay the price for it. If, however, you don't care if it's been through the cow, I can get it for you cheaper!."

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Two times on Crystal at easily twice the price for even their lowest-end ocean view cabin, the only things we found better than HAL were: far better quality of interior decor, and occasionally better food, Nobu fee restaurant and fresh sushi bar.

 

However, at half the price we found most other features better on HAL: larger cabins with better layout, far better bathrooms, degree of crew/staff courtesies and attitudes; food choice variety; room service; shore excursions; enrichment lectures; variety of entertainment venues; passenger mix, itinerary choices.

 

Sometimes even on luxury lines, you don't get what you pays for.

 

I agree with you. We sailed 2 times on a Silversea ship and the first time it was fabulous in every way.

The second time on a new ship, it was 10 days old,the experience was quite different.

Cabin was fine but steward not so. Service on pooldeck quite bad.

Management in diningroom awfull. Food just ok.

Out butler did her best but it took several days to get us things we requested.

Overal the second cruise with SS did not meet our expectations at all.

We had much better service on our 3 HAL cruises we took after the second SS cruise.

 

Even on luxury lines things are not always perfect or even good.

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You honestly date the start of the decline as long ago as 1989? :eek:

 

Yours is the only post I have seen that puts the decline that far back. What was so much better in the 80's than the 90's and first few years of the 2000's? The things lacking that even those of us who go back decades comment on have only been gone over the last decade or so.

Don't remember 1989 as the start of decline. In May 2004 on the Westerdam was the first time I am aware that HAL took most of the crew benefits away and started adding tips on the S&S account. You can't argue that overall service and food quality wasn't much better before then.

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Don't remember 1989 as the start of decline.

Then it's unfair, as well as incorrect, to say "Every [sic] since Carnival purchased ...", as that happened in 1989.

Carnival Corporation did a lot to save HAL from oblivion.

 

I will be the first to agree that HAL is not what she used to be, especially in the last 7-8 years or so. But let's be honest about when that started. When Carnival Corp purchased HAL is not it.

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I agree Ruth, I've done some reading on this subject and its pretty obvious that if Carnival had not acquired Holland America, they would no longer be in business today. They were a model case study for poor management, lack of vision, fiscal irresponsibility and other ineptitudes.

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Per Ruth C.'s query, I can't pinpoint a specific date, but I'm pretty sure it was before 7-8 years ago. However, I'm talking about cruise lines in general, not about HAL in particular.

 

In a specific sense, I don't think Carnival's takeover of HAL was a plan to lead to cutbacks in service. However, I do think it was a consequence. The activities of that period, when lines were consolidating under the umbrella of only a couple of corporate entities, IMO, led to many of the changes we see today:

 

1. Cost cutting started -- corporations are notorious for mergers followed by "synergies" (areas where costs can be cut as a result of duplication of jobs, greater clout in purchasing, changes in staffing roles/responsibilities etc., etc.)

 

2. The ship building frenzy started -- look at how many ships (and how many berths in those smaller ships) were available in 1989 versus how many are available now. Ships have to sell all those berths week after week. They can't raise their prices much; there is too much competition for the same routes.

 

3. "Added cost" options began multiplying like mushrooms. I remember sailing in the days before art auctions, licensed (and agressive) spa facilities, specialty dining, and all the other things -- most of which were introduced more than 7-8 years ago.

 

 

Some of the things I miss from earlier days of cruising:

 

In the MDR: salads dressed at the table; vegetables and sides served individually; silver changed out for every course (and more courses on the menu); more expensive proteins and richer/more complex preparations; more food prepared tableside.

 

Around the ship: faultless maintenance of ship facilities, cabin stewards that were real stewards and not just maids with 30 cabins to clean; fewer "for profit" activities; more live music.

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I will be the first to agree that HAL is not what she used to be, especially in the last 7-8 years or so. But let's be honest about when that started. When Carnival Corp purchased HAL is not it.

 

:rolleyes: Hmmm you make a very valid point Ruth that timeline of 7 - 8 yrs sort of falls into when Mr Stein Cruse became President and Chief Operating Officer which was Dec 1, 2004.... it certainly makes one wonder

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