HAL is starting to lose me

[RuthC]

:rolleyes: Hmmm you make a very valid point Ruth that timeline of 7 - 8 yrs sort of falls into when Mr Stein Cruse became President and Chief Operating Officer which was Dec 1, 2004.... it certainly makes one wonder

I didn't want to put it that way, but it is true that the Lanterman years were very different from the Kruse years have been. The change at the top brought a new direction and focus, to be sure.

[KirkNC]

To me the problem is that HAL is not charging enough for their cruises. That may come as a shock but if you go back 8-10 years ago and look at cruise pricing, factor in inflation, we are not paying enough to retain all the things we want or used to enjoy.

[vicocala]

To me the problem is that HAL is not charging enough for their cruises. That may come as a shock but if you go back 8-10 years ago and look at cruise pricing, factor in inflation, we are not paying enough to retain all the things we want or used to enjoy.

 

But where there has been inflation, it has been offset by an increase in supply and demand for cabin space which has increased revenues by spreading fixed costs over more cabins as well as more shore excursions, gambling and alcohol sales, photographs, cabanas, etc.

[SwissMyst]

We enjoy HAL now as excellent value for the price. It has it all: comfortable ships; great itineraries; excellent staffing from top to bottom; traditional charms; and the right price.

 

I would change nothing today, even the occasionally personally offending decor because I recognize "that costs money" and I can live with it in exchange for today's present pricing structures. I love Holland America Cruise Lines.

 

Cruising for us is about travel and HAL gets us there and back with considerable comfort, courtesy and price-consideration. We don't cruise just to cruise. We cruise to get places we haven't seen before. And we cruise to do this with more comfort than making land arrangements, packing and unpacking constantly, going through airport hassles, easing jet-lag and getting breaks that let us occasionally just sit on the deck sharing the timeless seas with time immemorial, while we catch our breath before our new adventure in the next port.

[Randyk47]

To me the problem is that HAL is not charging enough for their cruises. That may come as a shock but if you go back 8-10 years ago and look at cruise pricing, factor in inflation, we are not paying enough to retain all the things we want or used to enjoy.

 

Good point. I just happen to have the paperwork from every cruise I've taken so I pulled our first HAL cruise on the Ryndam back in January 1995. Using an inflation calculator, one based on actual inflation rates from 1995 to present, and I see the cruise today would cost me 46% more than 1995. So then I go and pull the fares for a similar cruise for this coming March on the same itinerary, cabin category, and ship class (an S class out of Ft Lauderdale) and it's only about 20% more. Simple math tells me fares have not kept up with inflation, for all sorts of reasons I suppose, but something has got to give.

 

As to when we first noticed the "slip" in Holland America I guess I'd say around 2004. Granted we'd not cruised for three years because of job demands and a move from Virginia to Texas. We actually kind of wrote it off at the time as maybe not remembering correctly. Post cruise we really started talking about the differences but decided the other factors were that we were on a new Vista ship, which was a big difference from the S class we were so used to, and that we'd gone with a 7-day cruise rather than our typical and preferred 10 to 14-day cruises. Went back the next year and things were better on the Volendam but still some changes. A number of cruises in a row after that and noticed progressively more slippage in service, entertainment, food quality, etc. After last year we decided to start to look elsewhere, clearly Holland America was not what we were used to and at least not what we wanted in a cruise vacation. That's not to say Holland America is some awful, overpriced cruise line that's barely acceptable, that's simply not true. For us it's a judgment call. Does Holland America still offer us the quality vacation and cruise experience we've come to expect and want? The answer unfortunately for us is probably no.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

To me the problem is that HAL is not charging enough for their cruises. That may come as a shock but if you go back 8-10 years ago and look at cruise pricing, factor in inflation, we are not paying enough to retain all the things we want or used to enjoy.

 

I agree 110% with your comment but, what has happened to cause HAL to drop their prices so much?, and in the end giving away cabins. I am seeing $349 PP for a 7 day cruise on the Westerdam which is insane. Other cruise lines truly are now having to drop that low and in many case are sold out early. What has HAL done differently to cause people not to book with them? I have some ideas, and know that how they market to begin with is one failing point. Early pricing is another major down fall. They come out of the gate 18 months out with stupid high prices where other lines come out with more competitive prices people end up booking those cruises because HAL held out early thinking they can sell high. In the end HAL has to give the cabins away. There was a time I think HAL felt that they could make up revenue with on board spending sell it to the client cheaper and they will spend more money on board. That is no longer the case they bought it cheap and have no intention of spending any more money. I have several other thoughts on the subject but it would take far more time ;)

[topcop]

We just got back from a Eurodam cruise to the eastern Caribbean. This was our second trip on the Eurodam but have taken many cruises on the Westerdam.

 

We too have noticed that changes since our fist cruise in 1991. Service is definitely not the same, particularly when it comes to dining.

 

It is obvious there is insufficient staff and those poor waiters and their assistants are run ragged. The first night in anytime dining we were there close to three hours. It was about 45 minutes between the first two courses and the service of our final course. Another night it was 2.5 hours. Only on the final night were they really efficient.

 

They never came back to ask if everything was okay. And I don't blame them. They have too many people to serve.

 

But, if we want to take a cruise at a very low rate I guess we have to give up something on the other end. If we want special, personalized service like we received in the "old days" we will have to pay for it. That is why Azamara, Seabourne, etc., have much higher prices.

[SwissMyst]

Seeing prices advertised is not the same as what is available when you call --- oops, those loss leader cabins have already been booked but perhaps you can be interested in something else? All cruise line do this, not just HAL.

 

Additionally with the global economy improving in many of the countries that have traditionally provided a bulk of cruise line staffing needs in the past, fewer need to accept the grueling alternative of working on cruise ships resulting in less experienced and trained staff, higher turnovers and reasonably expected staff shortages.

 

The fact we expect low-paid staff to be bi-lingual as a start is remarkable when we flush and comfortable westerners often flounder badly outside of our own native language. If a staff person's English is as good as my Tagalog or Bahasa, I consider myself well-served.

[jaguarstyper]

Well, it used to be if you wanted to take a cruise at a very low rate, you chose Royal Caribbean, Carnival, Costa, or Norwegian. If you wanted something a bit more special with a higher level of service and more refinement, you booked with HAL, Celebrity or maybe Princess. Its sad that these lines that once represented something a little more special have become just another cruise line competeting at the lowest end of the market. I guess I'll need to set my sights a little higher in the future.

[jaguarstyper]

Seeing prices advertised is not the same as what is available when you call --- oops, those loss leader cabins have already been booked but perhaps you can be interested in something else? All cruise line do this, not just HAL.

 

Additionally with the global economy improving in many of the countries that have traditionally provided a bulk of cruise line staffing needs in the past, fewer need to accept the grueling alternative of working on cruise ships resulting in less experienced and trained staff, higher turnovers and reasonably expected staff shortages.

 

The fact we expect low-paid staff to be bi-lingual as a start is remarkable when we flush and comfortable westerners often flounder badly outside of our own native language. If a staff person's English is as good as my Tagalog or Bahasa, I consider myself well-served.

It might have something to do with that fact that English is the world's third most popular language and Tagalog makes the list somewhere around 40th and Bahasa is not actually a languange, but the Maylay and Indonesian word for "language". The language of Indonesians is actually called Bahasa Indonesia, which comes in at 14th on the list.

 

So, expecting us to be able to speak their language is for more unlikley than expecting them to speak our language. I have read that the competition for cruiseline jobs is actually quite fierce and they are in very, very high demand. I have no doubt the staff cutbacks are financially driven and not resource driven.

[coka]

I agree 110% with your comment but, what has happened to cause HAL to drop their prices so much?, and in the end giving away cabins. I am seeing $349 PP for a 7 day cruise on the Westerdam which is insane. Other cruise lines truly are now having to drop that low and in many case are sold out early. What has HAL done differently to cause people not to book with them? I have some ideas, and know that how they market to begin with is one failing point. Early pricing is another major down fall. They come out of the gate 18 months out with stupid high prices where other lines come out with more competitive prices people end up booking those cruises because HAL held out early thinking they can sell high. In the end HAL has to give the cabins away. There was a time I think HAL felt that they could make up revenue with on board spending sell it to the client cheaper and they will spend more money on board. That is no longer the case they bought it cheap and have no intention of spending any more money. I have several other thoughts on the subject but it would take far more time ;)

 

For me, the pricing has caused me to consider HAL. A few years ago I sailed the Eurodam for a good price as they did not charge 200 percent for solo (back then) in comparison to other lines I sail. I enjoyed the new experience. Because the line felt a bit more relaxed onboard I thought it a good choice for Bermuda on the Veendam with my husband. The Veendam had a better price than than my first line of choice. While searching cruises for February the Westerdam indeed had an insane price as mentioned above. That price caused me to look further and I saw that their suite price is less than if I booked a suite on my line of choice. I do admit to wondering if the Westerdam is haunted or not! Even so, all cruise lines are finding ways to attract new passengers at the expense of not being able to do what they have done in the past.

 

Laffnvegas, I have followed your reviews over the years, and I love them! You are so upbeat, honest, and knowledgeable. We are so lucky to be cruising, aren't we?:D

 

coka

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Thanks coka :)

[Bearnaise]

It might have something to do with that fact that English is the world's third most popular language and Tagalog makes the list somewhere around 40th and Bahasa is not actually a languange, but the Maylay and Indonesian word for "language". The language of Indonesians is actually called Bahasa Indonesia, which comes in at 14th on the list.

English is the most popular language in terms of countries where it is at least one of the national tongues. Or maybe Spanish has that honor, I'm not sure.

 

However, it is not correct that we require Indonesians to be bilingual. In most cases, they're at least trilingual. Bahasa Indonesia is a national tongue, as Mandarin Chinese is in China, but it's usually not the native tongue for many Indonesians. For instance, Balinese people will speak Balinese and Bahasa Indonesia before they learn English. Unlike Chinese dialects, however, Balinese and Bahasa Indonesia are as different from each other as Balinese and English (actually Bahasa Indonesia has much more in common with English because of the mutual alphabet).

[Hawaiidan]

To me the problem is that HAL is not charging enough for their cruises. That may come as a shock but if you go back 8-10 years ago and look at cruise pricing, factor in inflation, we are not paying enough to retain all the things we want or used to enjoy.

 

In 1998 a 14 day cruise to Hawaii was costing $2699. Today the adverts are showing the same sailing $1199 !

 

My observation is that prices for ocean view and below cabins has fallen drasticaly to get new clients while veranda and above has soared to almost luxury cruise prices.

 

So both directions hook new and sock it to the regulars

[jaguarstyper]

English is the most popular language in terms of countries where it is at least one of the national tongues. Or maybe Spanish has that honor, I'm not sure.

English is third in terms of the number of people in the world that speak it as their native (first)language. Mandarin is #1 Spanish is #2.

[cruiseblue]

This thread makes me nervous especially since it will be longer cruise for me this coming Monday sailing (10 days to s.caribe).

My first time so we shall see...

[dr.dawg]

i first noticed the beginning decline in my hawaii cruise in 2005. stale flower arrangements, silk flowers creeping in, confusion in the lido at dinner. etc. and it has become much worse. my mdr experience on t'giving last november was outrageously bad; bad food, waiters not delivering the right food to the right persons, don't even mention the poor desserts. oh, it was just awful. haven't eaten in mdr since. staff used to escort you to your stateroom at boarding; haven't seen that in a while. you just find your own way. down down and down. ever dined in lido for dinner and checked out desserts? leftovers that look worse than garbage.

 

i have one hal cruise booked -- may 3 -- ftlaud to montreal. i'm not looking forward to it. and i may cancel before final payment. it is on the maasdam, and the last time i was on that old tub, the toilet backed up through the bathroom floor drain -- s--- everywhere. i ask myself, why am i putting up with this or asking for more outrage?

[vicocala]

My first two cruises were in 2005 and I heard the same complaints I hear now. While the Monarch wasn't that great in October I have hopes for the Westerdam next week.

 

I should be getting a lot more than I paid for so as long as there are not toilet issues I should be good. If I find to slow a service in the MDR I will go Lido or room service or eat in port. A/C shouldn't be a real concern as I live in Florida and am used to hot and muggy. If to cold I will ask for more blankets.

 

Most of my cruises have been on Carnival. Mostly because HAL stopped going to the Caribbean shortly after my Zuiderdam cruise in 2005. I don't know for sure when they returned but I am glad they did.

 

The last four years I didn't cruise because I was working on mortgage reduction. I look forward to next week.

[C 2 C]

I have been a huge fan of HAL for the last 10 years and 11 cruises.

....I'm going to seriously start looking at the competition. ... These next two cruises will help me decide where I will be spending my future cruising dollars, and it very well might not be with HAL.

 

Any suggestions?

 

I would like to thank you for starting this thread, which for the most part has remained very civil.

 

So often a time of introspection, when expressed as a post on cruise critic, attract the trolling sharks in search of blood. It has been refreshing reading all the pages, all the comments from people who have cruised on different lines without the need to attack the person who questions the direction of a company from their own perspective.

 

We first cruised HAL on Rotterdam in 1989 and for the last time on Westerdam in 2008. Somewhere along the line we drifted away from HAL and found our home with Celebrity. Since our first cruise we have spent over four years at sea in our "seaside condo" on HAL, Princess, NCL and mostly Celebrity.

Our problem is, that despite what every cruise company thinks, we remember our best experience, and the companies, whether through cost cutting or incompetence, have changed the product that we have been trained to expect.

There is a certain amount of inertia in our decision making process. We either move towards a better product or we are pushed away by the deterioration of what we once enjoyed. The cruiselines need us more than we need them. We have a choice about where we spend our disposable income. They have to fill their ships. Get enough of us upset about the deteriorating quality of a product and they will change when we move on to the alternatives.

We are in serious need of a commitment by our favorite company that they appreciate our continuous cruising obsession. We're no longer feeling the love and we will soon be making a decision on trying an alternative cruiseline or a different type of holiday. More than anything, trying something different will be refreshing. At this point it is the company that has to prove to us that they are deserving of our continued loyalty.

[pepsigirl64]

:D I haven't taken the time to read this thread, I have only read the posts on the last page prior to me writing my 4 cents worth. I love HAL, I have been traveling with HAL for 10 years, things change, but I guess I am not very picky as I have never had an issue on HAL. They are beautiful ships, perfect size for our needs, and great service. I am thankful that we have not had an "issue" that would change our way of thinking. I have done Princess and RCCL, still prefer HAL. I guess until my room floods and I have to sleep with the fishes and eat food from take out containers then HAL is my choice.

[Cruise Fanatic]

I have been cruising since the early 80's. I will admit that back then there were alot of extras included in the fare that you paid for your passage. I will admit that not only HAL but most of the other cruise lines, are charging for items that were once free. Since I have cruised so many times, I really don't spend that much more money on the extras.

I do enjoy eating in the Pinacle, and yes I do use the bottled water, as well as the tap water. I don't play bingo, and I don't use any of the facilities of the spa.

The bottom line is....I don't get upset with having to pay for extras that are offered to me.

Its my choice.

[ansjefitnes]

i first noticed the beginning decline in my hawaii cruise in 2005. stale flower arrangements, silk flowers creeping in, confusion in the lido at dinner. etc. and it has become much worse. my mdr experience on t'giving last november was outrageously bad; bad food, waiters not delivering the right food to the right persons, don't even mention the poor desserts. oh, it was just awful. haven't eaten in mdr since. staff used to escort you to your stateroom at boarding; haven't seen that in a while. you just find your own way. down down and down. ever dined in lido for dinner and checked out desserts? leftovers that look worse than garbage.

 

i have one hal cruise booked -- may 3 -- ftlaud to montreal. i'm not looking forward to it. and i may cancel before final payment. it is on the maasdam, and the last time i was on that old tub, the toilet backed up through the bathroom floor drain -- s--- everywhere. i ask myself, why am i putting up with this or asking for more outrage?

 

Considering the way you feel about HAL i would certainly cancel your cruise for May.

[bcd2010]

Our problem is, that despite what every cruise company thinks, we remember our best experience, and the companies, whether through cost cutting or incompetence, have changed the product that we have been trained to expect.

... Get enough of us upset about the deteriorating quality of a product and they will change when we move on to the alternatives.

We are in serious need of a commitment by our favorite company that they appreciate our continuous cruising obsession.

 

It seems there are far more people accepting the downgrading of the product than moving on. It's easy (and may be true) to say that HAL is still better than the rest in it's category but "better" is not what I'm looking for. I'm willing to pay for a superior experience but I'm not given that option on HAL and other lines - product quality is being reduced in favor of low prices to fill ships. The choice for quantity over quality is legit but not the decision I choose to make.

[jaguarstyper]

I would like to thank you for starting this thread, which for the most part has remained very civil.

 

So often a time of introspection, when expressed as a post on cruise critic, attract the trolling sharks in search of blood. It has been refreshing reading all the pages, all the comments from people who have cruised on different lines without the need to attack the person who questions the direction of a company from their own perspective.

 

We first cruised HAL on Rotterdam in 1989 and for the last time on Westerdam in 2008. Somewhere along the line we drifted away from HAL and found our home with Celebrity. Since our first cruise we have spent over four years at sea in our "seaside condo" on HAL, Princess, NCL and mostly Celebrity.

Our problem is, that despite what every cruise company thinks, we remember our best experience, and the companies, whether through cost cutting or incompetence, have changed the product that we have been trained to expect.

There is a certain amount of inertia in our decision making process. We either move towards a better product or we are pushed away by the deterioration of what we once enjoyed. The cruiselines need us more than we need them. We have a choice about where we spend our disposable income. They have to fill their ships. Get enough of us upset about the deteriorating quality of a product and they will change when we move on to the alternatives.

We are in serious need of a commitment by our favorite company that they appreciate our continuous cruising obsession. We're no longer feeling the love and we will soon be making a decision on trying an alternative cruiseline or a different type of holiday. More than anything, trying something different will be refreshing. At this point it is the company that has to prove to us that they are deserving of our continued loyalty.

You are very welcome. I am also glad this thread has not denegrated into a battleground like so many others have. That was not my intent. I'm also surprised its gotten the traction that is has. I think it reaffirms my belief that HAL is poised to start losing more of its long-time loyalists.

 

There are always going to be bargain hunters looking for the lowest possible price for a cruise. That is never going to change and with the state of the economy, there are probably more than ever now. I get all that and I get that HAL needs to fill its ships by offering lower fares. But, one of the reasons I've always liked HAL was that they did not really do this in the past. They were always a little higher in price, but still reasonable. I don't ever recall seeing the prices I have been seeing offered recently. As low as $349pp for 7 night Caribbean itinerary. But, it seems that HAL has had to do this in order to fill up the boat. So, what has happened in my eyes is that HAL has lost its edge. They used to be out on the fringe of the mass marketed, low fare genre of cruising, but now they are squarley in the middle of it. Because of that, they are also being forced to reduce or do away with many of the things that set them a little bit apart from the rest of the mass market. They had a niche, which sadly, they are losing.

 

I will be on potentially my last HAL cruise in 5 more days. It just so happens to be the one that they have been offering the really low fares. What I am wondering is whether or not there will be even more cutbacks and reductions on this particular cruise due to the lower fares they were forced to collect. I'm not sure if they are really that nimble or not. But, I can say, this cruise is the one that will either make it, or break it for me as far as remaining a loyal HAL customer. I have another HAL cruise booked in May and I will not hesitate to cancel it if I feel HAL can no longer live up to my expectations.

 

Personally, I want this cruise to be great and my cruise in May to be great. I don't want to leave HAL. But, if they cannot provide a satisfactory experience to me, I will be forced to. I'm just not sure where I will end up if I decide to leave HAL. It may be that I have just played out the cruising experience all together and will do something completely different in May. A lot will be decided in the next week for me.

 

I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. A lot of great points were made and the debates were civil and informative. Very much appreciated by me.

[SwissMyst]

We found the hyper-service on Crystal ships cloying, intrusive, insincere and annoying. One of the first things we noticed on HAL ships was the service is discrete, unobtrusive, more do-it-yourself if this is what one wants, and genuinely delivered when actually in need. No, HAL service is not always perfect, but it is always serviceable. We did like Crystal's lovelier, refined decor though, but little else. HAL's current level of service suits us just fine.