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Jones Act


DougMacP
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This is a Jones Act question.....If you book an itinerary from Hawaii to Vancouver BC, THEN do the next cruise from BC to Alaska on the same ship...and disembark in Seattle have you satisfied the Jones Act requirement? A particular cruise line which shall remain nameless (hint...it owns Princess and most everything else) says no. But, it seems to me that since you are required to disembark in Vancouver BC (like most back to back cruises) and re-board wouldn't that be sufficient? Since the origin of the cruise is now in foreign country? Even thought the booking was done directly through the cruise line, the people were just informed they would be fined $300 each.

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This is a Jones Act question.....If you book an itinerary from Hawaii to Vancouver BC, THEN do the next cruise from BC to Alaska on the same ship...and disembark in Seattle have you satisfied the Jones Act requirement? A particular cruise line which shall remain nameless (hint...it owns Princess and most everything else) says no. But, it seems to me that since you are required to disembark in Vancouver BC (like most back to back cruises) and re-board wouldn't that be sufficient? Since the origin of the cruise is now in foreign country? Even thought the booking was done directly through the cruise line, the people were just informed they would be fined $300 each.

 

Sounds like the cruise line is misinformed. The Jones Act prohibits a foreign flagged ship from carrying passengers solely between two US ports. If you leave from Hawaii and end in Alaska, you are OK as long as you have stopped in Vancouver. If you have booked this as two cruises you are fine as well as you have ended in a foreign port and started in a foreign port.

 

All West Coast cruises stop in Ensenada, Vancouver, and/or Victoria to comply with the law.

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Sounds like the cruise line is misinformed. The Jones Act prohibits a foreign flagged ship from carrying passengers solely between two US ports. If you leave from Hawaii and end in Alaska, you are OK as long as you have stopped in Vancouver. If you have booked this as two cruises you are fine as well as you have ended in a foreign port and started in a foreign port.

 

All West Coast cruises stop in Ensenada, Vancouver, and/or Victoria to comply with the law.

 

Not true. It requires a stop at a far foreign port. Ensenada and Vancouver don't qualify. Again, not the Jones Act, it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act, PVSA. The Jones Act has to do with cargo, or, cabotage if you prefer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920).

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This is a Jones Act question.....If you book an itinerary from Hawaii to Vancouver BC, THEN do the next cruise from BC to Alaska on the same ship...and disembark in Seattle have you satisfied the Jones Act requirement? A particular cruise line which shall remain nameless (hint...it owns Princess and most everything else) says no. But, it seems to me that since you are required to disembark in Vancouver BC (like most back to back cruises) and re-board wouldn't that be sufficient? Since the origin of the cruise is now in foreign country? Even thought the booking was done directly through the cruise line, the people were just informed they would be fined $300 each.
First, no other cruise line owns Princess. A corporation that owns several cruise lines owns Princess.

 

Second, it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act, not the Jones Act unless you are a crew member.

 

Third, no Princess cruise embarks in Hawaii. That said, if you initially embark or eventually disembark in Vancouver, the PVSA doesn't apply. It applies only if you embark in one US city and disembark in the same or another US city.

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I often wonder why so many people reference the Jones Act when they are inquiring about the PVSA. Who is it who keeps promoting this misinformation? I explained this thing in another thread this morning. GAH!!!

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I often wonder why so many people reference the Jones Act when they are inquiring about the PVSA. Who is it who keeps promoting this misinformation? I explained this thing in another thread this morning. GAH!!!

 

Always the same question and always the same (wrong) answers. Who would have thunk it? :confused:

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.........................

Third, no Princess cruise embarks in Hawaii. That said, if you initially embark or eventually disembark in Vancouver, the PVSA doesn't apply. It applies only if you embark in one US city and disembark in the same or another US city.

 

Not what the OP said. "If you book an itinerary from Hawaii to Vancouver BC, THEN do the next cruise from BC to Alaska on the same ship...and disembark in Seattle". PVSA violation here. Very confusing as to the actual itinerary here. Hope that the OP comes back and clarifies.

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Didn't mean to confuse anyone.... It is not a Princess cruise....it is the Carnival Legend some cruising friends of mine booked for 4/19/17 and 4/30/17 Itineraries

 

Carnival used the Jones Act terminology with them explaining the "fine" of $300 months after they book. I posted this on the Princess Board...because I cruise Princess (just finished the Hawaii Circle on the Star today), and I've learned to trust the collective wisdom of this forum!

 

Thanks....appreciate all the input.

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Didn't mean to confuse anyone.... It is not a Princess cruise....it is the Carnival Legend some cruising friends of mine booked for 4/19/17 and 4/30/17 Itineraries

 

Carnival used the Jones Act terminology with them explaining the "fine" of $300 months after they book. I posted this on the Princess Board...because I cruise Princess (just finished the Hawaii Circle on the Star today), and I've learned to trust the collective wisdom of this forum!

 

Thanks....appreciate all the input.

 

If you get aboard at one US city and disembark at another US city on the same ship without an over night off of the ship at a close foreign port (Vancouver in this case), no dice. My wife tried to book a B2B re-positioning cruise a year ago on the Ruby. LA to Vancouver, then Vancouver to Ketchican and back to Seattle. I told her that wasn't going to work. Sure enough, within an hour Princess called us and the agent was asking which cruise we wanted to cancel. Bummer. :rolleyes:

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For the OP... Below is a simplified explanation of the PVSA. I don't blame you personally for having the wrong nomenclature. It is a commonly misunderstood topic. The info below is not "in depth" but should help to clarify things.

 

PVSA = Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886.

 

In theory it protects American shipping interests in relation to passenger vessels. Often confused with the Jones Act which relates to cargo.

 

If one sails from a US port and returns to that same port it is a "closed loop" type of cruise and requires - per the PVSA - to hit port in a non-US "near" foreign port such as one in Mexico or Canada. Non-US North American continent ports satisfy this requirement.

 

If one sails from a US port and completes the cruise at a different US port - for instance sailing from San Francisco through the Panama Canal and ending up in Ft. Lauderdale - then one must stop at a "far" foreign port. That is a port that is not on the North American continent - such as stopping in Cartagena, Colombia.

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First, no other cruise line owns Princess. A corporation that owns several cruise lines owns Princess.

 

Second, it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act, not the Jones Act unless you are a crew member.

 

Third, no Princess cruise embarks in Hawaii. That said, if you initially embark or eventually disembark in Vancouver, the PVSA doesn't apply. It applies only if you embark in one US city and disembark in the same or another US city.

 

The PVSA would not apply in this case. That's a closed loop cruise which does not have to visit a distant foreign port.

 

Bill

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I am quoting Pam not the OP.

 

If I am understanding correctly she said the PVSA applies if you get on in one city and disembark in the same city, OR a different city.

 

I don't believe the first part of her statement is true.

 

The OP is in violation of the PVSA with the itinerary he/she posted in post 1.

 

Bill

 

Agree. That is why I deleted my post. I re-read your post and I'm sorry to have misunderstood it. :rolleyes:

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Any chance on repealing the PVSA?

 

Considering that CLIA has stated that it's member companies see no economic benefit to revision or repeal of the PVSA, I don't see any chance.

 

Also, realize that it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act, not the "Cruise Vessel" act. PVSA also covers every ferry, commuter boat, water taxi, dinner cruise, casino boat, sightseeing or whale watching boat, or charter fishing boat in the US.

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And to answer the OP's question, CBP does not care how the multiple cruises are marketed or booked, they only care that one vessel carried the passenger from one US port to another, without calling at a "distant" foreign port. Even though you have to get off the ship during turn-around between the legs of the B2B, this is considered a "port call" to CBP. Before the PVSA was revised in the 70's or 80's, foreign flag cruise ships could only call at a US port as their origination and ending point, since passengers getting off at a US port of call would be considered transportation between those ports. The act now includes wording that the passenger must "permanently" disembark for it to be considered "transportation between ports", meaning that you have settled the bill, and you leave the ship with all luggage and belongings.

 

So, the two Carnival cruises, while each alone is legal, together violate the PVSA. Princess and HAL have some cruises where a Hawaii or Cal coastal on one ship can be combined with an Alaska trip on a second ship the same day. This is legal under PVSA. To continue on the same ship requires disembarking the ship one calendar day, with luggage, and reboarding the next calendar day.

 

And it is the cruise lines' call center personnel who incorrectly continue to refer to the Jones Act.

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Didn't mean to confuse anyone.... It is not a Princess cruise....it is the Carnival Legend some cruising friends of mine booked for 4/19/17 and 4/30/17 Itineraries

 

Carnival used the Jones Act terminology with them explaining the "fine" of $300 months after they book. I posted this on the Princess Board...because I cruise Princess (just finished the Hawaii Circle on the Star today), and I've learned to trust the collective wisdom of this forum!

 

Thanks....appreciate all the input.

It will be a violation of the PVSA. The passenger is boarding in Honolulu, and disembarking in Seattle without a port stop at a far foreign port. Vancouver is not a far foreign port. I am surprised the cruise line even accepted the bookings, as they can be fined as well as a fine for the passenger.

 

You should have posted this on the Carnival board.

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It will be a violation of the PVSA. The passenger is boarding in Honolulu, and disembarking in Seattle without a port stop at a far foreign port. Vancouver is not a far foreign port. I am surprised the cruise line even accepted the bookings, as they can be fined as well as a fine for the passenger.

 

You should have posted this on the Carnival board.

 

If I remember correctly the cruise line is the one who gets fined and they pass that cost on to the person who caused the fine.

 

Of course I could be wrong but I don't think they each get a $300 fine.

 

Bill

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Considering that CLIA has stated that it's member companies see no economic benefit to revision or repeal of the PVSA, I don't see any chance.

 

Also, realize that it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act, not the "Cruise Vessel" act. PVSA also covers every ferry, commuter boat, water taxi, dinner cruise, casino boat, sightseeing or whale watching boat, or charter fishing boat in the US.

 

It also covers aircraft as well. Had a very recent discussion with a Princess CD in which he quoted the "Jones Act" in forcing him to fly from San Francisco to Mexico City, then to Los Angeles. (Confusion between the Jones Act and the PVSA is rampant everywhere.)

 

Then I found out he was on Mexicana airlines - the airline that Princess booked him on. Mexicana cannot fly direct SFO to LAX without violating the PVSA. They have to 'change planes' in a foreign port - in this case Mexico City.

 

As to repealing it, because it applies to more than just cruise ships - no way. There was some talk several years ago, but that disappeared.

 

My big beef is how the PVSA was so 'successful' in 'protecting' the US cruise ship building industry - and the political machinations Senator Inoyue (HI) went through to get the three "Pride" ship experiment for HI off the ground back many years ago. (They actually had to use "pieces" of a trashed US built cruise ship in the new construction done in France I believe in order to "meet" the PVSA requirements for a round trip out of HI without having to go to Christmas Island.) But it effectively forces cruise lines to invest in foreign port facilities - Ensenada, Puerto Maya, BVI, Grand Cayman, etc., which could be invested in Coastal communities in the US. Would love to see some of the Gulf coast ports on a more regular basis.

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