Jump to content
Crew News

No More Deck 9 Cookouts for HAL

Recommended Posts

Returning from a long excursion today, I looked forward to the traditional Juneau cookout only to learn that new health rules require all cooking to be done in designated/certified kitchens. I verified this sad news with the Lido Manager who used to be responsible for the outside grilling.

 

Hopefully, this only affects US ports.

 

The smell of salmon grilling over charcoal will now be just a fond memory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The outdoor buffets were written up in a recent Vessel Sanitation Report for one of the HAL ships - something about not being close enough to a source of running water for server hand-washing use.

 

Agree, this is unfortunate. Maybe the newer ships can design the space to meet the sanitation regulations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the CDC write up for the poor Amsterdam which did not do so well on the last inspections :Score 86

(Other HAL ships did much better - all in the mid or high 90's - and several got the perfect 100 scores)

 

AMSTERDAM:

Item No.: 13Site: Food Service General-Lido Poolside Luau BBQ

 

Violation: A BBQ function occurred last on 25 November on the pool deck, which is not a food area. Staff explained how grills were staged next to a food employee-served buffet station. Although the area had a retractable roof, staff explained how this area is opened for the function since the function is done weekly and only weather permitting. This setup does not provide adequate protection for food and the nearest handwashing stations for the food employees were over 8 meters away.

 

Recommendation: Because of the risks for foodborne illness inherent to the food operation, ensure the supervisor or person in charge of food operations on the vessel demonstrates to VSP - during inspections and on request - knowledge of foodborne disease prevention, application of the Hazard Analysis Critical Point principles, and the food-safety guidelines in this manual. Ensure that the person in charge demonstrates this knowledge: (1) By compliance with these guidelines; (12) Identifying critical-control points in the operation from purchasing through service that when not controlled may contribute to the transmission of foodborne illness and explaining steps taken to ensure the points are controlled in accordance with the guidelines in this manual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This sounds like the inspectors were really looking for something to write up and enforce. Simple solution is to provide a portable approved hand washing station. And roll out counter refrigerator. Having refit cruise ship galleys and shore side restaurants, I would trust food from a modern cruse ship vs shore side restaurant for cleanses.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here is the CDC write up for the poor Amsterdam which did not do so well on the last inspections :Score 86

(Other HAL ships did much better - all in the mid or high 90's - and several got the perfect 100 scores)

 

AMSTERDAM:

Item No.: 13Site: Food Service General-Lido Poolside Luau BBQ

 

Violation: A BBQ function occurred last on 25 November on the pool deck, which is not a food area. Staff explained how grills were staged next to a food employee-served buffet station. Although the area had a retractable roof, staff explained how this area is opened for the function since the function is done weekly and only weather permitting. This setup does not provide adequate protection for food and the nearest handwashing stations for the food employees were over 8 meters away.

 

Recommendation: Because of the risks for foodborne illness inherent to the food operation, ensure the supervisor or person in charge of food operations on the vessel demonstrates to VSP - during inspections and on request - knowledge of foodborne disease prevention, application of the Hazard Analysis Critical Point principles, and the food-safety guidelines in this manual. Ensure that the person in charge demonstrates this knowledge: (1) By compliance with these guidelines; (12) Identifying critical-control points in the operation from purchasing through service that when not controlled may contribute to the transmission of foodborne illness and explaining steps taken to ensure the points are controlled in accordance with the guidelines in this manual.

 

This sounds like the inspectors were really looking for something to write up and enforce. Simple solution is to provide a portable approved hand washing station. And roll out counter refrigerator. Having refit cruise ship galleys and shore side restaurants, I would trust food from a modern cruse ship vs shore side restaurant for cleanses.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

Didn't do well is an understatement. Any score less than 86 is a "fail" and warrants immediate corrective action.

 

Like many of these reports, the written description doesn't really cover the infraction, and unfortunately, HAL and the Amsterdam have not submitted a Corrective Action Report since this inspection in December, and these CAR's really show the detail of infraction and the actions taken.

 

I have seen many BBQ's on ships, and have set up quite a few. I suspect that the main problem was the open roof, combined with a possible lack of covering for the food, both in the prep (cooking) area and the serving area. It would also appear that the person in charge of the BBQ did not demonstrate sufficient knowledge of food protection measures like what kind of materials are allowed, how the presentation stations should be covered/protected, and how time controls are used for food safety in a service like this. The handwash sink is a secondary concern.

 

If you read the Amsterdam's report, you will see the detail that the inspectors get to with regards to both operation and construction of the food areas on the ships. There are a couple of mentions of "slotted fasteners" in equipment. Standard slotted or Phillips head screws are not allowed on food equipment that meets USPH requirements, because you cannot clean the slots or "crosses" in the screws. There are special fasteners that must be used, and this adds to the cost of the equipment bought, if it must meet USPH standards.

 

I'm not sure the statement that all cooking must be done in "designated/certified kitchens" is correct (not doubting the poster, just the person supplying the information). Provided the equipment used meets USPH construction standards, and the food preparation and service meets USPH operational standards, I know of no reason that an outdoor BBQ would not be allowed, though the USPH is working on a revision to the VSP, that hasn't come out yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

O' the horrors, someone may have to travel 25 feet to wash their hands!

 

Another example of regulations going to the extreme.

 

This inspection was done just prior to the world cruise. We were told HAL is looking at work around for future cruises but given the timing of this report, they were unable to do anything for the WC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to hear that we can no longer smell salmon cooking on the open grills. Love that smell.

I think someone reported not to long ago that their cruise didn't have a poolside BBQ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
O' the horrors, someone may have to travel 25 feet to wash their hands! Another example of regulations going to the extreme.
Second guessing accredited professionals doing their jobs is all the rage with the kids these days.

 

 

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry to hear this. We always enjoyed the pool side BBQ. Hope they find something to correct this.

Allan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Didn't do well is an understatement. Any score less than 86 is a "fail" and warrants immediate corrective action.

 

Like many of these reports, the written description doesn't really cover the infraction, and unfortunately, HAL and the Amsterdam have not submitted a Corrective Action Report since this inspection in December, and these CAR's really show the detail of infraction and the actions taken.

 

I have seen many BBQ's on ships, and have set up quite a few. I suspect that the main problem was the open roof, combined with a possible lack of covering for the food, both in the prep (cooking) area and the serving area. It would also appear that the person in charge of the BBQ did not demonstrate sufficient knowledge of food protection measures like what kind of materials are allowed, how the presentation stations should be covered/protected, and how time controls are used for food safety in a service like this. The handwash sink is a secondary concern.

 

If you read the Amsterdam's report, you will see the detail that the inspectors get to with regards to both operation and construction of the food areas on the ships. There are a couple of mentions of "slotted fasteners" in equipment. Standard slotted or Phillips head screws are not allowed on food equipment that meets USPH requirements, because you cannot clean the slots or "crosses" in the screws. There are special fasteners that must be used, and this adds to the cost of the equipment bought, if it must meet USPH standards.

 

I'm not sure the statement that all cooking must be done in "designated/certified kitchens" is correct (not doubting the poster, just the person supplying the information). Provided the equipment used meets USPH construction standards, and the food preparation and service meets USPH operational standards, I know of no reason that an outdoor BBQ would not be allowed, though the USPH is working on a revision to the VSP, that hasn't come out yet.

 

 

I totally concur. Didn't realize there was more to the report. Slotted screws a big no no..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
O' the horrors, someone may have to travel 25 feet to wash their hands!

 

Another example of regulations going to the extreme.

 

This inspection was done just prior to the world cruise. We were told HAL is looking at work around for future cruises but given the timing of this report, they were unable to do anything for the WC.

 

All to protect your health, and why the USPH inspectors will by far prefer to eat on a cruise ship than at most local restaurants (most of them are former local/state health inspectors, and have told me they trust their standards above all others on a personal note).

 

Actually, if the ship is on a world cruise, then once it no longer calls at a US port, it does not need to meet USPH regulations, so that explanation doesn't hold water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Didn't do well is an understatement. Any score less than 86 is a "fail" and warrants immediate corrective action.

 

Like many of these reports, the written description doesn't really cover the infraction, and unfortunately, HAL and the Amsterdam have not submitted a Corrective Action Report since this inspection in December, and these CAR's really show the detail of infraction and the actions taken.

 

I have seen many BBQ's on ships, and have set up quite a few. I suspect that the main problem was the open roof, combined with a possible lack of covering for the food, both in the prep (cooking) area and the serving area. It would also appear that the person in charge of the BBQ did not demonstrate sufficient knowledge of food protection measures like what kind of materials are allowed, how the presentation stations should be covered/protected, and how time controls are used for food safety in a service like this. The handwash sink is a secondary concern.

 

If you read the Amsterdam's report, you will see the detail that the inspectors get to with regards to both operation and construction of the food areas on the ships. There are a couple of mentions of "slotted fasteners" in equipment. Standard slotted or Phillips head screws are not allowed on food equipment that meets USPH requirements, because you cannot clean the slots or "crosses" in the screws. There are special fasteners that must be used, and this adds to the cost of the equipment bought, if it must meet USPH standards.

 

I'm not sure the statement that all cooking must be done in "designated/certified kitchens" is correct (not doubting the poster, just the person supplying the information). Provided the equipment used meets USPH construction standards, and the food preparation and service meets USPH operational standards, I know of no reason that an outdoor BBQ would not be allowed, though the USPH is working on a revision to the VSP, that hasn't come out yet.

 

The mention of the retractable cover being open and presenting a hazard got me to thinking about seagulls, which are abundant in ports. Living in a seaport myself I am well aware of the presents the nasty garbage birds can leave on cars, deck chairs and any other surface that presents itself.

An open buffet in a port will never have the same appeal to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is this infraction specifically about cooking? What about the various poolside buffets that don't involve a grill?

 

On our Panama canal cruise, there were stations serving Panama buns all over the ship, definitely not near hand washing stations. I know that isn't in the US, but is that kind of thing a potential problem?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
is this infraction specifically about cooking? What about the various poolside buffets that don't involve a grill?

 

On our Panama canal cruise, there were stations serving Panama buns all over the ship, definitely not near hand washing stations. I know that isn't in the US, but is that kind of thing a potential problem?

 

Not necessarily all about cooking. It is also about protection of food being presented for self-service, or the ingredients for food prep like lettuce, onions, etc., for burgers at the cookout. I would have to have seen the stations, but if they are for passenger self-service, then there doesn't need to be a crew hand wash station nearby, but the stations would have to have covers over the buns that you would have to lift to get one. Yes, it is a potential source for cross-contamination as well as food-borne pathogens, and even if the ship is not in US waters, if it is routinely calling at US ports, it must continue to meet the VSP requirements or the USPH has the mandate to board the vessel every time it re-enters the US and do a full sanitary inspection, including interviews with passengers and crew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The mention of the retractable cover being open and presenting a hazard got me to thinking about seagulls, which are abundant in ports. Living in a seaport myself I am well aware of the presents the nasty garbage birds can leave on cars, deck chairs and any other surface that presents itself.

 

An open buffet in a port will never have the same appeal to me.

 

 

 

Oh gross! Sitting in the harbor on our boat one time, enjoying a nice lunch, a seagull flew in and grabbed some food. Yuck! They do leave gifts behind, too. 🤢

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh gross! Sitting in the harbor on our boat one time, enjoying a nice lunch, a seagull flew in and grabbed some food. Yuck! They do leave gifts behind, too. 🤢

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yeah, I was "blessed" by a gull one time sitting at an outdoor table at a pub in Wales. When it happens, people always tell you it will bring good luck. What's with that???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eight meters does not seem like too long of a trek for a hand washing station. Seven meters okay? Six?

 

I was unhappy with the Lido BBQ hygiene on our Prinsendam cruise last October. There were no sneeze guards. It was too dark to see exactly what was going on, but both cooked and uncooked meat seemed to be in room temperature plastic bins. Lid handles and serving utensils were either sticky or greasy. I went without. Did not hear of any gastro-intestinal problems, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not necessarily all about cooking. It is also about protection of food being presented for self-service, or the ingredients for food prep like lettuce, onions, etc., for burgers at the cookout. I would have to have seen the stations, but if they are for passenger self-service, then there doesn't need to be a crew hand wash station nearby, but the stations would have to have covers over the buns that you would have to lift to get one. Yes, it is a potential source for cross-contamination as well as food-borne pathogens, and even if the ship is not in US waters, if it is routinely calling at US ports, it must continue to meet the VSP requirements or the USPH has the mandate to board the vessel every time it re-enters the US and do a full sanitary inspection, including interviews with passengers and crew.

 

Thanks for the answer. I do recall that they had foil partly covering the pans of Panama buns (and I guess the ones that weren't out for serving were completely covered). But those things were taken so quickly, that there wasn't time for any germs to land on them!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does this mean the Mexican Food Kiosk is gone as well.?? or is it close enough for the washing sinks at the Dive In window ?? One of my favorite things to do on HAL is to swing by the Mexican station around 4:30 and pickup a plate of chips, salsa etc.

for a cocktail in my cabin before dinner. Say it ain't gone please !!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Second guessing accredited professionals doing their jobs is all the rage with the kids these days.

 

 

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

 

The world is full of so called professional who don't know squat. Common sense doesn't apply just their ever tighter oversight. One wonders where it ends but you soon realize it doesn't.

 

As for the kids, great, maybe there is some hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I looked forward to the traditional Juneau cookout only to learn that new health rules require all cooking to be done in designated/certified kitchens.

 

So sad, I was looking forward to this meal.:(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The mention of the retractable cover being open and presenting a hazard got me to thinking about seagulls, which are abundant in ports. Living in a seaport myself I am well aware of the presents the nasty garbage birds can leave on cars, deck chairs and any other surface that presents itself.

An open buffet in a port will never have the same appeal to me.

 

So true, and large birds leave large.....

 

This is not news, though, as this was reported on CC some months ago, at least prior to our departure for our last cruise at the end of March. On which there were no BBQs on the deck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps this will put an end to the thousands of deck barbecue related deaths. There's nothing more dangerous than picnics. That's why we fill a pump sprayer with bleach and mist people trying to have lunch on blankets by the beach. They don't always appreciate it, but it's for their own good. And, their whites have never been whiter! Also their colors... But hey, safety is our number one priority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Perhaps this will put an end to the thousands of deck barbecue related deaths. There's nothing more dangerous than picnics. That's why we fill a pump sprayer with bleach and mist people trying to have lunch on blankets by the beach. They don't always appreciate it, but it's for their own good. And, their whites have never been whiter! Also their colors... But hey, safety is our number one priority.

 

Yea, I am still trying to get my mind around the concept of helpful bureaucrats :D:cool:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So true, and large birds leave large.....

 

This is not news, though, as this was reported on CC some months ago, at least prior to our departure for our last cruise at the end of March. On which there were no BBQs on the deck.

 

 

AH -- I knew that someone had mentioned that the BBQ was gone in recent months.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yea, I am still trying to get my mind around the concept of helpful bureaucrats :D:cool:

 

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

Ronald Reagan

40th president of US (1911 - 2004)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In our County we do lot's of rodeos, outdoor concerts, the County fair, etc. Above and beyond the requirement for extra 'porta potties' the following units are used for vendors that do not have yearly approved Health Dept. food trucks, etc. These type units just get approval for the specific event / single permitting.

 

Hand wash sink: good for 300 hand washes for the culinary staff at a time between water refills, wastewater dumps:

 

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/crown-verity-cv-ehs-e-15-gallon-economy-warm-wash-portable-outdoor-hand-sink-single-bowl/255CVEHSE.html

 

Chill tables with sneeze guards (long utensils for grabbing prepped lettuce, tomatoes, etc.), & chilled with ice pans & temp.monitors:

 

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/carlisle-660608-forest-green-6-six-star-open-base-portable-food-salad-bar/2716606FG.html

 

Just 'food' for thought. Cruise ship rules might be much more stringent than local communities obviously.

 

Be well.

Bob:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disembarked Koningsdam Sunday after a 14 day Baltic cruise. There was no poolside barbecue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So true, and large birds leave large.....

 

This is not news, though, as this was reported on CC some months ago, at least prior to our departure for our last cruise at the end of March. On which there were no BBQs on the deck.

Yes, 20 days and not a single BBQ---not that I missed having one as I have never been a fan of al fresco dining.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were no poolside barbecues either on the Prinsendam last October/November, or the Zaandam in March/April. Things were advertised - such as the "gaucho barbecue" on Zaandam, but all the food was in the Lido Market. Disappointing, but I suppose it is also less work for the crew, as the Lido Market is already set up for food service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
is this infraction specifically about cooking? What about the various poolside buffets that don't involve a grill?

 

On our Panama canal cruise, there were stations serving Panama buns all over the ship, definitely not near hand washing stations. I know that isn't in the US, but is that kind of thing a potential problem?

 

I'm wondering now if this ruling will or has had an affect on the "Taco Bar?" After all, it would seem to me that the Taco Bar would fall under the same ruling............

Hubby, can you ask about the Taco Bar? IF it is still exists?

Joanie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm wondering now if this ruling will or has had an affect on the "Taco Bar?" After all, it would seem to me that the Taco Bar would fall under the same ruling............

 

Hubby, can you ask about the Taco Bar? IF it is still exists?

 

Joanie

 

The permanent location of the Taco Bar from my recollection on various ships puts it under a permanently covered area so no danger of errant fly-over deposits, and closer to hand-washing facilities, along with its necessarily awkward sneeze guard.

 

Re-use serving utensils remain a problem, and the fact that some of the food is finger food - using chips to scoop up dips. Plus there is no on-going immediate staff supervision to pick up any potential passenger misuse or contamination breaches........ If one wants to start thinking like a CDC inspector.

 

I would also hate to see that one go too, it is a great late afternoon snack assembly. But it also looks like it might meet some of the concerns CDC registered about the more informal outdoor BBQ's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm wondering now if this ruling will or has had an affect on the "Taco Bar?" After all, it would seem to me that the Taco Bar would fall under the same ruling............

 

Hubby, can you ask about the Taco Bar? IF it is still exists?

 

Joanie

 

The Taco Bar is still on the Noordam.

 

Repeating the words of the Lido Manager, the "cooking" of food is limited to designated/certified kitchens.

 

There was a private party for one of the tour groups, with appetizers, on the aft Lido deck earlier on the cruise.

 

There is a steward hovering nearby to keep the Taco Bar clean and replenished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Innlady1,

 

Was the seagull incident by any chance while docked in San Diego several years ago? I became an overnight ship "celebrity" by the entertainment a seagull provided swooping down (suddenly, as swooping birds do) and taking a chicken leg right off my plate. (I was eating lunch on the back, outside deck of the Lido.) He/she then had the nerve to land about 10 feet from me on the deck and devour the chicken meat. A number of folks saw it and we all had a great laugh. One thing nice about being on a ship is that I simply dumped my plate in the wash bin and got myself another lunch.

 

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last year (2016) the laws in at least our state changed and outdoor cooked restaurant barbecues were no longer allowed. Food can now be served outside, but it must be prepared in a certified indoor kitchen. Rules about sneeze guards have also increased for the food when served outside. Apparently the new Rules do not apply to family barbecues, only when the food is sold to the general public. At least this is the story told by restaurants effected by the changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was looking forward to seeing how they cooked the Salmon. Not that I would miss it much, we eat it a couple times a week but always looking for new techniques and preparations.

 

Wonder if they could cook it outside (with proper cover) and serve it inside where tacos are. Might be an excuse for cost cutting because if they really wanted to serve it there would be a way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote=Sequim88;53259523

Wonder if they could cook it outside (with proper cover) and serve it inside where tacos are. Might be an excuse for cost cutting because if they really wanted to serve it there would be a way.

 

Maybe HAL did not want the screaming headlines: CDC reports HAL staff with unwashed hands serves pigeon poop outdoor buffets to their passengers. You know how the media works these days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There were no poolside barbecues either on the Prinsendam last October/November...

I attended at least two poolside BBQ's on the Athens to Ft. Lauderdale legs,Vict0riann. I detailed my disappointment with the "Mediterranean BBQ" leaving Larnaca above and on my live blog. I pigged out at the "Parrillada con Paella BBQ" leaving Lisbon. My On Location also shows "Kebab Under the Stars after Haifa. That was a fantastic cruise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The world is full of so called professional who don't know squat.
Incorrect. There are some occasional instances of accredited professionals who aren't up to the standards of accreditation. There world is not "full" of such people. The generalized and callous disregard for the expertise and diligence of what is overwhelming a set of good people a good job is petty and offensive.

 

Common sense doesn't apply just their ever tighter oversight.
Common sense is indeed what applies to such oversight. People need to avoid mistaking their own personal sense for common sense. Common sense can legitimately only stem from a preponderance of informed and accountable perspective.

 

Who's next on the hit list for generalized and callous disregard for expertise and diligence? Perhaps the good folks who inspect aircraft? It's really quite chilling to see such casually disparaging statements being thrown around about people who protect the public health.

 

Maybe HAL did not want the screaming headlines: CDC reports HAL staff with unwashed hands serves pigeon poop outdoor buffets to their passengers. You know how the media works these days.
Good point. The way many people causally latch onto any mud-slinging presented by the news (or semi-news sources), even, "Holland America doesn't take action in response to CDC warning about danger," could directly affect shareholder value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×