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No More Deck 9 Cookouts for HAL


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I must be missing something here, but if a person is in Bermuda, is it not anticipated they will be in the port exploring? Isn't that why people go to Bermuda? Activities on board are usually less when you are in port.

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Okay, charge us and call t he deck barbeque an ' on board' excurrsion. I would have paid for som thing to be offered during our Bermuda cruise.

 

But No, they offered nothing special.

 

You might be on to something. Maybe a local catering company could come on board, who has a set up that meets the necessary food service requirements.

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You might be on to something. Maybe a local catering company could come on board, who has a set up that meets the necessary food service requirements.
.

 

No thank you. Uggh :(

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I must be missing something here, but if a person is in Bermuda, is it not anticipated they will be in the port exploring? Isn't that why people go to Bermuda? Activities on board are usually less when you are in port.

 

 

SeeING YOu asked ,, I took that cruise for the time on the ship. the destination was not the 'big draw for rme . I have been to Bermuda many times in the past. I booked to sail alone and a good friend surprised me and chose to also book a ca in. I had little intent to spend much time off the ship. choices....... THAT was my choice I wanted time on he ship, not wandering Bermuda. . So, yes, you were missing some thing by thinking all must want the same thing and allow ing for no alternative choice . "Less activities as you state it is one thing, None i s a different thing. I think my well over 100 cruises has taught me a great deal about cruising, thank you. I am very, very knowledgeable ab out 'usual ship board life'.

Edited by sail7seas
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I must be missing something here, but if a person is in Bermuda, is it not anticipated they will be in the port exploring? Isn't that why people go to Bermuda? (b maybe some, people maybe most people NO A LL Activities on board are usually less when you are in port.
SeeING YOU ASKED,,

 

 

 

I took that cruise for the time on the ship. the destination was not the 'big draw for me, . I had been to Bermuda many times in the past. I booked to sail alone and a good friend surprised me and chose to also book a ca in. I had little intent to spend much time off the ship. choices....... THAT wads my choice. So, yes, you were missing some thing by thinking all must want the same thing and allow ing for no alternative choice ."Less activities as you state it is one thing, None i s a different thing. I think my well over 100 cruises has taught me a great deal about cruising, thank you. sigh

(bold is mine)

Edited by sail7seas
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It is unclear to me how anyone can say that HAL is using these health regulations as a means to reduce costs. That is not to say that HAL, and all other mass market cruise lines, have not been cutting costs. They have. It is simply that I do not possess any knowledge in the health and safety arena concerning food prep and safety. I suspect that there are very few posters on this board that do possess this knowledge.
I wouldn't be so sure. There are a number of us; folks who either have been responsible for managing food operations in the past, or folks who have been responsible for administering safety regulations that included (or were predominantly) food safety-related. It's a PITA sometimes to offer that expertise on Cruise Critic, though, and more so on some forums here than others. It's another example of what OlsSalt referred to as, "Facts [getting] trumped by another agenda." How often do we see people with no engineering background refusing to accept what a ship's engineer posts about ship engineering and instead insisting that their passenger's-view of the why the cruise ship systems are operating a certain way is accurate? How often do we see people, whose principal experience in the consumer marketplace is as a consumer, challenging what people with marketing experience post about marketing? So rather than only very few posters possessing this knowledge I believe the reality is that only very few posters offer their knowledge.

 

Obviously HAL does not see a commensurate reward to bringing the barbeque back compared to the cost. Simple business economics.
Precisely, and that always boils down to our purchasing behaviors as consumers: If we passengers placed a higher value on that activity, so much so that enough revenue would be adversely affected by it, then that would drive the cruise line to perhaps pursue the changes to equipment and layout.

 

 

How much verifiable cause and effect research goes into some/many of the VSP requirements?
Since all statistics are subject to interpretation, there's always going to be a measure of discretion in whatever standards are established. Someone (opposed) can always say that the data is being misconstrued or abused. To understand the reality you have to dig into the specific individuals and why they would be driven to apply their discretion a certain way. The way most such systems are set up, those folks are driven by avoiding risk, as they should be. Some people consider it "fun" to take vapid pot-shots at good people doing their jobs, applying hard-earned knowledge, experience and analytical skills in the best interest of the constituency they're supposed to serve. It's a shame.

 

None of us have access to HAL head office discussions.
Precisely, so besmirching those making the decisions is nothing but rude personal attacks on people who aren't here to defend themselves.

 

By the same logic none of us knows it is NOT ...
So the question is, when you don't know, what does your character drive you to do? When you really don't know anything about them, do you assume people are malevolent? ... or do you assume best intentions until you have proof to the contrary? Edited by bUU
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I wouldn't be so sure. There are a number of us; folks who either have been responsible for managing food operations in the past, or folks who have been responsible for administering safety regulations that included (or were predominantly) food safety-related. It's a PITA sometimes to offer that expertise on Cruise Critic, though, and more so on some forums here than others. It's another example of what OlsSalt referred to as, "Facts [getting] trumped by another agenda." How often do we see people with no engineering background refusing to accept what a ship's engineer posts about ship engineering and instead insisting that their passenger's-view of the why the cruise ship systems are operating a certain way is accurate? How often do we see people, whose principal experience in the consumer marketplace is as a consumer, challenging what people with marketing experience post about marketing? So rather than only very few posters possessing this knowledge I believe the reality is that only very few posters offer their knowledge.

 

Precisely, and that always boils down to our purchasing behaviors as consumers: If we passengers placed a higher value on that activity, so much so that enough revenue would be adversely affected by it, then that would drive the cruise line to perhaps pursue the changes to equipment and layout.

 

 

Since all statistics are subject to interpretation, there's always going to be a measure of discretion in whatever standards are established. Someone (opposed) can always say that the data is being misconstrued or abused. To understand the reality you have to dig into the specific individuals and why they would be driven to apply their discretion a certain way. The way most such systems are set up, those folks are driven by avoiding risk, as they should be. Some people consider it "fun" to take vapid pot-shots at good people doing their jobs, applying hard-earned knowledge, experience and analytical skills in the best interest of the constituency they're supposed to serve. It's a shame.

 

Precisely, so besmirching those making the decisions is nothing but rude personal attacks on people who aren't here to defend themselves.

 

So the question is, when you don't know, what does your character drive you to do? When you really don't know anything about them, do you assume people are malevolent? ... or do you assume best intentions until you have proof to the contrary?

 

 

When one does not know, I think it reasonable to observe and compare behavior with gthe samd goal in mind . We HAVE seen huge cut backs as money saving methods. If eliminaitng something in other areas is done for money saving, it is e likely money saving factors into many other features that are eliminated. observe like behavior and reasons for it.

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HAL has used health-related issues to justify quite a few recent changes...especially in their Lido Buffets (many items are now only handled by servers) and with the elimination of the on-deck BBQ buffets and even the large buffet brunches in the MDR! If one asks you will be told its in the best health interests of everyone to implement these changes.

 

On the other hand, we cruise many other cruise lines who "miraculously" do not seem to be required to make similar changes. For example, the expansive Horizon Court Buffets (their Lido area) on Princess does not seem to have any kind of similar restrictions. In fact, their newest Royal Class ships have large spacious buffet areas where nearly everything is self-service. You want a plate full of bacon...you just take it! You want to fill your plate with chicken, steak, fish...you just take it...with no lines and no begging of servers. Now one might think that this means that Princess would have a lot more health problems...especially Norovirus. But according the CDC Statistics they have fewer major incidents. In 2017, of the 9 reported Noro outbreaks (in the entire cruise industry) 5 were on HAL ships! The good news is that so-far in 2018 HAL has no reported issues (that have been posted) while Princess does have 1 instance of Noro reporting.

 

Why is this happening on HAL? Not sure anyone knows for sure, except that its long been argued that most Noro issues are carried aboard by passengers (likely contracting the bugs while in travel status). If that is true it seems that the answer is to put all cruise passengers into 72 hour quarantine prior to allowing them on a ship :) I guess HAL would also argue that the elimination of fresh squeezed OJ in the Lido and the use of boxed (commercial) eggs for omelets and scrambled eggs is all health related.

 

Hank

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When one does not know, I think it reasonable to observe and compare behavior with gthe samd goal in mind . We HAVE seen huge cut backs as money saving methods. If eliminaitng something in other areas is done for money saving, it is e likely money saving factors into many other features that are eliminated. observe like behavior and reasons for it.

 

When costs for goods and services in the back of the house go up, are cuts elsewhere somewhere in the front of the house just something that will naturally follow in order to to maintain the relative value of the consumer entry price?

 

CCL 2017 Annual Report states costs of labor was one factor have increased. This always puts pressure on the bottom line - seniority compensation, competition for labor, and increasing reward for the many "hard-working" ships personnel everyone readily admit deserve more renumeration.

 

Rather than seeing "cuts" to some passenger services as punitive, or out to get the consumer, it is better to see them a part of that curious sliding scale all businesses face when expenses go up that may be hard to recoup simply by raising prices on the consumer.

 

Again a pitch to use the post-cruise evaluation to register what "lost" services and benefits you would like to have come back, which would not mind losing and what price increases you would be willing to absorb. When enough people say they want the libraries back, or the enrichment lectures back or the outdoor buffets back, no smoking anywhere, (etc), ............ it the job of management to find a way to make this work.

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When one does not know, I think it reasonable to observe and compare behavior with gthe samd goal in mind .

 

Which cruise line are you comparing this cruise line to?

 

If you are just comparing it to your expectations and allowing your frustration that things aren't being done your way guide your analysis and defend your accusations against those making the decisions that you don't like, how is that different from making baseless negative assumptions about people that you really know nothing about?

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

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This sez me: Some dude got a BIG FAT $Bonus$ for cutting expenses. HQ probably afraid of driving potential cruisers to the competition with $Fare$ increases, so there goes the BBQ... and the Librarian. Want FOOD and lots of it and $$$ be damned?? Oceania? Crystal??

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Which cruise line are you comparing this cruise line to?

 

If you are just comparing it to your expectations and allowing your frustration that things aren't being done your way guide your analysis and defend your accusations against those making the decisions that you don't like, how is that different from making baseless negative assumptions about people that you really know nothing about?

 

I am comparing HAL to HAL

 

 

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

 

 

 

 

HAL to HAL

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This sez me: Some dude got a BIG FAT $Bonus$ for cutting expenses. HQ probably afraid of driving potential cruisers to the competition with $Fare$ increases, so there goes the BBQ... and the Librarian. Want FOOD and lots of it and $$$ be damned?? Oceania? Crystal??

 

Don't count on BBQ's on Oceania. Never saw one on our 14 day cruise and we had plenty (more than planned) sea days. As to lots of food? Sure, lots of food. But, I prefer quality over quantity.

 

Can't comment on Crystal as I haven't been on it yet, but based on rafinmd's live threads, it sounds quite nice.

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I still shake my head when I see everyone talking about corporate greed in the cruise industry. The true measure of how well a company is doing is return on investment. Can I make more money investing my millions somewhere else, or here with a cruise line. The answer is in most cases, yes, you could make more money elsewhere. Shipping is a capital intensive industry, so it needs huge amounts of capital to build the assets (ships) needed to operate the business. You have to lure investors in with a good ROI to get them to tie up their capital for long periods of time. I have yet to see a quarterly report that shows more than a median ROI for a cruise line. So, of course, they are trying to contain cost while also maintaining a price line that they feel will attract the most customers.

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I’m scratching my head on 9 pages about a BBQ? Really?

I have been on eight cruise lines. I dont remember anyone but HAL having one other than Viking having a grill going one night with fish. It was not good.

Truthfully the food smells better than it tastes because it is generally over cooked. Grilled food should be cooked to order and this is not. The cheap thin pieces of chewy steak, chicken are not very good . The salmon was over cooked. Baked potatoes and corn on the cob. Is this special?

I do remember one from fifteen years ago when the Oosterdam was new. They had a beautiful table of desserts out which added a nice touch. Haven’t seen a dessert extravaganza on Holland America since.

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Although I'll miss the deck BBQ in Juneau, now I can go to Hangar on the Wharf for dinner and not feel like I'm missing the party !

I note 'The Expected Ambiance' suffers when cost-cutting outweighs possible $Fare$ increases. Whether it be BBQ's, live music poolside, rock-climbing walls or whatnot, if the customers aren't happy eventually they will spread the word that 'it wasn't worth it....' no matter how inexpensive or luxurious a cruise was billed. We cruise HAL, for now anyway.

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I still shake my head when I see everyone talking about corporate greed in the cruise industry. The true measure of how well a company is doing is return on investment. Can I make more money investing my millions somewhere else, or here with a cruise line. The answer is in most cases, yes, you could make more money elsewhere. Shipping is a capital intensive industry, so it needs huge amounts of capital to build the assets (ships) needed to operate the business. You have to lure investors in with a good ROI to get them to tie up their capital for long periods of time. I have yet to see a quarterly report that shows more than a median ROI for a cruise line. So, of course, they are trying to contain cost while also maintaining a price line that they feel will attract the most customers.

 

Your posts are always welcome here.

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HAL to HAL
So completely ignoring how things have changed over time with regard to practically everything. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

This post may have been entered by voice recognition. Please excuse any typographical errors.

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I’m scratching my head on 9 pages about a BBQ? Really?
Things not being how one personally wants them doesn't mean that someone else is doing something wrong - it is truly mind-blowing to see some adults unwilling to admit that, and instead willing to say mean things about good people doing a good job, under cover of online anonymity - things that they would never say face to face to those managers where anyone else could see them saying such things.

 

I note 'The Expected Ambiance' suffers when cost-cutting outweighs possible $Fare$ increases.
Yet what we are talking about these days is more so how annoying it is that we have to book over a year in advance to get our cabin choice, how the cruise line keeps building bigger and bigger ships (yet still can fill them), etc. If there was any "outweighing" going on, these things wouldn't be.

 

So I don't think there is much of a correlation between fare changes over time and "expected ambiance". Expectations appear to be a completely independent variable, at least with regard to the loudest naysayers.

 

Your posts are always welcome here.
Everyone's posts are always welcome here, even those that make baseless claims about greed.

 

 

This post may have been entered by voice recognition. Please excuse any typographical errors.

Edited by bUU
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