Mandatory Tipping ant

[sparks1093]

18 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course "it's money"!

 

Money is the reason people work on cruise ships, and money is what cheapskates who ride on cruise ships want to keep for themselves.

 

The service charges on NCL  are still removable ,  which qualifies them as  voluntary tips;  it is just that NCL did not want it to be too easy for their passengers to remove them, so they make them do it in writing, after the cruise is over.  Does this say something about what NCL thinks about the generosity of their passengers?

I was still participating on the NCL board when that change happened. People were removing the service charges in droves in protest of changes made by the then new CEO and that was his solution to the problem, probably reasoning by making it more difficult to remove the service charges it would reduce the number of people doing so. 

[Texas Tillie]

2 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I was still participating on the NCL board when that change happened. People were removing the service charges in droves in protest of changes made by the then new CEO and that was his solution to the problem, probably reasoning by making it more difficult to remove the service charges it would reduce the number of people doing so. 

 

That tells me more about the kind of people who choose NCL than the company's policy.

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I was still participating on the NCL board when that change happened. People were removing the service charges in droves in protest of changes made by the then new CEO and that was his solution to the problem, probably reasoning by making it more difficult to remove the service charges it would reduce the number of people doing so. 

 

I suspect it was not so much a “protest of changes” as a simple protest against parting with a few dollars.  Stiffing the crew is not the way to let the CEO know you are concerned.

[Nebr.cruiser]

We never remove the gratuity charge.  Just got back from a Celebrity cruise and when I found our steward the last day and handed him an extra tip in an envelope, he looked astounded and said, "Thank you.  You left your tip on though".  

 

I was very surprised that he seemed to think it was so unusual to get some 'extra'.  We aways add some extra for the steward and would only not do that if they were very sub-par, which has never happened in 35+ cruises.

[navybankerteacher]

35 minutes ago, Nebr.cruiser said:

We never remove the gratuity charge.  Just got back from a Celebrity cruise and when I found our steward the last day and handed him an extra tip in an envelope, he looked astounded and said, "Thank you.  You left your tip on though".  

 

I was very surprised that he seemed to think it was so unusual to get some 'extra'.  We aways add some extra for the steward and would only not do that if they were very sub-par, which has never happened in 35+ cruises.

 

This reflects the change in the cruising demographic.  Until a dozen or so years ago cruising was essentially a “high end” vacation activity. With the drive to fill the many thousands of bunks on the very many, very large ships coming on line, the cruise lines have striven to hold down fares - quite successfully, although at significant cost to the overall quality of the experience.

 

The fact is that a growing proportion of cruise customers are stretching their vacation budgets; and understandably are reluctant to add to the auto-tips (assuming that they even leave those in place).

[Nebr.cruiser]

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

This reflects the change in the cruising demographic.  Until a dozen or so years ago cruising was essentially a “high end” vacation activity. With the drive to fill the many thousands of bunks on the very many, very large ships coming on line, the cruise lines have striven to hold down fares - quite successfully, although at significant cost to the overall quality of the experience.

 

The fact is that a growing proportion of cruise customers are stretching their vacation budgets; and understandably are reluctant to add to the auto-tips (assuming that they even leave those in place).

We did get what I considered a very good price, including free grats and OBC.  I can see what you are saying.

[navybankerteacher]

On 11/27/2018 at 7:44 PM, cb at sea said:

There is no need to add additional tip, unless you want to.  Tips on drinks are added at 18%...that seems more than enough unless you're getting table service.

The daily tips added to your account cover the cabin attendant, waiters, ass't waiters and head waiter.   Give more on your last night if you feel the need to....otherwise, you've done your duty.

 

That 18% added to a drink’s price is NOT a tip. Tips are optional payments above what is due for the service or product.  That 18% is simply padding, so the cruise line can get more from you for your drink than the price they advertise.  Honest establishments would refer to such a built-in price hike like that 18% as a “service charge”, because it is certainly not a tip or a gratuity.

[sloopsailor]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

That 18% added to a drink’s price is NOT a tip. Tips are optional payments above what is due for the service or product.  That 18% is simply padding, so the cruise line can get more from you for your drink than the price they advertise.  Honest establishments would refer to such a built-in price hike like that 18% as a “service charge”, because it is certainly not a tip or a gratuity.

 

That 18% goes to the bar staff, not the cruise line's pocket. Unfounded conspiracy theories are just that - unfounded. 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by sloopsailor

[sparks1093]

3 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

I suspect it was not so much a “protest of changes” as a simple protest against parting with a few dollars.  Stiffing the crew is not the way to let the CEO know you are concerned.

It is possible but people were very vocal on the boards regarding what they were doing and exactly why they were doing it.

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

That 18% added to a drink’s price is NOT a tip. Tips are optional payments above what is due for the service or product.  That 18% is simply padding, so the cruise line can get more from you for your drink than the price they advertise.  Honest establishments would refer to such a built-in price hike like that 18% as a “service charge”, because it is certainly not a tip or a gratuity.

It's no different than a restaurant adding a gratuity for a large party, really. It's a gratuity and AFAIK if one objected to it then it could be removed from each bill.

[navybankerteacher]

1 minute ago, sloopsailor said:

 

That 18% goes to the bar staff, not the cruise line's pocket. Unfounded conspiracy theories are just that - unfounded. 

 

 

 

Yes, but the fact that it is mandatory makes it a service charge and not a tip or a gratuity.  To the extent it goes to the bar staff only means that it is part of the salary paid to the bar staff.

 

And, if it goes to the “bar staff” and not the bar tender who mixed the drink, it really goes to the cruise line, who benefit from not having to pay the bar staff as much out of their pocket.

 

That 18% means that a drink advertised at $10 really costs $11.80.

[navybankerteacher]

1 minute ago, sparks1093 said:

It's no different than a restaurant adding a gratuity for a large party, really. It's a gratuity and AFAIK if one objected to it then it could be removed from each bill.

 

The crucial point is whether it CAN be removed.  If it can be, it is a gratuity.  If it cannot be, it is simply padding.  When it comes to drinks on board ship (which is what we are talking about here) it cannot be removed.

 

 

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

The crucial point is whether it CAN be removed.  If it can be, it is a gratuity.  If it cannot be, it is simply padding.  When it comes to drinks on board ship (which is what we are talking about here) it cannot be removed.

 

 

I think the crucial point is actually who gets it. If it goes to the crew then it's a gratuity. But in any event I'm leaving it in place so I hardly care.

[navybankerteacher]

4 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I think the crucial point is actually who gets it. If it goes to the crew then it's a gratuity. But in any event I'm leaving it in place so I hardly care.

 

Actually, you are not “leaving it in place” - you have been charged that amount, like it or not.

 

I suggest you look up definitions for “tip” and “gratuity” - as opposed to “service charge”.

 

[sparks1093]

55 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

Actually, you are not “leaving it in place” - you have been charged that amount, like it or not.

 

I suggest you look up definitions for “tip” and “gratuity” - as opposed to “service charge”.

 

I'm aware of the definitions, thanks, but as I said as long as it goes to the crew beyond that I don't care. It could be they call it a gratuity so the folks from certain countries don't have to pay taxes on the money and I'm good with that, too. 

[sloopsailor]

13 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I'm aware of the definitions, thanks, but as I said as long as it goes to the crew beyond that I don't care. It could be they call it a gratuity so the folks from certain countries don't have to pay taxes on the money and I'm good with that, too. 

 

Exactly. People who get their knickers in a bunch over what something is called have too much free time on their hands. I don't care if they call it a service charge, a gratuity, a gift, a stipend, a perk, a contribution, a reward, a token, a donation, or any other name, as long as the bar staff gets it - and I have zero doubt that they do (otherwise, the bar staff would be pretty annoyed and probably not renew their contracts), I am fine with it being added to the bar bill. That it can't be removed is even better because it prevents the cheapskates from stiffing the staff.  

Edited December 2, 2018 by sloopsailor

[MicCanberra]

Or they could just pay the staff properly so they do not have to really on the tips as well, The bar staff may be fine but what of the other staff, like room stewards etc. The cost to the customer would be around the same.

[sloopsailor]

1 hour ago, MicCanberra said:

Or they could just pay the staff properly so they do not have to really on the tips as well, The bar staff may be fine but what of the other staff, like room stewards etc. The cost to the customer would be around the same.

 

"Or..."

 

But they don't, so your argument is moot. If they paid "the staff properly" (whatever that means), people would be complaining about the higher cost of cruise fare instead of complaining of having to deal with tips. The cruise fare, as many, many people have already pointed out many, many times, would have to be higher than the fare PLUS the tips for the simple reason that many of the staff currently do not get taxed in their home countries on tip income, so would end up with less take home unless their salaries were increased  even more to compensate. That, plus the fees they pay to the agencies they work with to get employed, which are a percentage of the SALARIED income, all would lower their take home unless fares were raised much more than the standard fare plus the gratuities. 

 

No one comes out ahead when gratuities are included in the fare - not the cruise line, not the staff, and certainly not the customers. The only people who get any benefit are the cheapskates who gripe and moan about having to pay gratuities. They benefit only by saving themselves from their distaste for tipping. But they end up paying more in base fares in the end.

 

This is simple math, based completely on the reality of the situations the staff must deal with at home. In order to satisfy your selfish desire to eliminate gratuities,  the staff could  end up suffering lower take home to satisfy your personal, "it's all about me", preferences.  

Edited December 2, 2018 by sloopsailor

[DirtyDawg]

7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

This reflects the change in the cruising demographic.  Until a dozen or so years ago cruising was essentially a “high end” vacation activity. With the drive to fill the many thousands of bunks on the very many, very large ships coming on line, the cruise lines have striven to hold down fares - quite successfully, although at significant cost to the overall quality of the experience.

 

The fact is that a growing proportion of cruise customers are stretching their vacation budgets; and understandably are reluctant to add to the auto-tips (assuming that they even leave those in place).

But I have read head on CC that one of the reasons the cruise lines changed from the old envelope system, in the days when it was a "high end" vacation was that many, many cruisers skipped the last night in the MDR and didn't tip the crew appropriately.

 

Perhaps the decline in tipping was a bit earlier than a dozen or so years ago and many of those upper-end cruisers were as cheap or cheaper than the dregs who cruise today. 

 

[navybankerteacher]

15 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

But I have read head on CC that one of the reasons the cruise lines changed from the old envelope system, in the days when it was a "high end" vacation was that many, many cruisers skipped the last night in the MDR and didn't tip the crew appropriately.

 

Perhaps the decline in tipping was a bit earlier than a dozen or so years ago and many of those upper-end cruisers were as cheap or cheaper than the dregs who cruise today. 

 

 

The old “envelopes” system worked, apparently quite well, until about 15 years ago. It may be coincidental, but the shift to auto-tips occurred at about the same time - around 2000 to 2005 - when cruising became really mass market.

 

Not saying that the wealthier cruisers of early years were more generous, but they clearly did not have to scrimp and watch the pennies as much;  so they did not have as strong an incentive to stiff the crew. Pretty much through the twentieth century that envelope system seemed to work.

[DirtyDawg]

On 11/30/2018 at 8:19 PM, navybankerteacher said:

 

You fail to grasp the point that for the gratuities to be treated as gratuities (and therefore not taxable income) they MUST be subject to being removed. If they are built into the fare, they would not be voluntary - and therefore not gratuities —- which, by definition, are voluntary - and therefor necessarily subject to removal.

 

 

 

Hello navybankerteacher, 

In Canada, where I am from, gratuities are included in taxable income. I believe they are also included in the U.S. Is there a special tax arrangement with the maritime industry that make gratuities excluded from taxable income for cruise ship employees? 

 

 

 

 

[Texas Tillie]

1 hour ago, DirtyDawg said:

 

Hello navybankerteacher, 

In Canada, where I am from, gratuities are included in taxable income. I believe they are also included in the U.S. Is there a special tax arrangement with the maritime industry that make gratuities excluded from taxable income for cruise ship employees? 

 

The one country I know about where tips are not taxed is The Philippines. We know how many crew members are from there.

 

 

 

[MicCanberra]

3 hours ago, sloopsailor said:

 

"Or..."

 

But they don't, so your argument is moot. If they paid "the staff properly" (whatever that means), people would be complaining about the higher cost of cruise fare instead of complaining of having to deal with tips. The cruise fare, as many, many people have already pointed out many, many times, would have to be higher than the fare PLUS the tips for the simple reason that many of the staff currently do not get taxed in their home countries on tip income, so would end up with less take home unless their salaries were increased  even more to compensate. That, plus the fees they pay to the agencies they work with to get employed, which are a percentage of the SALARIED income, all would lower their take home unless fares were raised much more than the standard fare plus the gratuities. 

 

No one comes out ahead when gratuities are included in the fare - not the cruise line, not the staff, and certainly not the customers. The only people who get any benefit are the cheapskates who gripe and moan about having to pay gratuities. They benefit only by saving themselves from their distaste for tipping. But they end up paying more in base fares in the end.

 

This is simple math, based completely on the reality of the situations the staff must deal with at home. In order to satisfy your selfish desire to eliminate gratuities,  the staff could  end up suffering lower take home to satisfy your personal, "it's all about me", preferences.  

I never said I wanted to get rid of them, I was just proposing the alternative, which works well in Australia and will work just as well in the UK when re-introduced.

The cruise fares are similar to what they were 10 years ago, something must have given in that time (I can mention quite a few things) and as you state, the fares would go up if included. Well if it does, that would also stop the cheapskates from cruising. It seems to me you want to keep cruising for the cheapest price and who can blame you, but your love for protecting the take home pay of the staff is not the real reason you don't want it included.

[sloopsailor]

3 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

I never said I wanted to get rid of them, I was just proposing the alternative, which works well in Australia and will work just as well in the UK when re-introduced.

The cruise fares are similar to what they were 10 years ago, something must have given in that time (I can mention quite a few things) and as you state, the fares would go up if included. Well if it does, that would also stop the cheapskates from cruising. It seems to me you want to keep cruising for the cheapest price and who can blame you, but your love for protecting the take home pay of the staff is not the real reason you don't want it included.

 

I want to cruise at a price that is fair to everyone, including the staff. That is why I have absolutely zero problem with mandatory gratuities. The fare is kept as low as is reasonably possible, and the staff earns what they consider fair wages. If the cruise lines decided to include gratuities in the base fare, I would have no problem with that as well, acknowledging that the fares will be slightly higher than the original fare plus gratuities. I would consider that a worth while cost of caring for my fellow humans who make my cruises comfortable. 

 

I think we agree on most of these issues. I think we only disagree on the amount of changes we each think are needed. 

[MicCanberra]

20 minutes ago, sloopsailor said:

 

I want to cruise at a price that is fair to everyone, including the staff. That is why I have absolutely zero problem with mandatory gratuities. The fare is kept as low as is reasonably possible, and the staff earns what they consider fair wages. If the cruise lines decided to include gratuities in the base fare, I would have no problem with that as well, acknowledging that the fares will be slightly higher than the original fare plus gratuities. I would consider that a worth while cost of caring for my fellow humans who make my cruises comfortable. 

 

I think we agree on most of these issues. I think we only disagree on the amount of changes we each think are needed. 

Okay, that makes much more sense. I too want to cruise for as cheap a price as possible and to get bang for my buck, but not to the detriment of anyone else, staff included.