Reliability of ships

[John Bull]

8 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

 

Going with Marella, you are possibly on a fly cruise. Personally, if on a fly cruise, I would be more concerned with the plane getting me to the ship, as you probably arrive day of sailing.

 

 Hi-de-hi Heidi,

 

The big advantage with Marella cruises (and many of P&O and Fred Olsen) is that they're fly-cruise packages. Those cruise lines charter aircraft to fly passengers out & home. So the aircraft can be re-scheduled by the cruise line to meet circumstances like Discovery's current predicament.

 

JB 

[John Bull]

2 hours ago, Suzycruisezy said:

......He also assured us that we could transfer everything we've paid so far to a land holiday.

 

Thanks again for the helpful comments above, might help both of us decide to gamble it. It could be her last holiday, that's why it's so important and no stress. X

 

 

Only vaguely relevant ............  

Months before one Med cruise that we'd booked, Royal Caribbean substituted Alexandria to Athens, due to public unrest in Egypt.

By the time the cruise came around Egypt had quietened down.

We sailed into Athens - on the day of a national strike. 

Your cruise isn't til May.

 

Or if TUI are willing to transfer your deposit to a land resort they'd surely be willing to transfer it to another of their ships.

They've got half-a-dozen

 

JB 

[Suzycruisezy]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

If I'm reading this correctly, we have a cruise ship that has some current mechanical problems that apparently resulted in disembarkation two days late.  I'm kind of surprised at the number of "don't worry about it, stuff happens responses".  Yes, unanticipated stuff happens, but this has already happened and it seems reasonable to wonder about the status of the ship soonest so plans can be rearranged.  

 

I hope the OP gets some positive answers before they have to jump on a plane.    

Thank you! Much appreciated.

Latest is Discoverys now leaving Dubai at 3 PM Friday. However the leaving date was originally Tuesday so who knows, it's been changed so many times. It will not call at Mumbai or Mangalore but straight to Goa on low power and no aircon.

Remember problems started a week ago and the sho has suffered long delays over he year due to mechanical problems. His isn't a one off or a surprise to the crew.

One might think it's bund to be fixed by May but I wonder he many people oozed in April, saw what happened last May and thought, "It's bound to be fixed by end of November.

Daftly I want to. Hea omethsng reasuring from Tui but so far, nothing.

Turns out all Tui ships are really old so czbanginvg to another ship ought help. X

[FlyerTalker]

2 hours ago, John Bull said:

The big advantage with Marella cruises (and many of P&O and Fred Olsen) is that they're fly-cruise packages. Those cruise lines charter aircraft to fly passengers out & home. So the aircraft can be re-scheduled by the cruise line to meet circumstances like Discovery's current predicament.

 

Incorrect.

 

Those aircraft aren't just sitting around, waiting for their next flight in a week or so.  They are actively working a schedule.  And a charter makes arrangements for specific dates, times and airports.

 

So, if there are "circumstances", it will be some effort to get aircraft to a particular location at a time that was NOT originally scheduled.

 

Unless you know of an operation that just keeps aircraft sitting on the ground, waiting for stuff to happen.  (in other words, aircraft don't make money sitting...they make money flying).

[John Bull]

2 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

Incorrect.

 

Those aircraft aren't just sitting around, waiting for their next flight in a week or so.  They are actively working a schedule.  And a charter makes arrangements for specific dates, times and airports.

 

So, if there are "circumstances", it will be some effort to get aircraft to a particular location at a time that was NOT originally scheduled.

 

Unless you know of an operation that just keeps aircraft sitting on the ground, waiting for stuff to happen.  (in other words, aircraft don't make money sitting...they make money flying).

 

 

Hi, FT.

 

True 

It happens.

 

(Suzy -don't read any further )

 

At least one cruise that I know of. A Fred Olsen captain refused to risk his ship entering the narrow Langton Dock in Liverpool in adverse conditions and the only alternative was Northern Ireland. Some 600 returning passengers had to be flown from there to Liverpool, and the same number of new passengers the opposite way. Fred Olsen then stopped cruising out of Liverpool until the new Princes Pierhead & terminal were built.

And occasionally other well-reported instances involving returning vacationers other than as scheduled - for instance because of terrorism alerts, flooding, forest fires, insufficient alternative accommodation when a travel agent has gone bust owing hotels money or a T/A has pulled its clients from hotels due to serious food-poisoning or serious carbon monoxide concerns and such.

And aircraft do go technical big-time, meaning another aircraft has to be found at much much shorter notice. More often than not, one is found.

And once, because a London-bound aircraft out of Madrid went technical our London-bound flight out of Malaga  was switched to a bigger aircraft (where did they find that one?) and we flew via Madrid to pick up those passengers.

 

So please don't tell me it doesn't happen cos I know it does.

 

JB 

Edited December 6, 2018 by John Bull

[davecttr]

Maybe the fact that Marella and TUI airways have the same parent company will help with the flights.

 

as far as the repair is concerned someone is going to be in serious doodah for measuring the part wrongly. Or maybe it was an adaptation  as I suppose these transformer things may be custom made? 

 

As far as fixing it is concerned they will be desperate to fix it as once it goes mainstream news wise their whole far east venture is in peril

 

nice to know the 'many' breakdowns was 2 or 3

[chengkp75]

I'd be real interested in knowing the actual reason for the delay.  I can't think of anything that would cause a ship to have reduced propulsion power and "no" AC, certainly not a "transformer".  The ship's generators generate power at 10,000 volts, and both the propulsion and AC chillers are 10,000 volt motors, so there is no transformer involved.  The ship has 5 diesel generators, and one is normally sufficient to power the hotel load, including the AC.  The remaining generators are only needed for propulsion.  But, they are interchangeable, so even losing one generator would only cause the ship to not make full speed (probably 75-80% of full speed), but still have AC.  There will also be two or more AC chillers, so failure of one does not take out all AC.  This is a bit baffling, and I'm wondering about the accuracy of reporting of the failure.

[KmomChicago]

Back to the original poster, the reason your mum likes cruising and doesn't like land vacations is pretty simple. Your hotel travels with you, and it also conveys you to your next destination.  Land tours, whether escorted or independent, covering a lot of ground, require you to wake up every morning with the stress of packing and hurrying out to another busy day, either following a strict group schedule or figuring out how to fit in everything you want to see on your own, before moving on to a new accommodation each night, unpacking, etc.  You may have to deal with language barriers, confusing signs and systems, inconsistent quality of food and hotels, and many other quirks that are mostly avoided on a cruise, where, if you decide you need an unscheduled day of rest, you are free to relax in comfort.

 

Land tours are not perfect either.  An attraction can close, your vehicle can break down.   In fact, there is almost always something that does not go precisely to the original plan.

[Go-Bucks!]

I've never heard of Marella cruiseline...is it a discount line?  Maybe you should take a well known, reliable line like Princess, HAL, Celebrity, Royal Caribbean,  or any of the premium or luxury lines. No guarantee of no problems,  but at least they're used and known by many people. 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Go-Bucks! said:

I've never heard of Marella cruiseline...is it a discount line?  Maybe you should take a well known, reliable line like Princess, HAL, Celebrity, Royal Caribbean,  or any of the premium or luxury lines. No guarantee of no problems,  but at least they're used and known by many people. 

Marella used to be Thompson cruises, a well known UK cruise line.

[davecttr]

Marella used to be known as Thomson and briefly TUI, serving the UK and Irish market for over 20 years. they currently have 5 ships and a 6th joining the fleet next May. The Marella rebranding helps differentiate them from TUI cruises which is for the German market. Unusual name Marella which means shining sea in Gaelic

[ldubs]

11 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I'd be real interested in knowing the actual reason for the delay.  I can't think of anything that would cause a ship to have reduced propulsion power and "no" AC, certainly not a "transformer".  The ship's generators generate power at 10,000 volts, and both the propulsion and AC chillers are 10,000 volt motors, so there is no transformer involved.  The ship has 5 diesel generators, and one is normally sufficient to power the hotel load, including the AC.  The remaining generators are only needed for propulsion.  But, they are interchangeable, so even losing one generator would only cause the ship to not make full speed (probably 75-80% of full speed), but still have AC.  There will also be two or more AC chillers, so failure of one does not take out all AC.  This is a bit baffling, and I'm wondering about the accuracy of reporting of the failure.

 

ChengKP,   I am not questioning  what you are saying   Do you recall the Carnival cruise line that broke down and was drifting for a few days.  I think it was in the Pacific off the coast of Mexico.  I recall there was no plumbing and plastic bags had to be used. Seems lights may have been out, but I can't recall.  Kitchens were down too I believe.  Passengers were being fed SPAM sandwiches according to news reports, though those can often be misleading.  

 

Anyway, I don't think this instance was of the same magnitude, but it appears massive outages can happen in spite of all of the redundancy and safeguards.   

[Capt_BJ]

I believe the question is about the alleged cause ... a 'transformer' ... I too raised eyebrows at this but write it off to an unknowing person incorrectly interpreting or reporting a third hand report of dubious quality 

 

and when i read this I too immediately thought of the (a) Carn' incident where the cause was a design flaw resulting in a single failure point & as I recall it was in a bus transfer system ... sort of the BIG switchboard that allows all those redundant generators to send power where needed. Hence I TOO would like to know what the 'real' cause is .... there may be lessons to be learned for the future.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

ChengKP,   I am not questioning  what you are saying   Do you recall the Carnival cruise line that broke down and was drifting for a few days.  I think it was in the Pacific off the coast of Mexico.  I recall there was no plumbing and plastic bags had to be used. Seems lights may have been out, but I can't recall.  Kitchens were down too I believe.  Passengers were being fed SPAM sandwiches according to news reports, though those can often be misleading.  

 

Anyway, I don't think this instance was of the same magnitude, but it appears massive outages can happen in spite of all of the redundancy and safeguards.   

Yes, that was the Splendor, which suffered the same incident as the Triumph, where a fire in one engine room burned the cabling from the other engine room, so that the perfectly fine generators in the forward engine roomcould not be used, because their cabling was burned up in the after engine room.  This was indeed a design flaw in the redundancy of the systems.  This has resulted, after two nearly identical incidents, to have the ships all redesigned so the cabling from the forward engine room runs outside the after engine room.  No fire, or similar occurrence has been reported in this instance, and anyway, this would be a total power outage.

 

But my interest is that all of the generators feed into one main switchboard (the "grid" on land), and all users (propulsion, AC, hotel load, and technical load) take power from this switchboard.  So, to lose multiple large users of power at the same time would require either a complete power failure (which is not reported), or multiple failures of various systems, which would be unusual to say the least.  Some ships use a "split bus" or two switchboards, where the generators in one engine room feed one switchboard, and the generators in the other engine room feed another switchboard, but these two switchboards join at at least one point, so that any generator can feed any user.  Similarly, if there is a redundant bus setup, some of the propulsion load will come from each of the switchboards, some of the AC will come from each of the switchboards, and the low power (440v, 220v, 110v) users are all fed from both switchboards.  This allows for a failure of one switchboard and still have the ability to power the entire hotel load, partial AC and partial propulsion.  Now, if this is the case, that there is actually some AC capacity, but not enough for what the ship needs to maintain a proper temperature in the Persian Gulf, and some propulsion capacity, then it is completely possible that they have lost the "tie" circuit breaker that joins the two switchboards together, and they are proceeding on one switchboard.  But a circumstance where "some" propulsion, and "all" AC are lost just doesn't ring true to me.

 

All of the low power systems, 440v and lower, are where the "transformers" are used, to lower the voltage, and these, are typically segregated as separate "feeds" from the main switchboard for each fire zone, to allow for isolation of a zone that is on fire from interrupting power to the other fire zones.  So, again, this allows redundancy of power.  Also, those ships with the "split" bus, each of these low power feeds in each fire zone is powered from each of the switchboards, using a transfer switch, like a generator at your house.  If the 440v feed is powered from the forward bus, and that bus fails, the transfer switch will open its breaker to the forward bus and close it to the after bus, keeping power going.

[Capt_BJ]

well .. that certainly clears things up .....

[davecttr]

It could be that 'Chinese whispers' has resulted in the facts being distorted as they pass from person to person.

 

Apparently Discovery formerly Splendour of the Seas will be departing Dubai for India tomorrow but missing Mangalore and Mumbai ports because of a reduced speed so there is some power.

 

Marella will want this fixed as the ship is spending the winter season cruising from Malaya and Thailand, hopefully!

[Suzycruisezy]

Transformer/generator was from a passenger's post on the fb page. That's the only explanation Ive seen until someone posted the letter sent to the cabins today, still vague (see attached). Please note, the compensation offered varies depending how long passengers have been on board. The person who posted this has already been on board for over a week and is sailing to India. As the ship broke down on the 28th of Nov, he's missed all the Emirate ports and been on Dubai for over a week. The ship is sailing under low power to Goa now, missing Mumbai and Mangalore. Repairs will be carried out in Goa hopefully. 

Good news; the Aircon should be fixed soon. That's been out since a week last Wednesday.

Some very annoyed Scottish passengers weren't informed until Thursday morning, as they were waiting to fly out. They were offered a full refund if they don't want to go but they'd already had all their jabs and travelled to Doncaster.  Tui have known for over a week. They haven't informed their shops and left it to the last minute to inform those joining the ship. 

JB - I did keep reading... 😱 I'm an islander. I'm used to ferries more than cruise ships and well aware that when they start breaking down, they have to keep going until they can get into dock for the annual mot. The Caledonian Isles crashed into Ardrossan a few times, made an impressive hole once!

Havent heard anything from Tui yet. Haven't told my Mum about the ongoing problem yet either. Be interesting to see what happens when they get to Goa. I do hope it's resolved there and there's a bit of cruise left for the passengers and crew.

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, that was the Splendor, which suffered the same incident as the Triumph, where a fire in one engine room burned the cabling from the other engine room, so that the perfectly fine generators in the forward engine roomcould not be used, because their cabling was burned up in the after engine room.  This was indeed a design flaw in the redundancy of the systems.  This has resulted, after two nearly identical incidents, to have the ships all redesigned so the cabling from the forward engine room runs outside the after engine room.  No fire, or similar occurrence has been reported in this instance, and anyway, this would be a total power outage.

 

I won't quote your entire post in the interest of space, but wanted to say I enjoy learning more about the ship systems.  Thanks for sharing.   

[Heidi13]

On 12/5/2018 at 7:04 PM, John Bull said:

 

 Hi-de-hi Heidi,

 

The big advantage with Marella cruises (and many of P&O and Fred Olsen) is that they're fly-cruise packages. Those cruise lines charter aircraft to fly passengers out & home. So the aircraft can be re-scheduled by the cruise line to meet circumstances like Discovery's current predicament.

 

JB 

JB - mentioned the flights, as at times the problem lies with the aircraft, even on charter flights.

 

Couple years ago my dad was joining a Fred Olson cruise on a charter flight. After boarding at Gatwick they sat for 3 hrs before take-off and lost additional time when stopped for bunkers. It arrived about 12 hours late, fortunately they had an overnight before the cruise.

[Go-Bucks!]

17 hours ago, Suzycruisezy said:

😱

 

 

Pretty poor compensation!

 

I was on the Grand Princess 3 yrs ago...a 15 day cruise to Hawaii, r/t San Francisco.  Just as we approached Hilo, at 0530, we were awakened by hearing an announcement overhead saying "All crew to deck 4, port engine room, for a fire", the ship wasn't moving and we had no electricity.  The captain came on and explained what was happening and that they were trying to put out the fire.  Turned out that our electric was out for 12 hrs, we couldn't get into Hilo and we limped at half speed to Honolulu where they tried for 2 days to fix the engines.  We missed 3 ports, but got to spend 2 days in Honolulu.  Were able to go back to SF but slowly.  Had wonderful weather and a great cruise (otherwise).

 

Princess offered 2 compensation plans:

1- They would fly you home from Honolulu at no cost; give 100% refund for the cruise; and a 25% of your fare credit toward another cruise.

OR

2- Give a 100% refund for the cruise; give a 50% of your fare credit toward another cruise; and $200 OBC during this cruise for anyone who wished to stay on the ship and go back to SF.

We took the second option and had a great time.  We were in a suite and got enough compensation for 2 more cruises in suites! 

[davecttr]

Marella discovery is now west of Mumbai proceeding to Cochin at 17 knots. A report from onboard says that the problem was caused by an explosion at 2.30? am which destroyed a 'switch panel', leaving them only able to use the power from 2 of the 5 engines. apparently they now have the power from 4 engines and hope to complete the repair in Cochin.

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, davecttr said:

Marella discovery is now west of Mumbai proceeding to Cochin at 17 knots. A report from onboard says that the problem was caused by an explosion at 2.30? am which destroyed a 'switch panel', leaving them only able to use the power from 2 of the 5 engines. apparently they now have the power from 4 engines and hope to complete the repair in Cochin.

Okay, that sounds like a failure of the "tie" circuit breaker that connects the two main switchboards (one switchboard takes the power of 3 generators, and the other takes the power of the other two generators).   Breaker failure, especially one in the 35Mw size range, and at 10,000 volts will sound and act like an explosion (I've known much smaller breakers to blow themselves off the switchboard when failing), kind of like the sound of a pole transformer blowing on land.  Sounds like they may have had a breaker available to use that was rated less than the original, hence not being able to use all generators.

[davecttr]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Okay, that sounds like a failure of the "tie" circuit breaker that connects the two main switchboards (one switchboard takes the power of 3 generators, and the other takes the power of the other two generators).   Breaker failure, especially one in the 35Mw size range, and at 10,000 volts will sound and act like an explosion (I've known much smaller breakers to blow themselves off the switchboard when failing), kind of like the sound of a pole transformer blowing on land.  Sounds like they may have had a breaker available to use that was rated less than the original, hence not being able to use all generators.

Ah thanks for reminding me, a circuit breaker was mentioned in another report from the ship. What could be the causes of a circuit breaker failing?

 

almost all passengers never noticed it as it was the middle of the night, apparently everything stopped for an hour or so and then the ship started moving again

 

edit - what does a ship circuit breaker look like and how does it work?

Edited December 10, 2018 by davecttr

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, davecttr said:

Ah thanks for reminding me, a circuit breaker was mentioned in another report from the ship. What could be the causes of a circuit breaker failing?

 

almost all passengers never noticed it as it was the middle of the night, apparently everything stopped for an hour or so and then the ship started moving again

 

edit - what does a ship circuit breaker look like and how does it work?

For the most part, they work just like a circuit breaker in your house.  It senses the current flowing across the breaker (from line (supply) to load (user)), and opens when the current exceeds the design amount.  Unlike home breakers, these will have both short term trip levels (when the current is at the design trip level or above), and long term trip levels (when the current is slightly below the short term trip level for a long time).  Large marine breakers like these would also probably have undervoltage trip circuits, and likely phase imbalance trips (the current between any of the three phases (power legs) is different by more than a set amount).  Generally, these large breakers are serviced by the manufacturer's technicians at each dry docking, but simply age can affect the trip circuits, or there is dirt on the connections, or vibration has loosened the connections.  A circuit breaker opening will always spark (even home ones, a little), when it is actively carrying load, and these large breakers have "arc chutes" to disperse the sparking, but if this breaker was carrying nearly its full rated load, in the 30+ Mw range, when it opened (probably a fault in its circuitry), there would have been an incredible arc flash, and it could have sheared the bolts holding the breaker into the bus bars and literally blown the breaker out of the switchboard.

 

A failure of this type would likely have blacked the ship out for a time, until they could reset all the working systems, and isolate the failed breaker.

 

Here's a photo of marine circuit breakers:

And here's what a "main switchboard" looks like for a small application (each door houses a circuit breaker)

 

Here's a bit of a blog on how marine air circuit breakers work:

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.electrical4u.com%2Fimages03%2Fair-circuit-breaker.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmarineexam.blogspot.com%2F2016%2F08%2Fair-circuit-breaker.html&docid=fqr7wZVYI_0yzM&tbnid=9VWOW2y0mRSPrM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiR7v2l05XfAhVQvlkKHZcVBgkQMwi_ASgEMAQ..i&w=498&h=416&bih=945&biw=1920&q=marine air circuit breaker&ved=0ahUKEwiR7v2l05XfAhVQvlkKHZcVBgkQMwi_ASgEMAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

 

It may well have been something else that caused the breaker to fail, for instance if one of the generators failed to earth, that could draw too much current, and this could then have caused an older "tie" breaker to fail when opening.

[Capt_BJ]

had to come back and check this somewhat humours thread

 

most folks need to realise that the circuit breaker you see in the electrical panel in your house has little resemblance to the HUGE ones we're talking about.

 

While not saying it is an accurate representation, think of the one that needed to be reset to restore power in Jurassic Park....