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Briji04

Epic Interrupted

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11 hours ago, imagiNet said:

 

I was in Jan Juan at the end of January. Here is a picture of the port clearly showing the EDGE and the OASIS docked at the same pier that the Epic hit. Those are much larger ships. 

IMG_6575.JPG

There's no Oasis-class ship in that picture. The Edge comes into San Juan every other week on Tuesday and that looks like a Vista-class Carnival ship in the middle and a Holland America in the foreground. Carnival docked both ship at pier 4 (to which they hold a lease to) where the Fascination embarks and debarks and Edge was at the western side of pier 3.

 

That was actually the same berth the Edge occupied when Epic had the accident with the east side of the pier. I know because I went that night to see the Epic. The Oasis-class ship dock in San Juan on Thursdays, alternating between Harmony and Allure OTS.

 

20190212_221352-L.jpg

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12 hours ago, Capt_BJ said:

if you are a ship freak and want some insite to this incident

 

I'd offer this report of the Cel' ship that slammed the pier in Alaska in a similar way

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAB1736.pdf

 

the report offers many pilot did this and capt did that

 

but the report from NTSB ends .....

 

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the Celebrity Infinity’s allision with the dock was the master’s failure to plan, monitor, and execute a safe docking evolution.

 

It is the CAPTAIN/MASTER responsibility ........ as I said ... this comes with the job .. 

Yep, and in this case, since it was found that the Captain did not follow the company's ISM procedures for bridge resource management and planning to safely complete the docking evolution, he was disciplined and likely fired.  Unless the same thing is found in this instance, then he wouldn't be disciplined as other posters have said.

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Hi! I’m. Hoping someone can post the ship speed graph from yesterday around 12:05pm EST. This is the time that we were stopped dead yesterday. I can’t recall being stopped dead before without being at anchor. My GPS showed 0.0, and even if trying to stop the ship, I’d expect some drift, so I’d like to see how fast the ship stopped and whether this would be within normal parameters. 

 

I think we we were hung up sandbar, rather than had been “testing” something 32kms out from port, as the captain said later. 

 

I’ll be happy to be wrong about this, but I’m curious either way. 

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1 hour ago, JoeCanadian said:

Hi! I’m. Hoping someone can post the ship speed graph from yesterday around 12:05pm EST. This is the time that we were stopped dead yesterday. I can’t recall being stopped dead before without being at anchor. My GPS showed 0.0, and even if trying to stop the ship, I’d expect some drift, so I’d like to see how fast the ship stopped and whether this would be within normal parameters. 

 

I think we we were hung up sandbar, rather than had been “testing” something 32kms out from port, as the captain said later. 

 

I’ll be happy to be wrong about this, but I’m curious either way. 

7ADC4F6A-AF18-4620-8B77-1AC968758416.MOV

 

 

So the ship stopped dead in water?

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1 hour ago, JoeCanadian said:

Hi! I’m. Hoping someone can post the ship speed graph from yesterday around 12:05pm EST. This is the time that we were stopped dead yesterday. I can’t recall being stopped dead before without being at anchor. My GPS showed 0.0, and even if trying to stop the ship, I’d expect some drift, so I’d like to see how fast the ship stopped and whether this would be within normal parameters. 

 

I think we we were hung up sandbar, rather than had been “testing” something 32kms out from port, as the captain said later. 

 

I’ll be happy to be wrong about this, but I’m curious either way. 

 

Thats sand the thrusters are kicking up

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It's still plotted on Marinetraffic, looked like ship planned slowing down and then did some sort of maneuvering, like an inverted J turn ... maybe testing the bow & stern thrusters. As tugs were assisting with the final docking at the pier. That spot is like 10 nm off the barrier island/Coca Beach ... mariners familiar with the area would know better if they can access charts & tidal info, could it that shallow ? I think not for them to run into sandbars ... Bermuda with the coral reef is different.

 

Meanwhile, anyone seeing work crew and or divers by the Epic this morning doing work or inspections ?  Safe journey & travel to those heading home and embarking later.

Screenshot_20190217-093914.png

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I really don’t understand anyone being upset by this cruise..it happens...and why bail on the next one? When you live 1.5 hours away...go enjoy yourself.  

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14 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

I really don’t understand anyone being upset by this cruise..it happens...and why bail on the next one? When you live 1.5 hours away...go enjoy yourself.  

 

I don't think they are upset. If they only live 1.5 hours away there are no flights and or hotels to worry about. If the shortened excursion is to ports not to their liking and they get 100% credit for a future cruise: it makes perfect sense to me to cancel and book at a later date and take the itinerary that you actually want.

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19 minutes ago, Mattnvick said:

 

I don't think they are upset. If they only live 1.5 hours away there are no flights and or hotels to worry about. If the shortened excursion is to ports not to their liking and they get 100% credit for a future cruise: it makes perfect sense to me to cancel and book at a later date and take the itinerary that you actually want.

IF you get the credit, I somewhat understand...I know how much I look forward to getting on the ship...

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58 minutes ago, mking8288 said:

It's still plotted on Marinetraffic, looked like ship planned slowing down and then did some sort of maneuvering, like an inverted J turn ... maybe testing the bow & stern thrusters. As tugs were assisting with the final docking at the pier. That spot is like 10 nm off the barrier island/Coca Beach ... mariners familiar with the area would know better if they can access charts & tidal info, could it that shallow ? I think not for them to run into sandbars ... Bermuda with the coral reef is different.

 

Meanwhile, anyone seeing work crew and or divers by the Epic this morning doing work or inspections ?  Safe journey & travel to those heading home and embarking later.

Screenshot_20190217-093914.png

 

If the Epic had not received the final clearance to enter port, they would have to slow down or stop until this was cleared.  If a ship has mechanical problems the Class will have to issue a separate certificate pertaining to the situation on board.  This certificate will have to be submitted to the Captain of the Port (USCG).  Once reviewed he/she will give the final clearance for the ship to enter port.  Did not look like the Epic had to wait to long to before starting the transit inbound.

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1 hour ago, mking8288 said:

It's still plotted on Marinetraffic, looked like ship planned slowing down and then did some sort of maneuvering, like an inverted J turn ... maybe testing the bow & stern thrusters. As tugs were assisting with the final docking at the pier. That spot is like 10 nm off the barrier island/Coca Beach ... mariners familiar with the area would know better if they can access charts & tidal info, could it that shallow ? I think not for them to run into sandbars ... Bermuda with the coral reef is different.

 

Meanwhile, anyone seeing work crew and or divers by the Epic this morning doing work or inspections ?  Safe journey & travel to those heading home and embarking later.

Screenshot_20190217-093914.png

That's well offshore, and there are no sandbars around there, that's along the main north-south track line for all ships.  They were perhaps doing an astern test to ensure proper operation of the one screw.

 

3 hours ago, JoeCanadian said:

Hi! I’m. Hoping someone can post the ship speed graph from yesterday around 12:05pm EST. This is the time that we were stopped dead yesterday. I can’t recall being stopped dead before without being at anchor. My GPS showed 0.0, and even if trying to stop the ship, I’d expect some drift, so I’d like to see how fast the ship stopped and whether this would be within normal parameters. 

 

I think we we were hung up sandbar, rather than had been “testing” something 32kms out from port, as the captain said later. 

 

I’ll be happy to be wrong about this, but I’m curious either way. 

7ADC4F6A-AF18-4620-8B77-1AC968758416.MOV

Can't see the video, but marinetraffic shows the ship stopping from 14 knots to zero, and back up to 12+ knots from about 11:48 to 12:32 local.  The "speed profile" looks more like a slowing to either kill time or test astern function, and then just as rapidly getting back up to speed.  If it had hit bottom, first off, you wouldn't be asking us about it, you would have felt it along with everyone else onboard, and it would not have regained speed so quickly.  Doing the astern test is supposed to be completed before entering US waters, but is far more commonly done at the sea buoy while waiting on the pilot, but this may have been required by USCG for entry into US waters.

 

I'm interested to find out what was the problem, as Epic has fixed pitch propellers, so a loss of hydraulics can't happen, and typically the propulsion motors have dual windings, so if something happens to the electrical control system or the power system, it will affect only half the power to the propeller, but you can still use it in limited power situations like harbor maneuvering.  Might be a bearing problem, but that normally requires locking the shaft, and you wouldn't get 14 knots out of one shaft with the other not free-wheeling.  

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5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yep, and in this case, since it was found that the Captain did not follow the company's ISM procedures for bridge resource management and planning to safely complete the docking evolution, he was disciplined and likely fired.  Unless the same thing is found in this instance, then he wouldn't be disciplined as other posters have said.

 

This is a little bit of a grey area.  As an example the Captain may have followed all procedures in the SMS, checks completed etc.  The Captain may still have the support from the leadership in the office.  The challenge is when damages or losses are starting to go above 1 million dollars and the company wish to submit a claim to the P&I Club, the P&I Club may then ask for discipline.  The P&I Club may tell the company that they will accept claim, but the shipping company must terminate the Captain due to their loss in confidence in the Captain.  Over the years Captains have lost their job due to pressure from the P&I Club or their threat to withdraw the protection and indemnity insurance a company have for all of their ships. 

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24 minutes ago, happysailor1001 said:

 

This is a little bit of a grey area.  As an example the Captain may have followed all procedures in the SMS, checks completed etc.  The Captain may still have the support from the leadership in the office.  The challenge is when damages or losses are starting to go above 1 million dollars and the company wish to submit a claim to the P&I Club, the P&I Club may then ask for discipline.  The P&I Club may tell the company that they will accept claim, but the shipping company must terminate the Captain due to their loss in confidence in the Captain.  Over the years Captains have lost their job due to pressure from the P&I Club or their threat to withdraw the protection and indemnity insurance a company have for all of their ships. 

Interesting, since the P&I clubs are mutual insurance, meaning they only insure the members' ships.  I have not heard of this, but it could be a tactic short of asking the company to leave the Club due to high risk.  P&I premiums are based on the historical cost of claims by the member shipping companies.

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31 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Interesting, since the P&I clubs are mutual insurance, meaning they only insure the members' ships.  I have not heard of this, but it could be a tactic short of asking the company to leave the Club due to high risk.  P&I premiums are based on the historical cost of claims by the member shipping companies.

 

Sorry this is a fact.  You may not have experienced this, but this is a fact.  I am not working for NCL, but the Captain on the Norwegian Dream who was involved in the incident in the English Channel many years ago was let go after pressure from the P&I Club.  The actual premium a company is paying to a P&Club is 2-fold.  One is the overall cost for the P&I Club based on their members claims.  If they have a lot of claims, everyone's premium will go up.  The other factor which determines the premium or discount for the individual company is also based how well the company is doing.  For a Cruise Line this covers a wide area.  One example is how many lawsuits a Cruise Line have against them from passengers who may have claimed the company to be negligent, like a slip and fall incident on board. You were correct about the shaft on the Epic.  Crew on the Epic has mentioned on social media that one of the shafts was locked on the way back to Florida.    

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Will Epic's damages to the pier structures affect docking of other ships at SJ in next few weeks?   On 2/28 we on Allure scheduled to be docked at SJ along with Carnival Magic & NCL Gem.  

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We stopped at Freeport for 3 hours at midnight on Friday 

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16 minutes ago, tlm48 said:

We stopped at Freeport for 3 hours at midnight on Friday 

 

You have my sincere condolences. 

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22 minutes ago, tlm48 said:

We stopped at Freeport for 3 hours at midnight on Friday 

 

Been following this thread for days as we head out B2B on MSC Seaside 3/2/19 and always follow CC as we approach a cruise.

 

We can't even imagine how some have had to deal with this.  Hopefully you still had some fun, enjoy your free cruise and get back home safely.

 

Take care.

Edited by Formula280SS

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10 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

When is the Epic due to be refurbished?

 

 

I think her engines are being refurbished right now.

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1 minute ago, gmbhardy said:

 

I think her engines are being refurbished right now.

LOL

         I know she was done in 2015, couldn't find her next date

 

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1 hour ago, tlm48 said:

We stopped at Freeport for 3 hours at midnight on Friday 

 

Err, i was wide awake partying away at midnight and were not even close to Freeport at that time. I didn’t go to sleep until 2am and we were still moving...

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13 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

LOL

         I know she was done in 2015, couldn't find her next date

 

Usually every five years which would put her for drydock again in 2020.

Edited by ChrisCJSU

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2 hours ago, happysailor1001 said:

 

Sorry this is a fact.  You may not have experienced this, but this is a fact.  I am not working for NCL, but the Captain on the Norwegian Dream who was involved in the incident in the English Channel many years ago was let go after pressure from the P&I Club.  The actual premium a company is paying to a P&Club is 2-fold.  One is the overall cost for the P&I Club based on their members claims.  If they have a lot of claims, everyone's premium will go up.  The other factor which determines the premium or discount for the individual company is also based how well the company is doing.  For a Cruise Line this covers a wide area.  One example is how many lawsuits a Cruise Line have against them from passengers who may have claimed the company to be negligent, like a slip and fall incident on board. You were correct about the shaft on the Epic.  Crew on the Epic has mentioned on social media that one of the shafts was locked on the way back to Florida.    

One thing to note is that while the ISM had come into force in July 1998 for passenger ships, the Dream collision happened just over a year later, in August 1999, and at that time I would suspect that most cruise lines had not completed their first annual ISM audit, and that the code was still evolving (even as it does today), but I remember the original company documents to be rather rudimentary at best.  Today's documents are complex and cover virtually all aspects of ship management.  I think a P&I Club would have much less ability to force discipline on a Captain that met the company's ISM code today, given how entwined the class and ISM surveys are with P&I.

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