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Briji04

Epic Interrupted

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5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 ... Epic was a "throw-back" to shafted propellers, built when the issues with azipod bearings were at their height ... fixed pitch propellers, it takes a couple of seconds longer to reverse the propellers than it does with variable pitch propellers to reverse the pitch ... the effect of bow and stern thrusters is reduced because of the water flow past the thruster tunnel mouth ... Having a second engine down drops power to propulsion, but since the power to speed relationship is exponential, a 50% reduction in power available results in only about a 15-20% reduction in speed ... 

 

Chief, Thank you & excellent for us non-mariners to understood (abstracted your post to keep it easier) how things worked & difference with Epic's engineering designs.  Super helpful.  

 

I went back to look at AIS data for Epic's approach inside the harbor, it was coming into the pier under 2.6 knots & throttling slower to 1.8, 1.3, 1.1 and 0.1 to 0.2 knots, etc. (not coming in "fast" at all - sailing toward Old San Juan under 12 knots.) Two tugs, as others reported, was pushing her on starboard side.  According to NCL's corporate tweet, the incident happened due to (strong/unexpected or whatever) river/harbor current during the docking process.  That would help to understand the ship going the way it did, like sliding & slipping on ice (in the water, in this case) while being maneuvered into its final position, with its own power systems in combo with the tugs.  Things happened and surely, nobody wished for it on top of it all. 

 

Again, much obliged and appreciated for the details.  

Edited by mking8288

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53 minutes ago, mking8288 said:

 

Chief, Thank you & excellent for us non-mariners to understood (abstracted your post to keep it easier) how things worked & difference with Epic's engineering designs.  Super helpful.  

 

I went back to look at AIS data for Epic's approach inside the harbor, it was coming into the pier under 2.6 knots & throttling slower to 1.8, 1.3, 1.1 and 0.1 to 0.2 knots, etc. (not coming in "fast" at all - sailing toward Old San Juan under 12 knots.) Two tugs, as others reported, was pushing her on starboard side.  According to NCL's corporate tweet, the incident happened due to (strong/unexpected or whatever) river/harbor current during the docking process.  That would help to understand the ship going the way it did, like sliding & slipping on ice (in the water, in this case) while being maneuvered into its final position, with its own power systems in combo with the tugs.  Things happened and surely, nobody wished for it on top of it all. 

 

Again, much obliged and appreciated for the details.  

Yeah, sounds a lot like the Manhattan terminal at certain states of tide and current.  Believe Carnival smacked the parking garage there a few months back?  Turning into a cross current like that really becomes a problem.  Not sure if Epic has "Becker" (high lift) rudders, but I suspect so.  Normal rudders lose effectiveness under a couple of knots, but Becker rudders have a "trim tab" on the trailing edge, like an airplane's ailerons, that can create sideways "lift" when the ship is at slow speeds. 

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59 minutes ago, eme said:

Great Stirrup Cay is still on the schedule ... Too busy enjoying San Juan right now, lol

 

Most definitely enjoy your port day as best as you could, nice weather down there while many of us are recovering from winter weather ... thankfully, just a little bit of snow, sleet, ice & rain all mixed in, clearing up here in NYC.  Cabin fever already acting up and we're just "escorted" off the Escape about 3 weeks ago with our "washy washy" incident - LOL.  

 

GSC, as many of us know, is a tender port and always 50:50 as to success (my luck hasn't been all that great on the last 4 "attempts" with NCL, batting just 25%) and what if the Epic is repaired & sail onward - if it skipped the private island & head home, would that become a cruise-to-nowhere & possibly Jones Act ?  I don't have the answer, maybe the ship should touch-n-go at Nassau first ??  Or, this can be waived due to the mechancial issues.  

 

Regardless, to us, when it rain, go out & dance and then dry up.  Have a great one & we will all be following along.  Safe sailing.  

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1 hour ago, pehlibaar said:

We cruise on the Epic end of March, I'm sure it will be fixed by then, but I thought I read somewhere that the Epic has had issues before...should I be concerned?

Well, lots of folks here on CC use the term "propulsion issues" or "mechanical issues" to cover a blanket of problems that a ship can have.  It's like saying your car has "drivability issues" when it is running rough one month because of bad spark plugs, and then needs new brakes another month, but these two issues are completely unrelated other than they both happened to your car.  I suspect that one engine was down for normal overhaul or maintenance, and then they had a failure (and no one knows how serious it is, unless you're down there swinging wrenches with them) of a second engine that caused the itinerary to become unsustainable.  If they've brought in the engine manufacturer's service engineers, it is likely to speed up the overhaul, or to provide additional manpower to complete repairs to both engines.  However, even with two diesels down, there is nothing unsafe about the ship.

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53 minutes ago, mking8288 said:

 

Most definitely enjoy your port day as best as you could, nice weather down there while many of us are recovering from winter weather ... thankfully, just a little bit of snow, sleet, ice & rain all mixed in, clearing up here in NYC.  Cabin fever already acting up and we're just "escorted" off the Escape about 3 weeks ago with our "washy washy" incident - LOL.  

 

GSC, as many of us know, is a tender port and always 50:50 as to success (my luck hasn't been all that great on the last 4 "attempts" with NCL, batting just 25%) and what if the Epic is repaired & sail onward - if it skipped the private island & head home, would that become a cruise-to-nowhere & possibly Jones Act ?  I don't have the answer, maybe the ship should touch-n-go at Nassau first ??  Or, this can be waived due to the mechancial issues.  

 

Regardless, to us, when it rain, go out & dance and then dry up.  Have a great one & we will all be following along.  Safe sailing.  

Cruises without a foreign port call are given PVSA (not Jones Act) waivers if it is caused by mechanical problems.

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31 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yeah, sounds a lot like the Manhattan terminal at certain states of tide and current.  Believe Carnival smacked the parking garage there a few months back?  Turning into a cross current like that really becomes a problem.  Not sure if Epic has "Becker" (high lift) rudders, but I suspect so.  Normal rudders lose effectiveness under a couple of knots, but Becker rudders have a "trim tab" on the trailing edge, like an airplane's ailerons, that can create sideways "lift" when the ship is at slow speeds. 

 

She does have trim tabs on her rudder. This pic, via CC, gives a good overview of what we're talking about.

be5821377f3633bbfa8bce1af35e1ca3.jpg

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Thinking on it, this is a likely scenario.  The current is running at 90* to the pier, from the pier towards the Epic.  The tugs are pushing to counteract this current, and the thrusters are pushing towards the dock as well (why mking could not see a wake early on, the wake was on the other side).  When the bow of the ship entered the "shadow" of the pier and the ship on the other side (if it's not a solid pier), the current force on the bow was removed, and the tugs and thrusters would need to be reversed quickly to stop the momentum towards the pier.  This is exactly what happened to Carnival in NYC.

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"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."  🙂

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Someone on my roll call for next weeks sailing in now saying that the ship will stay in San Juan until Thursday to complete repairs, so I doubt GSC will be done on Friday, or at least not all day.

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We were not allowed off of the Jade when we had mechanical problems because they wanted everyone on the ship at all times. Throughout the day and into the night, they would call cabin #s to go down to board a bus to go to airport. You did not know when your cabin # would be called so you had to be ready for a couple of days just in case you heard your cabin # over the speaker. You then had less than 30 mins to get off.

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Just heard about this... came here to see if chengkp75 had provided insight.... thanks for your explanation... learn something everytime I see one of your posts....

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Cruises without a foreign port call are given PVSA (not Jones Act) waivers if it is caused by mechanical problems.

 

I've also read that the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico are not considered "US Ports" under this Act.

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1 hour ago, Mechman1971 said:

 

I've also read that the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico are not considered "US Ports" under this Act.

That's not quite correct.  There are waivers in place for passenger service between Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands (which are both considered US ports) and the mainland US, until such time as a US flag passenger service is established.  So, if American Cruises or Blount wanted to establish year round one way cruises from San Juan to the mainland US, then Carnival who used to run a seasonal one way itinerary, and all the repositioning cruises from every other cruise line would not be allowed to do so.

 

Similarly, there are waivers for Canadian vessels to transport passengers between Rochester, NY and Alexandria Bay, NY, and ports in southeaster Alaska, until such time as a US flag service is provided.

Edited by chengkp75

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kind of a sad lol - our friends were with us on Jade when our cruise was so rudely interrupted by mechanical problems, so they booked Epic in March as a make up cruise...

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2 minutes ago, enjoymylife1 said:

was just about to jump on the march 16th sailing, but not looking like i will pop my norwegian cherry!

 

IF I had a trip in mind, I certainly wouldn't let this stop me.  Ships have issues from time to time, ports get changed..they sell insurance for this sort of thing.  Go for it.  

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18 minutes ago, Itchy&Scratchy said:

kind of a sad lol - our friends were with us on Jade when our cruise was so rudely interrupted by mechanical problems, so they booked Epic in March as a make up cruise...

They should be fine.  My Inlaws cruised on the Jade to the Canal right after the issues it had, which were apparently more major than this..no problems, first night in port of a 10 day cruise, then they were off.  They had a ball.  

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Does anyone have any updates about whether they’ll be leaving PR tonight? We were supposed to be on this sailing but had to cancel the night before due to a medical emergency, so I’ve been following pretty closely. Really hope those on board are able to make the best of the less than ideal circumstances. This would’ve been my first cruise, so I am somewhat relieved that we weren’t on board! 

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5 hours ago, zenworks911 said:

I heard one more rumor that I wondered if someone could confirm and then I will quit. 

 

Someone said that the ship's captain is actually named Captain Morgan.  Is that true?

 

Hi...I was on the Dawn the week before Thanksgiving and the captain was Captain Morgan. 

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They just announced we will be underway at 7 PM. Not really sure where we are going yet. Fingers crossed that we get to stop at GSC. 

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Just now, Briji04 said:

They just announced we will be underway at 7 PM. Not really sure where we are going yet. Fingers crossed that we get to stop at GSC. 

Safe travels.   I will also cross my fingers that you stop at GSC.  

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8 minutes ago, Briji04 said:

They just announced we will be underway at 7 PM. Not really sure where we are going yet. Fingers crossed that we get to stop at GSC. 

 

I hope you get to stop at GSC and the rest of the cruise goes smoothly! Thinking of everyone on board. 

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Hope this all sorts itself out. Everyone seemed to keep a good level head.  I can only imagine disappointment 

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