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Jack E Dawson

QM2 Sheltered Cabins...what was Payne thinking?

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I'm not a naval architect but what was Stephen Payne thinking, or not thinking, when he designed the balcony opening on the Sheltered Balcony cabins? If he had either enlarged the balcony opening so that the bottom was 6" (16cm) lower or had left the opening the same size but placed the entire opening 6" lower, then most people would be able to see the ocean when sitting either on the balcony or in the cabin itself. Right now, there are three basic Britannia balcony cabins; Sheltered, Obstructed View and Unobstructed view. Of these three, the Sheltered is often the lowest or second lowest in price. However, if the Sheltered opening bottom was just a little lower, and considering it is already a bigger balcony in area, Cunard could easily get the same price, or even higher, as the unobstructed cabin. So instead of a good/better/best arrangement they would have a better/best/best arrangement. Wouldn't Cunard love that! I've had both a sheltered cabin and unobstructed view cabin and enjoyed both but I can tell you that if the sheltered cabin had the lower balcony opening, that would be my preference. 

Is this a design flaw, something that was simply overlooked or is there a real reason for the placement of the opening. At first I thought that the placement was a safety issue because decks 4, 5 & 6 are close to the water but then I noticed that there are many sheltered openings on various decks below deck 4. 

So come on Stephen...fess up.

 

Jack

 

 

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all to do with the relaxed SOLAS Regs for lifeboat location and TA liners

He got exemption for the QM2 for putting them up higher on deck 7

Many folk WANT balconies end of ---- he got as many on the ship as possible -- and the sheltered option was what he had to take for TA storms and weather on decks that were that lower down

that is more or less the story 

failing that the 3 decks would just be outside cabins -
but at least they have some very popular outside space
no doubt the handrail height was certificated for SOLAS safety 

QM2 was built as a TA Liner not a cruise ship to plod around the Med and sunny islands...BUT she can be used as both

The other hull openings you mention are all at the stern for docking and lines - these apertures are away from any high seas forward - they would also have drainage ports if water ingresses 

As for cabin prices the lowest Balcony prices (from the UK)  are usually now on the deck 8 with 3 grades of OBS views - then come the 3 grades of sheltered ones on decks 4.5 and 6 --- which are seen as upgrades from the OBS views on deck 8 

Edited by rog747

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18 hours ago, Jack E Dawson said:

I'm not a naval architect but what was Stephen Payne thinking, or not thinking, when he designed the balcony opening on the Sheltered Balcony cabins? If he had either enlarged the balcony opening so that the bottom was 6" (16cm) lower or had left the opening the same size but placed the entire opening 6" lower, then most people would be able to see the ocean when sitting either on the balcony or in the cabin itself. Right now, there are three basic Britannia balcony cabins; Sheltered, Obstructed View and Unobstructed view. Of these three, the Sheltered is often the lowest or second lowest in price. However, if the Sheltered opening bottom was just a little lower, and considering it is already a bigger balcony in area, Cunard could easily get the same price, or even higher, as the unobstructed cabin. So instead of a good/better/best arrangement they would have a better/best/best arrangement. Wouldn't Cunard love that! I've had both a sheltered cabin and unobstructed view cabin and enjoyed both but I can tell you that if the sheltered cabin had the lower balcony opening, that would be my preference. 

Is this a design flaw, something that was simply overlooked or is there a real reason for the placement of the opening. At first I thought that the placement was a safety issue because decks 4, 5 & 6 are close to the water but then I noticed that there are many sheltered openings on various decks below deck 4. 

So come on Stephen...fess up.

 

Jack

 

 

Jack if you are a You Tube user, check out some of the videos on the design and building of the QM2. They spend a good deal of time explaining why and how they designed and built the ship with sheltered balconies. Just enter Building Queen Mary 2 in the search box and you will have the information you seek 

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Or book a cruise/crossing when he is onboard and ask him the question !

I really enjoyed his lectures during our British Isles cruise in 2015.

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Bigmike911, I am a YouTube addict so I will follow your advice and do a little research there. Thanks

 

Hattie, I would love to be on board the QM2 with Stephen Payne. How would one find out when he plans on being part of the Insights Program other than just looking at very single QM2 voyage listing?

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Jack google stephen Payne lectures - there are videos there full length like this one 

 

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On 2/20/2019 at 7:53 AM, john watson said:

You could have higher Balcony Chairs supplied by Cunard as standard.

 

Regards John

 

Possibly, but the higher center of gravity might make them tend to tip over. Plus there's the risk of someone sitting on the higher chair right next to the opening, and leaning out and ... splash...

 

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39 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

Possibly, but the higher center of gravity might make them tend to tip over. Plus there's the risk of someone sitting on the higher chair right next to the opening, and leaning out and ... splash...

 

 

Indeed, I was thinking if they had higher seats they would need heavier, possibly wider increased sturdy bases to make them more stable. They would need to be fit for purpose. They could alternatively have fixings to anchor them down.  The "sitting on the higher chair right next to the opening" concept might explain why the lower edge of the current opening is as high as it is currently.

 

Regards John

Edited by john watson

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On 2/19/2019 at 5:57 PM, Jack E Dawson said:

I'm not a naval architect but what was Stephen Payne thinking, or not thinking, when he designed the balcony opening on the Sheltered Balcony cabins? If he had either enlarged the balcony opening so that the bottom was 6" (16cm) lower or had left the opening the same size but placed the entire opening 6" lower, then most people would be able to see the ocean when sitting either on the balcony or in the cabin itself. 

Is this a design flaw, something that was simply overlooked or is there a real reason for the placement of the opening. At first I thought that the placement was a safety issue because decks 4, 5 & 6 are close to the water but then I noticed that there are many sheltered openings on various decks below deck 4. 

So come on Stephen...fess up.

Jack

 

 

 

Jack, nor am I a naval architect although I have worked closely with naval archs and design engineers on numerous shipbuilding projects, in the role of Project Director and as the operational requirements guy.

 

Obviously I have no specific information on how the openings got situated in way of the sheltered balconies, but the type of design considerations that would have arisen might include such elements as:
- alignment and non-interference with ship’s structures and fitted systems (piping, electrical, HVAC, etc.)
- structural integrity (strength and rigidity) of the ship’s exterior plating as part of the ship-girder
- weight considerations
- minimum safe height with respect to persons falling out through the opening
- protection from waves and spray entering the opening, as well as potential for water entrainment and drainage within the balcony
- susceptibility to undesirable aerodynamics, such as wind swirling into the balconies and cabins
- aesthetics from the interior and the exterior
- sightlines from inside out, and from outside in

Some of these elements would be prescribed in Port State Regulations and in Classification Society Rules, while others would be subject to best practices, established conventions, and the individual choices of the owner as exercised through the design team and consulted stakeholders.

 

So ... conscious choice, or choice forced by design constraints, or prescribed standard? Or a simple oversight?
It's hard to say.
I wonder if Cheng75 might have any insights?

 

PJ

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When QM2 was being designed, Micky Arison insisted on more balconies.  I think he said one or two more decks.  Stephen Payne gave him three so the story goes.  He had to devise a way to increase the percentage of balcony cabins so the sheltered balcony was born.  As to how enclosed it is, and how high the steel rail is, I'm sure that was all taken into account regarding the conditions QM2 would be encountering, etc.  

 

Many ships have sheltered balcony cabins now.  All the new Carnival ships, the new Costa ships, AIDA, and soon P&O with IONA.  The sheltered balcony cabins on Carnival even have a large steel water tight door that closes over the glass door in rough seas.  

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We sailed on QM2 3x..once was a winter carib 13 day cruise out of NYC.  We chose the in hull balconys because they were midship, the seas out of the northeast can be rough and they provided shade while in the carib.

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