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Federal Judge considers sanctions affecting Carnival that could affect cruises

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On 4/12/2019 at 2:06 PM, CdrescherRBL152 said:

The ban will never happen and here is way. Just the port of Miami gets roughly $100,000,000 per year from Carnival. That is just Fock fee. Does not include such things additional security, long shormen, money from Hotels and airfare. Add it all up the ban round come close to  a billion dollar a year hit to local economies. Nope the ban will never come to be.

 

A minor anecdote to support this conclusion:

 

As I am sure many of you know, recently there was that crane collapse on Oasis of the Seas while getting some upgrades.  RC had to cancel three sailings as a result.

 

Some news-sites had articles about how the cancellations would impact local business:.  E.g.:

 

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2019/04/05/port-hotels-take-financial-hit-after-royal-caribbean-cancels-three-cruises/3373914002/

 

Maybe some of that was played up for drama, maybe it is accurate.  But that was one ship, three sailings.

 

Now imagine every single Carnival Corp cruise out of the US getting cancelled for months/years.  Local businesses would be horrified.

 

IMHO, Carnival should be hit with a huge fine (waaaaay bigger than the previous $40M), with observers and compliance officers all over the place for many years, all at Carnival's cost, and probably some heads should roll - hopefully the details of the findings will reveal where the true decay happened, rather than some symbolic changes at the top of leaders who may not have been aware of how the transgressions conspired.  If the C-levels and/or board did know, then they should indeed go.  But obviously there was malpractice at lower levels for this to occur so apparently regularly.

Edited by ProgRockCruiser

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21 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Paul, I just can't get over the fact that they apparently didn't do any compliance training, as this should have been a significant part of the probation, and with this training and corporate audits at surprise intervals, rather than "how to beat the audit" notes, they would have inculcated an environmental compliance culture from the top down.

I agree. Working in a hospital we have been “put on probation” so to say. The results were system wide. We had multiple days of compliance training for our citations and our faulty processes were completely overhauled. I rounded with the federal auditor when she came back for our follow up and that was the main thing she asked about. How did you change the system to fix the problem?? She was satisfied. 

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2 hours ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

...

Now imagine every single Carnival Corp cruise out of the US getting cancelled for months/years.  Local businesses would be horrified.

...

 

I'm not sure why so many seem to think that the judge is considering a length ban. I suspect it more likely that she thinking of a day or two ban. That would be sufficient to cause Carnival a substantial amount with maximum negative publicity at a minimal negative economic impact.

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Judge makes a statement knowing this would spread like wildfire. Looks like it is having the desired effect. A lot of negative press and knee-jerk reactions.

Don't doubt for a second that corporate lawyers are already working on a plan. Fully confident that some heads will roll and fines will be paid.

 

Don't see that Carnival will be banned from ports, unless they tell the judge to take a hike.

But, I suspect that this may reflect negatively in future cruise fares.

Edited by Keys2Heaven

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1 minute ago, broberts said:

 

I'm not sure why so many seem to think that the judge is considering a length ban. I suspect it more likely that she thinking of a day or two ban. That would be sufficient to cause Carnival a substantial amount with maximum negative publicity at a minimal negative economic impact.

Hopefully she will weigh any sanction after she and they have “their day in court”.....

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As a gambler, i would be willing to wager that no cruises will be cancelled. Yes, there will be fines and other punishments to people and the corp.

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1 minute ago, jimbo5544 said:

Hopefully she will weigh any sanction after she and they have “their day in court”.....

 

The corporation had its "day in court". It was placed on probation. This is a matter of violating probation. While the judge may allow the miscreant a chance to explain its actions and offer mitigating facts, guilt has already been determined. 

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While I do not disagree that they were there already, but maybe (just maybe) she wants to hear from them as to how it failed before the head lopping takes place.  I know that might not the blood thirst that some here want and apparently need, but she apparently wants them there and to HEAR why they failed (to determine the penalty or sanctions.  Did anyone say they had not failed?  So I guess you corrected yourself as their appearance would be their 2nd day in court, hope that feels better..... 

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The reason for this hearing is to establish why this happened after the fine and warning previous. I have a feeling that Carnival Corp and the execs have plenty of documentation showing fixes that they said they would implement etc. The real questions are did they implement them were they enough and what was the followup. It doesn't seem to be fleet wide and if not why did some ships, crew violate policies and procedures and did they do that on their own or with corporation approval. What the court will try and find out is who is responsible and too what degree as in who knew what and when and what was done to correct it. We are a long way from the Judge banning ships from ports as there are a lot of things she can do before that. Even if she did ban them she would probably have a stay of the order for Carnival to appeal. 

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I am sure that if the ban eventuates, it will likely be only affecting a few days at most which means fewer ships affected. This would be tied in with a further large fine and a probation with much stricter oversight.

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On 4/13/2019 at 10:02 AM, splintz said:

exactly!  how many employees in these ports would be out of work?  how much lost revenue would occur in each city that houses the US ports?  how much would each state and each city in which these ports  reside lose in tax income from the cruise line?  not to mention how much money would citizens of the US and the world lose because their cruise has been cancelled?  because of all these underlying factors this is exactly what it is a threat that will never happen.  you want to punish the corporation then punish the corporation with heavy fines, but don't punish people who have nothing to do with it.

 

I am not really sure I understand the argument banning Carnival from US ports would kill the US cruise industry. I am certain if Carnival were to leave Florida, another cruise line or two would pick up the slack. After all, there are certainly no shortage of ships being built these days. New players such as Virgin are coming onto the scene. Just my opinion. 

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14 minutes ago, rolloman said:

I am not really sure I understand the argument banning Carnival from US ports would kill the US cruise industry. I am certain if Carnival were to leave Florida, another cruise line or two would pick up the slack. After all, there are certainly no shortage of ships being built these days. New players such as Virgin are coming onto the scene. Just my opinion. 

It wouldn't kill the US cruise industry. There are too many other lines. But it would cause a hike in fares (that's just supply and demand). And it could well kill Carnival (as we know it anyway - the follow-on corporate entity would have a different name).

Edited by grinningimm

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7 hours ago, Keys2Heaven said:

...Don't see that Carnival will be banned from ports, unless they tell the judge to take a hike...

One could argue that they already told the judge to take a hike, by violating their probation. It sort of says "hey we paid the 40 million, and kept on keeping on". So the judge could say "ok, you just keep going. But not here in the US. And say goodbye to the associated revenue stream".

Edited by grinningimm

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So I may be confused please clarify, when the emails were being sent prior to the audits what was wrong with them having a heads up?  I worked for many skilled nursing facility and they were given a months time in advance to make sure the nurses and other staff had their crap together . Was this not the same thing? What am I missing? And when she said temporary ban, how long do you think she meant? 

Edited by jojonlolasmom

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21 hours ago, bdever said:

Yes indeed, the last thing I am worried about are my two booked cruises for June and December. Would it be an inconvenience if my cruises were cancelled? Yes. What was done to our planet and wildlife (those poor whales, dolphins and seals) Carnival was deliberate and inexcusable. I hope they get the book thrown at them. If they can’t dock in US ports good! I’ll survive! God please forgive us of these sins. 

I hope the judge demands a sea steward on every Carnival held ship for all sailings for the next 5 years & to pay all salaries PLUS full benefits of Sea Stewards. That’s just a wish I had this morning thinking about this. 

"Following this incident this Wednesday (09/08/17) the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is investigating what happened. This is not the first time such an incident has occurred. In May 2016, an endangered fin whale ended up on the bulbous bow of Holland America’s Zaandam. It is thought that while these cruise boat induced deaths are not common they are equally not uncommon."

 

If you really believe what you said you would not be cruising at all.

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15 minutes ago, jojonlolasmom said:

So I may be confused please clarify, when the emails were being sent prior to the audits what was wrong with them having a heads up?  I worked for many skilled nursing facility and they were given a months time in advance to make sure the nurses and other staff had their crap together . Was this not the same thing? What am I missing? And when she said temporary ban, how long do you think she meant? 

 

I look at it differently because the audits/inspections only came about because they were court ordered due to Carnival Corps. previous illegal activity and violations. They were fined and put on probation, told to get their act together, but they thumbed their noses at the court, so to speak. They knew they were still in violation over certain things, but did nothing until it was time for the audits. It wasn't so much prepping for routine inspections as it was covering up the fact that they weren't following through with the court's orders.

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1 hour ago, repo-cruiser said:

If you really believe what you said you would not be cruising at all.

Sometimes when people really believe in what they say they are inspired by others to dream bigger. How do you know I do not work in accounting and just might be inspired enough by these chain of events to work on becoming a forensic accountant or Sea Steward myself? Oh, right you don't, because you don't know me. Good luck to you in your journey. I plan on continuing mine for the greater good.

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Such a shame Wouldn't be the first time big business has flaunted the rules and regulations and taken short cuts. Some may say they may have been inspired to do so from following the leader in the field.

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On 4/15/2019 at 5:11 AM, Cafedumonde said:

And yet their stock is doing fine.  The market disagrees with the majority of people posting on this forum.  I am surprised how quick to slam CCL many cc posters are.  

From everything I have heard Carnival Corp deserves everything it is getting here and more. How can you sympathize with the company?

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If Carnival only acted like they say they do, they wouldn't be in trouble.  But being found guilty of violating the environment, then lying about it to the judge and falsifying records, they can't continue the charade of being a leader in environmental stewardship.  Hypocritical.

 

And the Judge has caught them in their charade.  This is not bloodlust, it is justice.

Edited by evandbob

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Question then to everyone....what would you like to see happen?

 

Carnival dissolve?

Banned from US ports?

Fined into oblivion?

 

or simply get their act together and enforce what they promote? I know misery loves company, but from what I've read, looks like many are ready to write the company off.

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5 minutes ago, Keys2Heaven said:

Question then to everyone....what would you like to see happen?

 

Carnival dissolve?

Banned from US ports?

Fined into oblivion?

 

or simply get their act together and enforce what they promote? I know misery loves company, but from what I've read, looks like many are ready to write the company off.

Fined again, execs responsible for lying and obstruction demoted to laundry or buffet duty or fired, and a real, verifiable environmental code adherence strictly enforced.  Corporate attitude has to change.

 

The Judge's threat to ban ports was to get the attention of Carnival's CEO's, stockholders and customers.  She did a good job.

Edited by evandbob

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3 minutes ago, Keys2Heaven said:

Question then to everyone....what would you like to see happen?

 

Carnival dissolve?

Banned from US ports?

Fined into oblivion?

 

or simply get their act together and enforce what they promote? I know misery loves company, but from what I've read, looks like many are ready to write the company off.

Half a billion in fines, all of the compliance department, and the senior corporate officers convicted of felony charges, some forced out, the ships that violated the probation banned for a year, and a new compliance plan with full time third party sea stewards regardless of where the ship is sailing, on every ship.

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What I can't understand is with all this press the knowledge that the visit with the Judge can really only go bad or worse and their stock prices have risen during this time. 

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