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Federal Judge considers sanctions affecting Carnival that could affect cruises


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http://www.seatrade-*****/news/news-headlines/carnival-environmental-incidents-continued-under-probation.html

 

Per linked story from Seatrade Crusie News, Carnival offered responses in this matter.  If the article is true and accurate, there are some interesting points noted by the court-ordered monitor:

 

> Carnival did not repeat any of the offenses that led to its original 2016 conviction and probation (involving Princess ships).

> It "substantially implemented the court-ordered ECP".

> The post-probation violations were self-reported to authorities, and/or identified in internal records.  [I assume "internal records" means properly cited in their own logs and communications, although part of the current infractions include falsification of records (it is reported at least in one case that the offending officer was fired)].

 

Carnival seems to accept and acknowledge their dirty deeds, which we all know is the first step towards recovery.  But, do the recent criminal incidents suggest they are just finding new ways of being environmentally offensive?

 

Article mentions other cruise lines not under the Carnival Corp & plc umbrella that have been cited and fined for environmental breaches. 

 

Not a ship operations "insider", but my read is that environmental violations are just common in the shipping business.  Carnival focused on and fixed (loosely) the specific issues that got it on probation, but has yet to resolve the underlying problem that appears to permeate the commercial and cruise industry.

 

If it is found the actions thus far are just "window dressing", I don't think Carnival is deserving of any mercy.  If, instead, it can be demonstrated that, in spite of the post-probation citations, real and substantial progress is being made, I hope the punishment is tempered accordingly.

 

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29 minutes ago, Top_of_the_Cube said:

http://www.seatrade-*****/news/news-headlines/carnival-environmental-incidents-continued-under-probation.html

 

Per linked story from Seatrade Crusie News, Carnival offered responses in this matter.  If the article is true and accurate, there are some interesting points noted by the court-ordered monitor:

 

> Carnival did not repeat any of the offenses that led to its original 2016 conviction and probation (involving Princess ships).

> It "substantially implemented the court-ordered ECP".

> The post-probation violations were self-reported to authorities, and/or identified in internal records.  [I assume "internal records" means properly cited in their own logs and communications, although part of the current infractions include falsification of records (it is reported at least in one case that the offending officer was fired)].

 

Carnival seems to accept and acknowledge their dirty deeds, which we all know is the first step towards recovery.  But, do the recent criminal incidents suggest they are just finding new ways of being environmentally offensive?

 

Article mentions other cruise lines not under the Carnival Corp & plc umbrella that have been cited and fined for environmental breaches. 

 

Not a ship operations "insider", but my read is that environmental violations are just common in the shipping business.  Carnival focused on and fixed (loosely) the specific issues that got it on probation, but has yet to resolve the underlying problem that appears to permeate the commercial and cruise industry.

 

If it is found the actions thus far are just "window dressing", I don't think Carnival is deserving of any mercy.  If, instead, it can be demonstrated that, in spite of the post-probation citations, real and substantial progress is being made, I hope the punishment is tempered accordingly.

 

While they possibly did not repeat (I haven't read the entire 800 line items) the offenses that triggered the original conviction and probation, the fact that the auditor found 800 separate items in a two year period is very disturbing.

 

It has taken them two years to "substantially" implement the Environmental Compliance Plan?  The companies I worked for, who didn't have a game plan, came up with a plan, and had it implemented completely within 12 months, including the building of custom monitoring equipment, that has now become standard equipment in a DOJ ECP.  If Carnival could not allocate the assets necessary to fully implement the plan outlined by the court, and agreed to by Carnival, then they should suffer the consequences.

 

The incidents were "self-reported" or "internally documented", great first step.  What procedures are in place in the ECP to ensure the same things don't happen again (I know I saw repeated discharges of ozone depleting refrigerants in the 800 line items), and were those procedures implemented, and did they work?  What steps beyond reporting an incident did the company make to mitigate an incident when it was reported?  This is the problem I see with Carnival's actions over the last two years, they don't seem to have a process in place to move the company towards better environmental behavior, so they just seem to say "hey, we had an accident, but we didn't mean to" and think that is good enough.

 

Environmental violations are not common in the maritime world, but they are also unfortunately not unknown.  But, over the last decade or so, some nations like the US are taking tougher stances on the violators and enforcing far stiffer penalties than before.  They are also looking at ways to encourage better behavior by changing corporate thinking, through use of ECP's and mandating this be included in the company's ISM (International Safety Management) document, which puts more onus on the flag state and class society to ensure compliance.

 

The mere fact that Carnival has had as many violations as they have while under audit, shows that their ECP is not working, and needs a total commitment from the CEO on down.  The fact that Carnival's CEO did not attend the hearing shows how little corporate thinks about this.

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If you belong to the VIFP program at Carnival, you won't get credit for going on a Princess cruise or any of the other cruise lines under CCL, but if one of those other lines get a huge fine, you certainly could end up paying more for your next Carnival Cruise.  Somehow this is wrong.

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12 hours ago, cruzincat50 said:

If you belong to the VIFP program at Carnival, you won't get credit for going on a Princess cruise or any of the other cruise lines under CCL, but if one of those other lines get a huge fine, you certainly could end up paying more for your next Carnival Cruise.  Somehow this is wrong.

The fine would be levied against Carnival Corporation, not any one cruise line. There were offenses across the entire fleet.

 

You may ultimately jot pay more for your cruise, because of the competitive market. MSC, Norwegian, and Royal Caribbean will make sure Carnival can’t make this up in the marketplace. The only exception may be is if the competition starts making investments in greater compliance, in which case cruise fares go up industry wide.

 

It would not surprise me to see a ship or two sold off in the event of a substantial fine. It may very well be the end of the line for some older Carnival Corporation ships, including Carnival Cruise Line. AIDA only has one ship built before 2000 (AIDAcara, 1996); Carnival Cruise Line has ten (including the Sunshine and Sunrise, originally the Destiny and Triumph); P&O UK will have none as of August (Oriana has already been sold); P&O Australia has three (Pacific Dawn, Aria, and Explorer); Cunard has none; Princess Cruises has four (Grand, Sea, Sun, Pacific); Holland America has five (one of which is an expedition ship); and Seabourn has none.

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On 4/28/2019 at 2:17 AM, MicCanberra said:

800 items in 2 years is more than 2 a day, very shoddy work.

 

800 in two years is 800 too much, but it isn't 2 / day.  it is 1.096 events per day - there are 730 days in a two-year period.

 

However, I do not like the way certain things are portrayed in some of the articles linked.  For example, one of the reports states:

 

"Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law."

 

OK, so how is "Carnival" to blame for that?  Is Carnival expected to stop that by either nailing everything down or simply not allowing passengers to have seat cushions?

 

One other interesting spin was that same article stating:

 

"its ships illegally discharged more than a half-million gallons of treated sewage, gray water, oil and food waste"

 

which is later clarified to:

 

"Discharged more than 500,000 gallons of treated sewage, almost all of which was dumped in Bahamian waters, and 12 gallons of oil, most of which was fuel from lifeboats."

 

OK, that is not a good thing, but the first statement makes it sound like a lot more than 12 gallons of oil was discharged.  To the point that another of the linked websites interpreted that as:

 

"These were illegal dumping of sewage, food waste, grey water, and more than a half-million gallons of oil"

 

The purposely misleading hyperbole is uncalled for.

 

I do hope Carnival gets their stuff together, but the more I read, the more this seems like headline-grabbing "spin" vs actual imminent danger-to-the-planet.

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8 hours ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

 

800 in two years is 800 too much, but it isn't 2 / day.  it is 1.096 events per day - there are 730 days in a two-year period.

 

However, I do not like the way certain things are portrayed in some of the articles linked.  For example, one of the reports states:

 

"Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law."

 

OK, so how is "Carnival" to blame for that?  Is Carnival expected to stop that by either nailing everything down or simply not allowing passengers to have seat cushions?

 

One other interesting spin was that same article stating:

 

"its ships illegally discharged more than a half-million gallons of treated sewage, gray water, oil and food waste"

 

which is later clarified to:

 

"Discharged more than 500,000 gallons of treated sewage, almost all of which was dumped in Bahamian waters, and 12 gallons of oil, most of which was fuel from lifeboats."

 

OK, that is not a good thing, but the first statement makes it sound like a lot more than 12 gallons of oil was discharged.  To the point that another of the linked websites interpreted that as:

 

"These were illegal dumping of sewage, food waste, grey water, and more than a half-million gallons of oil"

 

The purposely misleading hyperbole is uncalled for.

 

I do hope Carnival gets their stuff together, but the more I read, the more this seems like headline-grabbing "spin" vs actual imminent danger-to-the-planet.

 

Carnival Corp. doesn't like it any more than you do, but what y'all like and wish mean nothing, at this point. The court will sort it all out and set Carnival on the road to rehabilitation, again. Everybody will be the better for it in the end. Just be thankful that you're not on the hook for this. 

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Not letting Carnival dock would just hurt people that had nothing to do with it as would large fines.  You want to make sure this doesn't happen again then put the CEO and other excecs in Jail.  That a message to every company in the country

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1 hour ago, Kevin308 said:

Not letting Carnival dock would just hurt people that had nothing to do with it as would large fines.  You want to make sure this doesn't happen again then put the CEO and other excecs in Jail.  That a message to every company in the country

 

All three might happen.  We'll find out next month. 

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12 hours ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

However, I do not like the way certain things are portrayed in some of the articles linked.  For example, one of the reports states:

 

"Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law."

 

OK, so how is "Carnival" to blame for that?  Is Carnival expected to stop that by either nailing everything down or simply not allowing passengers to have seat cushions?

 

But are these even things that the court appointed auditors are considering violations, or are they just notations of the kinds of "trash" that's being thrown overboard? Ultimately, Carnival is responsible for anything and everything that gets thrown off their ships. The buck stops with them if the passengers who are throwing these things over aren't caught and held responsible. The question is, is the court counting these as actual probation violations? If not, it's a moot point.

 

12 hours ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

 

One other interesting spin was that same article stating:

 

"its ships illegally discharged more than a half-million gallons of treated sewage, gray water, oil and food waste"

 

If I were the one reading this article, I would not have interpreted it as meaning a half million gallons of oil. If the last quote you cited interpreted it as such, that author should brush up on their reading comprehension.

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1 hour ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

I totally agree, perhaps they should immediately fine and disembark any guest who is breaking any law with regards to the Environmental policy. How does that sound?

But the guests aren't the problem......

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2 hours ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

I totally agree, perhaps they should immediately fine and disembark any guest who is breaking any law with regards to the Environmental policy. How does that sound?

 

Don't know about the fine, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it is standard practice to disembark such miscreants at the next port.

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On 5/4/2019 at 6:40 PM, Palmetto Pilot said:

But the guests aren't the problem......

According to the hard hitting investigation of the Miami Herald, they certainly added to the problem, unless the ships crew is tossing over the following "Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law.

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 10:17 AM, ProgRockCruiser said:

 

"Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law."

 

OK, so how is "Carnival" to blame for that?  Is Carnival expected to stop that by either nailing everything down or simply not allowing passengers to have seat cushions?

 

 

Remember, there are criminal violations and civil penalties at play here.  In the world of civil penalties, Carnival most certainly can be held responsible for items being thrown off their ships.  It's like when a beer bottle gets thrown from a party bus and injures a person.  That person can go after the party bus company for compensatory damages, even though its the person who threw it who would be charged criminally.   

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43 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Remember, there are criminal violations and civil penalties at play here.  In the world of civil penalties, Carnival most certainly can be held responsible for items being thrown off their ships.  It's like when a beer bottle gets thrown from a party bus and injures a person.  That person can go after the party bus company for compensatory damages, even though its the person who threw it who would be charged criminally.   

That's  100% true however at this point, maybe the cruise lines should without fail, disembark any guest who is in violation I am not aware any do, or am I wrong? The cruise lines should not be labeled as the enabler of guests who do this. 

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2 minutes ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

That's  100% true however at this point, maybe the cruise lines should without fail, disembark any guest who is in violation I am not aware any do, or am I wrong? The cruise lines should not be labeled as the enabler of guests who do this. 

 

I don't recall details, but there is usually at least one announcement threatening consequences for throwing anything overboard.

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26 minutes ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

That's  100% true however at this point, maybe the cruise lines should without fail, disembark any guest who is in violation I am not aware any do, or am I wrong? The cruise lines should not be labeled as the enabler of guests who do this. 

 

From what I've seen, yes, these people do get disembarked if caught. 

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On 4/11/2019 at 8:13 AM, coaster said:

There will be notice given. The cruises won't depart if the ban goes into effect on or after the disembark date. Nobody will be trapped at sea.

I want to be trapped at sea.

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