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Federal Judge considers sanctions affecting Carnival that could affect cruises

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8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

They could be required to have "Sea Stewards" (third party auditors with maritime experience) ride the ships full time to witness compliance on a day to day basis, much as Alaska did a few years ago (not sure if the practice is still in effect there).

Last spring on our Celebrity Infinity cruise to Alaska, there was in fact a Sea Steward on board that we met. His job was to witness any and all things related to ensuring compliance. He said he would be on the ship for a week or so then on to the next ship and eventually rotate through all of them in the region. 

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26 minutes ago, gtouch said:

It also will have an economic impact on the tourist industries and their employees in those ports. The ports and cities themselves on loss fees and revenues.

 

People are probably going to go on vacation anyway so other areas might actually gain tourism dollars, add jobs etc.  

 

I know we spend very little in the port city on embarkation day or when we get off the ship.  

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The ban will never happen and here is way. Just the port of Miami gets roughly $100,000,000 per year from Carnival. That is just Fock fee. Does not include such things additional security, long shormen, money from Hotels and airfare. Add it all up the ban round come close to  a billion dollar a year hit to local economies. Nope the ban will never come to be.

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1 hour ago, gtouch said:

It also will have an economic impact on the tourist industries and their employees in those ports. The ports and cities themselves on loss fees and revenues.

 

That is so. And, tough as it is, I'm okay with that. Otherwise we put ourselves in a situation where no illegal corporate activity is penalized when doing so negatively impacts the economy. I am not comfortable with that.  There is little point in having laws if sanctions are not imposed when they are violated.

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Please don't  jinx this thread by making me sorry I said this.  But I am glad to see for the most part that you guys can discuss this with respect and lots of good discussion and related topics being expressed.

 

 

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This is a bummer if true. Its difficult to read an article and get facts though so critically thinking must be used.

The integrity of the company does seem to be in question here. They don't seem to be arbitrary rules that we try

and dodge for our hospital inspections (Believe me, some rules are stupid and not helpful). They appear to be important ocean saving/maintaining rule violations (TWICE). IMHO the CEO needs to go if it is as systemic as it sounds. (I never liked her anyway and she is relatively new). Someone needs to come blazing in with a "We are now committed to following the law and protecting the environment" major shake up for any credibility at this point. I almost cruise loyal to Carnival but this disappoints me.

 

Oh and P.S. I don't like her because one of the first changes it appeared that she made was to give the Cabin stewards 1/3 more cabins and change (suggest to passengers) service to once a day. Big eye roll on that CEO move. Carnival was not hurting for money when she got the job. 

Edited by missholly24

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56 minutes ago, CdrescherRBL152 said:

The ban will never happen and here is way. Just the port of Miami gets roughly $100,000,000 per year from Carnival. That is just Fock fee. Does not include such things additional security, long shormen, money from Hotels and airfare. Add it all up the ban round come close to  a billion dollar a year hit to local economies. Nope the ban will never come to be.

 

Exxxxxxactly. (Not that I necessarily agree with that decision) But still truth.

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18 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

That is so. And, tough as it is, I'm okay with that. Otherwise we put ourselves in a situation where no illegal corporate activity is penalized when doing so negatively impacts the economy. I am not comfortable with that.  There is little point in having laws if sanctions are not imposed when they are violated.

My thoughts exactly, but could not of phrased it as well as you have.

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A total ban would be the equivalent of a pretty hefty fine, maybe big enough to make a difference in future CCL operations in other areas of the world. The first fine (was it $40 million?), combined with probation, apparently wasn't enough of a message.

 

However, the workaround (which you can be sure the lawyers are already examining) would be to transfer the assets of CCL to another corporate entity or entities. "Your Honor, these ships no longer belong to CCL (or Holland, Princess, etc), so your order is not being violated".  It would cost money to transfer assets and/or rebrand, but hey, a fine costs money.

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11 minutes ago, grinningimm said:

However, the workaround (which you can be sure the lawyers are already examining) would be to transfer the assets of CCL to another corporate entity or entities. "Your Honor, these ships no longer belong to CCL (or Holland, Princess, etc), so your order is not being violated".  It would cost money to transfer assets and/or rebrand, but hey, a fine costs money.

It looks like the court case is against the parent company and all its subsidiaries. So unless they've got another company somewhere, there's no where to transfer those assets to.

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1 hour ago, Nightrythm said:

It looks like the court case is against the parent company and all its subsidiaries. So unless they've got another company somewhere, there's no where to transfer those assets to.

You'd just form a new holding company.

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2 hours ago, missholly24 said:

This is a bummer if true. Its difficult to read an article and get facts though so critically thinking must be used.

The integrity of the company does seem to be in question here. They don't seem to be arbitrary rules that we try

and dodge for our hospital inspections (Believe me, some rules are stupid and not helpful). They appear to be important ocean saving/maintaining rule violations (TWICE). IMHO the CEO needs to go if it is as systemic as it sounds. (I never liked her anyway and she is relatively new). Someone needs to come blazing in with a "We are now committed to following the law and protecting the environment" major shake up for any credibility at this point. I almost cruise loyal to Carnival but this disappoints me.

 

Oh and P.S. I don't like her because one of the first changes it appeared that she made was to give the Cabin stewards 1/3 more cabins and change (suggest to passengers) service to once a day. Big eye roll on that CEO move. Carnival was not hurting for money when she got the job. 

When was Carnival hurting for money?  So I am sensing that you are not in the Christine Duffy fan club?  Are you familiar with her predecessor?  This is not just CCL but the entire corporation, so while you do not like Christine Duffy (might want to check her past job before we issue the off with her head order) (great reason by the way.....my guess is the additional cabins one probably might have been made by someone under her pay grade but....) this situation appears (I for one will let the courts decide) systemic across many of the Carnival brands and many different areas.....has lack of control written all over it.

 

Look, I cruise Carnival a lot as well and may be even more disappointed than you, but clearly they have issues in assuring that these edicts and controls are successfully deployed and even more importantly not falsified and covered up.  I will be watching closely like you on the sanctions and penalties and what happens, and some people will probably will lose their jobs or worse (I take no solace in that) and while we never know, seeing the CEO go (regardless of the extra cabin liking thing or not) might not happen.... just trying to set the table for you.  Not a great day for Carnival corporate...

Edited by jimbo5544

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39 minutes ago, grinningimm said:

You'd just form a new holding company.

not quite sure it is all that easy....

 

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Ease is relative. Spinning off subsidiaries from one holding company to another is very common, and starting new companies is just a matter of paperwork and fees. The lawyers are already on staff, so away you go. It's an alternative to giving up the huge US market.

 

What else would CCL do if actually prevented from entering the US?  Move every HAL, Princess, Carnival, etc ship to the med and Asia?

 

 

Edited by grinningimm

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23 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

When was Carnival hurting for money?  So I am sensing that you are not in the Christine Duffy fan club?  Are you familiar with her predecessor?  This is not just CCL but the entire corporation, so while you do not like Christine Duffy (might want to check her past job before we issue the off with her head order) (great reason by the way.....my guess is the additional cabins one probably might have been made by someone under her pay grade but....) this situation appears (I for one will let the courts decide) systemic across many of the Carnival brands and many different areas.....has lack of control written all over it.

 

Look, I cruise Carnival a lot as well and may be even more disappointed than you, but clearly they have issues in assuring that these edicts and controls are successfully deployed and even more importantly not falsified and covered up.  I will be watching closely like you on the sanctions and penalties and what happens, and some people will probably will lose their jobs or worse (I take no solace in that) and while we never know, seeing the CEO go (regardless of the extra cabin liking thing or not) might not happen.... just trying to set the table for you.  Not a great day for Carnival corporate...

Hi yes I am in agreement with you.  What I meant by the hurting for money part was there was no reason for the company to increase the amount of cabins for our wonderful room stewards. At my hospital level, the CEO most definitely has a direct say on how many patients the nurses have here re: FTE's and the entire patient care structure. We are a mid level hospital with around 500 beds. I realize Hospitals are different than Cruise ships but the idea is similar. I don't hate her, I just fiercely defend the direct care workers for the company (as I do nurses)...the people actually doing the leg work. I will stick by Carnival as long as I can...I will also be watching very closely. P.S. I love all of your reviews and have learned so much from them, thank you!!

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2 minutes ago, missholly24 said:

Hi yes I am in agreement with you.  What I meant by the hurting for money part was there was no reason for the company to increase the amount of cabins for our wonderful room stewards. At my hospital level, the CEO most definitely has a direct say on how many patients the nurses have here re: FTE's and the entire patient care structure. We are a mid level hospital with around 500 beds. I realize Hospitals are different than Cruise ships but the idea is similar. I don't hate her, I just fiercely defend the direct care workers for the company (as I do nurses)...the people actually doing the leg work. I will stick by Carnival as long as I can...I will also be watching very closely. P.S. I love all of your reviews and have learned so much from them, thank you!!

Thank you....  I was actually very pleased when Carnival brought Christine Duffy in from her past job at CLIA and she is a def improvement over the guy she replaced (both pale in comparison the Bob Dickinson, but he is a legend).  I still have hopes (and I am a big Carnival advocate - I can hear the smirks coming as others read this) that this kick in the gut will be what this company needs to put this to bed forever.  We will see.....

 

Happy cruising!!

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2 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Thank you....  I was actually very pleased when Carnival brought Christine Duffy in from her past job at CLIA and she is a def improvement over the guy she replaced (both pale in comparison the Bob Dickinson, but he is a legend).  I still have hopes (and I am a big Carnival advocate - I can hear the smirks coming as others read this) that this kick in the gut will be what this company needs to put this to bed forever.  We will see.....

 

Happy cruising!!

Ok well I trust your research I will give her a chance! haha

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If a company cannot be held accountable when breaking the laws and regulations, then who can. I think they will be fined heavily and cruising practices improved.

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26 minutes ago, MicCanberra said:

If a company cannot be held accountable when breaking the laws and regulations, then who can. I think they will be fined heavily and cruising practices improved.

I do not see anybody disagreeing about that....

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The irony about this thread is the Behind the Scenes Tour. They spend so much time on telling you how ecological they are. They talk about black water, recycling, trash disposal and other clean air features.  

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42 minutes ago, coevan said:

The irony about this thread is the Behind the Scenes Tour.

They spend so much time on telling you how ecological they are.

They talk about black water, recycling, trash disposal and other clean air features.  

.

And I'm sure they try their best, fleet-wide.

 

But fleet-wide consists of thousands of employees (individuals, like me n you)

and all it takes is one or two malcontents (on separate ships at difrnt times)

having a bad day/night -and at 0250 hrs. takes the easy way out

and dumps the un-mentionable.

He's probably done it once or twice in the past, and even got away with it!

 

CCL and/or Carnival Corporation big shot CEO/CFO/COO's have little actual control

over the entire giant organism(CCL/Corp.)

consisting of thousands of individual cells, whether functioning or malfunctioning.

 

We live in an imperfect world.

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14 minutes ago, Aplmac said:

.

And I'm sure they try their best, fleet-wide.

 

But fleet-wide consists of thousands of employees (individuals, like me n you)

and all it takes is one or two malcontents (on separate ships at difrnt times)

having a bad day/night -and at 0250 hrs. takes the easy way out

and dumps the un-mentionable.

He's probably done it once or twice in the past, and even got away with it!

 

CCL and/or Carnival Corporation big shot CEO/CFO/COO's have little actual control

over the entire giant organism(CCL/Corp.)

consisting of thousands of individual cells, whether functioning or malfunctioning.

 

We live in an imperfect world.

Well said post. You phrased it well, but the real egregious part is the falsifying of the records and non reporting. It makes a bad situation really bad, regardless of whatever level it was done.   It can be a slippery slope, and I am sure there is a senior officer at the cruise line level and corporate level that will pay the ultimate price here.   It should have never have gotten to this point and that it is, is very significant.  

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35 minutes ago, Aplmac said:

.

And I'm sure they try their best, fleet-wide.

 

But fleet-wide consists of thousands of employees (individuals, like me n you)

and all it takes is one or two malcontents (on separate ships at difrnt times)

having a bad day/night -and at 0250 hrs. takes the easy way out

and dumps the un-mentionable.

He's probably done it once or twice in the past, and even got away with it!

 

CCL and/or Carnival Corporation big shot CEO/CFO/COO's have little actual control

over the entire giant organism(CCL/Corp.)

consisting of thousands of individual cells, whether functioning or malfunctioning.

 

We live in an imperfect world.

So Carnival Corporation has grown so large that it is just too massive to be effectively managed?  Ok that probation terms have been violated due to just the enormous size of Carnival Corp? Hmmm... You think the federal justice system should just give them a break due to the magnitude of their operations?  Some things just slip through the cracks?

Edited by coaster

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11 minutes ago, coaster said:

So Carnival Corporation has grown so large that it is too massive to be effectively managed? ===> Sure hope not!

Ok that probation terms have been violated due to just the enormous size of Carnival Corp? ===> No no no no NO!

Hmmm... You think the federal justice system should just give them a break due to the magnitude of their operations?  ===> Lock them all up!!

Some things just slip through the cracks? ===> Oh NEVER!

.

You live in your 100%-perfect world and I am happy for you!

Most of the rest of us live in an imperfect world

where 95-98%-perfection is realistically attainable.

 

We all strive for idealism, but daily/nightly Reality screws it up every time.

Nevertheless, we keep striving for idealism. Press on.

 Lock them up!

 

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10 minutes ago, Aplmac said:

.

You live in your 100%-perfect world and I am happy for you!

Most of the rest of us live in an imperfect world

where 95-98%-perfection is realistically attainable.

 

We all strive for idealism, but daily/nightly Reality screws it up every time.

Nevertheless, we keep striving for idealism. Press on.

 Lock them up!

 

Ok, sounds good unless your company is on probation and needs to keep a ‘clean nose’ to avoid extra fines and the possibility of it being shutdown.

Edited by coaster

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