Federal Judge considers sanctions affecting Carnival that could affect cruises

[Micahs Grandad]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Yes, I realize that even if all the 100 share holders on cruise critic voted to "throw the rascals out", it would not be nearly enough votes to accomplish this. Nevertheless, I would now feel better about myself and my vote.

All we can do is vote for or against the board of directors. When it comes up again probably will against the whole slate. They didnt do their jobs from what is coming out.

[Aquahound]

21 hours ago, xDisconnections said:

And other cruise lines, such as Princess, advertise in their Princess Patter on the first day stating how much Carnival Corporation is committed to the environment and urges guests to visit www.carnivalcompliance.com.

 

That's awfully ironic since it was Princess who caused this mess to begin with.  

[xDisconnections]

2 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

That's awfully ironic since it was Princess who caused this mess to begin with.  

I think of that every time I see it!

[chengkp75]

14 hours ago, coevan said:

thank you chengkp, are they as aggressive as their U.S. neighbors?

What I am saying is that if a violation happened in Bahamas waters, but was discovered by the USCG when the ship is in US waters, the US can prosecute it.

[silversneakers]

Remember, there is always two sides to the story!

 

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, Micah's Grandad said:

All we can do is vote for or against the board of directors. When it comes up again probably will against the whole slate. They didnt do their jobs from what is coming out.

That's basically what I was saying when I posted that I was sorry that I had already sent in my proxy vote. I was not then aware of the good reason to vote no on all of them from the top down.

[evandbob]

1 hour ago, silversneakers said:

Remember, there is always two sides to the story!

 

Carnival admitted their guilt in 2017 and was fined $40 Mil and placed on probation for environmental crimes.

 

They are back in court for continuing environmental violations, falsifying records, lying to the judge and violating their probation.

 

What is the other side of the story?

Edited April 14, 2019 by evandbob

[hotsauce126]

30 minutes ago, evandbob said:

Carnival admitted their guilt in 2017 and was fined $40 Mil and placed on probation for environmental crimes.

 

They are back in court for continuing environmental violations, falsifying records, lying to the judge and violating their probation.

 

What is the other side of the story?

 

 "we didn't think we'd get caught" 

[Micahs Grandad]

2 hours ago, silversneakers said:

Remember, there is always two sides to the story!

 

Find it hard to believe the other side would give justification to what they have been doing.

[jimbo5544]

37 minutes ago, evandbob said:

Carnival admitted their guilt in 2017 and was fined $40 Mil and placed on probation for environmental crimes.

 

They are back in court for continuing environmental violations, falsifying records, lying to the judge and violating their probation.

 

What is the other side of the story?

I did not see where they lied to the judge, can you point that out?

[jimbo5544]

5 minutes ago, Micah's Grandad said:

Find it hard to believe the other side would give justification to what they have been doing.

rather than two sides, maybe they meant do not convict without the hearing.  

[Micahs Grandad]

1 minute ago, jimbo5544 said:

rather than two sides, maybe they meant do not convict without the hearing.  

They deserve a fair trial but cannot imagine how they can justify their actions. Will be interesting to see how they spin it.

[jimbo5544]

3 minutes ago, Micah's Grandad said:

They deserve a fair trial but cannot imagine how they can justify their actions. Will be interesting to see how they spin it.

Truth under oath always seems best to me

[jimbo5544]

Without having any knowledge I bet I can come pretty close to what will be said. 

[Steve551]

On 4/12/2019 at 5:38 PM, Aplmac said:

.

You live in your 100%-perfect world and I am happy for you!

Most of the rest of us live in an imperfect world

where 95-98%-perfection is realistically attainable.

 

We all strive for idealism, but daily/nightly Reality screws it up every time.

Nevertheless, we keep striving for idealism. Press on.

 Lock them up!

 

Idealism: the practice of forming or pursuing ideals, especially unrealistically.

 

We live in an "imperfect world".

 

Very true, so why bother?

 

By your logic only in a perfect world Carnival (and other cruise lines) be required to comply with environmental laws more than 95%-98% of the time.  It is "Idealistic" of us to expect Carnival to comply 100%.

 

Do you apply that logic to everything?

[jimbo5544]

6 minutes ago, Steve551 said:

Idealism: the practice of forming or pursuing ideals, especially unrealistically.

 

We live in an "imperfect world".

 

Very true, so why bother?

 

By your logic only in a perfect world Carnival (and other cruise lines) be required to comply with environmental laws more than 95%-98% of the time.  It is "Idealistic" of us to expect Carnival to comply 100%.

 

Do you apply that logic to everything?

Not sure if it is idealistic, but maybe not realistic.  Carnival Corp is a large corporation with over a 100 ships managed by nine different entities. The opportunity to have an employee make a mistake is significant.  They will pay a hefty price for the act and for poor reporting and falsifying records and probably be under significant scrutiny in the future (deservedly so).  That said the poster was 100% correct, we live in an imperfect world.  

[Aquahound]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

What I am saying is that if a violation happened in Bahamas waters, but was discovered by the USCG when the ship is in US waters, the US can prosecute it.

 

You are absolutely correct.  Although its a foreign flagged ship committing an illegal act in the waters of another nation or on the high seas, the minute they enter US waters with a falsified Oil Record Book or an inactive ODME, they are committing a US crime.  As the world saw with Princess, the fines are huge. 

 

This is what really frustrates me about Carnival Corp.  They were under probation and they knew all ships under their umbrella would receive increased scrutiny for the next 5 years.  Furthermore, as I'm sure you know, the incentives for whistleblowers are quite attractive.  Carnival Corp should be the most squared away cruise corp right now ref environmental issues.  For individual ships to continue this behavior and be so brazen about it, like dumping in Glacier Bay during this period of increased scrutiny, just blows my mind. 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

You are absolutely correct.  Although its a foreign flagged ship committing an illegal act in the waters of another nation or on the high seas, the minute they enter US waters with a falsified Oil Record Book or an inactive ODME, they are committing a US crime.  As the world saw with Princess, the fines are huge. 

 

This is what really frustrates me about Carnival Corp.  They were under probation and they knew all ships under their umbrella would receive increased scrutiny for the next 5 years.  Furthermore, as I'm sure you know, the incentives for whistleblowers are quite attractive.  Carnival Corp should be the most squared away cruise corp right now ref environmental issues.  For individual ships to continue this behavior and be so brazen about it, like dumping in Glacier Bay during this period of increased scrutiny, just blows my mind. 

Paul, I just can't get over the fact that they apparently didn't do any compliance training, as this should have been a significant part of the probation, and with this training and corporate audits at surprise intervals, rather than "how to beat the audit" notes, they would have inculcated an environmental compliance culture from the top down.

[sfaaa]

6 hours ago, evandbob said:

 

What is the other side of the story?

It is not what they know, it is what they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. This is where Carnival's high price legal team comes in.

[ontheweb]

31 minutes ago, sfaaa said:

It is not what they know, it is what they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. This is where Carnival's high price legal team comes in.

I'm not positive, but I don't believe innocent beyond a reasonable doubt applies as strictly to probation violations.

[bury me at sea]

42 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I'm not positive, but I don't believe innocent beyond a reasonable doubt applies as strictly to probation violations.

 

I believe you are correct.  A much lower bar would be applicable at this point.

 

This is levels and more levels beyond serious.  I can't help but believe the entire board of directors should be replaced, and a lot of heads in top management should roll.

 

Shareholder value of the moment cannot continue to be the top priority.  We are talking about survival.

[jimbo5544]

22 minutes ago, bury me at sea said:

 

I believe you are correct.  A much lower bar would be applicable at this point.

 

This is levels and more levels beyond serious.  I can't help but believe the entire board of directors should be replaced, and a lot of heads in top management should roll.

 

Shareholder value of the moment cannot continue to be the top priority.  We are talking about survival.

I half remember reading about their "plans" after the last time at the rodeo, they brought in a retired admiral (from the Navy or Coast Guard...not sure which) and the plan for each issue including an officer on each ship to ensure compliance (I think)...  If true, and I were one of these guys, I would be really worried....

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by jimbo5544

[jimbo5544]

35 minutes ago, MicCanberra said:

We have some cruise itineraries here that are best suited to winter but of course all the international cruise ships head to the Northern hemisphere.

It was an attempt at humor...

[bury me at sea]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

I half remember reading about their "plans" after the last time at the rodeo, they brought in a retired admiral (from the Navy or Coast Guard...not sure which) and the plan for each issue including an officer on each ship to ensure compliance (I think)...  If true, and I were one of these guys, I would be really worried....

 

 

As would I.  More than one person dropped this ball.  And it is a big ball.

[jimbo5544]

17 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

True, the company has not been accused of directly lying to the judge. But don't you think falsifying documents that court appointed auditors may have relied on is essentially lying to the judge?

Well they certainly under achieved on the promise.  I was not there (nor any of us here) when they committed to fixing the problem.  I do not know what was said, but saw some of the documentation they published (high level look).  All hypothetical, but they could have totally intended to comply (why would they have done anything else) and then thru failures to either disseminate to appropriate levels within the entire organization or not fully grasping the complexity failed to do what they needed to (obviously).  At any rate, under my hypothetical, they did not lie to the judge, just failed to accomplish the mandate.  In regards to falsifying records, someone sure screwed up. Not sure who or where or when, but probably someone afraid to lose their job (and probably will and maybe more). I do not know the significance of what would happen (penalty wise) id they  self reported (as they should have). Perhaps our local expert can chide in....

Edited April 14, 2019 by jimbo5544