Is Formal Night a thing of the past?

[c-boy]

3 hours ago, Globehoppers said:

Lets hope so - that its gone the way of the dodo bird.

 

"Dressing up" for dinner was required on ocean liners for First Class passengers only.  An anachronistic tradition that is not needed in "single class" cruise ships.  I served for 30years in uniform and "dressed up" with formal uniforms all too much.  Most of the time today "dressing up" is only to support one's ego and "impress" others.  One can eat just as well in a nice polo shirt and slacks as one can "dressed up."  Please limit "dressing up" to your closet at home.

Wow !

[UnorigionalName]

19 hours ago, yorky said:

Why do threads on dress code always have to end up with abuse being thrown around ? Live and let live and just do what makes you happy on your holiday.

 

I think it's because for some people, the way other people dress does effect the value of their cruise. 

 

I think that for some people, say, those people who were in the upper/upper-middle class growing up who traveled between europe and US before air-travel who have fond memories of ocean liners from their childhood.  Or for people who started cruising like 80's and 90's where for a price, for a while, you felt like you were the type of people who could afford first class on transatlantic or like you were on the "love boat."  So for these people, the glamorous image is part and parcel of the cruise experience.  So for those people, not having a strict formal night degrades their subjective perception of their experience.  Even in the common areas, some people like to play dress up and that historically what part of the cruise experience was and seeing people dressed in casual clothes destroys this image.

 

For the other maybe more metropolitan or progressive or younger group, like those who grew up watching titanic or so, the whole "first-class" experience is a negative, not a plus.  Looking down on others for the way they dress and by proxy how much money they have is seen as an ulgy form of elitism and is morally repugnant.  Part of the reason why all these tech CEOs dress in casual clothes and pretend to be everyday-joe type of people.  So for these people, looking down on not dressing up is kind of off putting and doesn't sit right.

 

so once people frame the issue in a normative perspective, they get emotionally attached and feel like they have something at stake.  Arguments against their side are kind of seen as attacking their beliefs.

[citronella]

I have to laugh at people who complain about the lack of formal nights or that others are not dressed “appropriately” and then go ashore in European capitals dressed in shorts, T-shirts and sneakers. Planning on entering churches and museums and restaurants.

 

So, while you may complain that some are too under dressed for your liking on the ship, give a thought to the locals in the cities you visit who think you are horrendously under dressed for an outing in the their city.

 

 

 

 

[Ma Bell]

5 hours ago, Globehoppers said:

Lets hope so - that its gone the way of the dodo bird.

 

"Dressing up" for dinner was required on ocean liners for First Class passengers only.  An anachronistic tradition that is not needed in "single class" cruise ships.  I served for 30years in uniform and "dressed up" with formal uniforms all too much.  Most of the time today "dressing up" is only to support one's ego and "impress" others.  One can eat just as well in a nice polo shirt and slacks as one can "dressed up."  Please limit "dressing up" to your closet at home.

Definitely an expert on egos.

[Ma Bell]

1 hour ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

I think it's because for some people, the way other people dress does effect the value of their cruise. 

 

I think that for some people, say, those people who were in the upper/upper-middle class growing up who traveled between europe and US before air-travel who have fond memories of ocean liners from their childhood.  Or for people who started cruising like 80's and 90's where for a price, for a while, you felt like you were the type of people who could afford first class on transatlantic or like you were on the "love boat."  So for these people, the glamorous image is part and parcel of the cruise experience.  So for those people, not having a strict formal night degrades their subjective perception of their experience.  Even in the common areas, some people like to play dress up and that historically what part of the cruise experience was and seeing people dressed in casual clothes destroys this image.

 

For the other maybe more metropolitan or progressive or younger group, like those who grew up watching titanic or so, the whole "first-class" experience is a negative, not a plus.  Looking down on others for the way they dress and by proxy how much money they have is seen as an ulgy form of elitism and is morally repugnant.  Part of the reason why all these tech CEOs dress in casual clothes and pretend to be everyday-joe type of people.  So for these people, looking down on not dressing up is kind of off putting and doesn't sit right.

 

so once people frame the issue in a normative perspective, they get emotionally attached and feel like they have something at stake.  Arguments against their side are kind of seen as attacking their beliefs.

Some people just normally dress up a bit more than others and they aren't "playing" at anything. Stereotypes exist on both ends of the spectrum. It's just common sense for most people that some occasions and venues call for a nicer appearance.  It's not rocket science.

[UnorigionalName]

1 hour ago, Ma Bell said:

Some people just normally dress up a bit more than others and they aren't "playing" at anything. Stereotypes exist on both ends of the spectrum. It's just common sense for most people that some occasions and venues call for a nicer appearance.  It's not rocket science.

 

I think this is another issue.  "common sense" is kind of regional and society specific.  Depending on your social circle and area, the "common sense" changes.  So when you bring together from different areas and different backgrounds, the mish-mash of differing common-senses doesn't jive well with some people.

[keithm]

5 hours ago, villauk said:

 

 

You could or couldn’t care less what people wear during the day?

 

 

I have seen everything in the MDR on Chic night, including sports wear. I don’t really care what people wear as a terrorist in a tux is still a terrorist, but it’s how you feel in what you are wearing. And let’s be honest, it doesn’t make the food taste any different. My idea of stylish may be completely different to the next person. I suppose it’s more about making an effort and some pax choose not to. We dress for dinner every night as that’s what we’ve always done and that’s what we are comfortable with (so do my boys). Some may not like what I wear, but in the great scheme of things does it really matter and do I really care....NO.

As Daffy Duck would say: "Aha! Pronoun trouble!"  Not sure which is correct. "Could care less or couldn't care less." That aside, as long as pax aren't wearing skivvies or bathing suits into the eating areas, I'm pretty fine with most any choice during the day. At night, I feel pax should at least make some effort to not look like "Onslow" from "Keeping up Appearance". In 2017 on the Eclipse during one of the Chic nights(14 day cruise)This guy got in the elevator to head to dinner. Overall it was a really well dressed crowd. Lots of tuxes & gowns(longer cruises seem to go this way)Well, the guy was wearing one of those Tux imprints on a t shirt in shorts with sneakers & yes, the ubiquitous ball cap. My spouse & I  just had nice sports coats & ties(not full suits) We were somewhat underdressed for the crowd in that elevator. The guy in the t shirt goes "Awww, how nice, you're all going to Prom!" I responded: "Awww, how nice, you're going to a trailer trash jamboree!" Talk about an elevator in hysterics!

[Cruise a holic]

5 minutes ago, keithm said:

As Daffy Duck would say: "Aha! Pronoun trouble!"  Not sure which is correct. "Could care less or couldn't care less." That aside, as long as pax aren't wearing skivvies or bathing suits into the eating areas, I'm pretty fine with most any choice during the day. At night, I feel pax should at least make some effort to not look like "Onslow" from "Keeping up Appearance". In 2017 on the Eclipse during one of the Chic nights(14 day cruise)This guy got in the elevator to head to dinner. Overall it was a really well dressed crowd. Lots of tuxes & gowns(longer cruises seem to go this way)Well, the guy was wearing one of those Tux imprints on a t shirt in shorts with sneakers & yes, the ubiquitous ball cap. My spouse & I  just had nice sports coats & ties(not full suits) We were somewhat underdressed for the crowd in that elevator. The guy in the t shirt goes "Awww, how nice, you're all going to Prom!" I responded: "Awww, how nice, you're going to a trailer trash jamboree!" Talk about an elevator in hysterics!

We may have been on the same cruise!  Or we were on a cruise with a man dressed with the tux tee shirt!  I guess he didn't own dress clothes so he figured that the tee shirt would be a good way to get attention. LOL

Edited April 22, 2019 by Cruise a holic

[villauk]

3 minutes ago, keithm said:

As Daffy Duck would say: "Aha! Pronoun trouble!"  Not sure which is correct. "Could care less or couldn't care less." That aside, as long as pax aren't wearing skivvies or bathing suits into the eating areas, I'm pretty fine with most any choice during the day.

 

 

For future reference, it’s ‘you couldn’t care less’  - now I know what you mean 😉.

 

7 minutes ago, keithm said:

My spouse & I  just had nice sports coats & ties(not full suits) We were somewhat underdressed for the crowd in that elevator. 

 

I really do hope you weren’t that underdressed and that you were wearing some form of trousers 🙈 😮 🤣?

[keithm]

7 hours ago, yorky said:

End of the day my take on it is if you allow others to effect your night then only you suffer and not them. You’ve paid a lot of money to be there, people won’t change because you want them to so just go with the mindset of “ no one is going to ruin my night” and ignore them. Why stress about something you can’t change ?

You're right, I HAVE paid a lot of money to enjoy my cruise. I just don't care to dine in a fine dining establishment, when some pax are really trying to see how sloppy they have to be dressed to be denied entry. As I've said many times.. Is it TOO hard to wear a nice pair of pants & a nice button down collared shirt?(short or long sleeve, fine) This is smart casual. Flip flops, crappy looking shorts(or any shorts) & t shirts are not in any way shape or form, considered smart casual for dinner in the main dining rooms. The buffet? Fine, knock yourself out!

[Chicago Boy]

We used to bring the tuxes, suits, sports jacks etc. but as we have gotten older we want to deal with less luggage so we do Country Club casual.  It works just fine for us and it is oh so much easier.  

 

[keithm]

4 minutes ago, villauk said:

 

For future reference, it’s ‘you couldn’t care less’  - now I know what you mean 😉.

 

 

I really do hope you weren’t that underdressed and that you were wearing some form of trousers 🙈 😮 🤣?

"Well, Betty Grable should have such legs!" Yes, I do wear nice trousers. I wear nice pressed khakis during smart casual nights. Perhaps we'll wear sport coats on those nights as well. We really were not underdressed. We had nice trousers/dress shirts/nice shoes sport coats & ties on Chic nights. As I said, we do leave Tuxes for Cunard. Still in that elevator as Lonesome George Gobel used to say.."Ever walk into a room full of Tuxedos & you're a pair of Brown shoes?" Kind of felt that way in the elevator.

[keithm]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

We used to bring the tuxes, suits, sports jacks etc. but as we have gotten older we want to deal with less luggage so we do Country Club casual.  It works just fine for us and it is oh so much easier.  

 

Yes it can really look smart. This is what we like about Oceania. No ties/suits or tuxes required. No jeans at night either. We wore sport coats in the specialty rest. but overall, everyone really looked nice without being over the top.

[UnorigionalName]

10 minutes ago, keithm said:

You're right, I HAVE paid a lot of money to enjoy my cruise. I just don't care to dine in a fine dining establishment, when some pax are really trying to see how sloppy they have to be dressed to be denied entry. As I've said many times.. Is it TOO hard to wear a nice pair of pants & a nice button down collared shirt?(short or long sleeve, fine) This is smart casual. Flip flops, crappy looking shorts(or any shorts) & t shirts are not in any way shape or form, considered smart casual for dinner in the main dining rooms. The buffet? Fine, knock yourself out!

 

I think what people are saying are that you kind of have 2 options ahead of you.  The fact of the matter is that other people are not going to change, and if anything the zeitgeist if the world at whole is going towards a more casual look.  You can argue all you want on random internet forums but all the complaining in the world isn't going to put a dent in the massive social change barreling down.

 

option #1) Be bothered by other people's clothing: Become more and more bitter as clothing standards further deviate from what you desire.  spend your vacations tut-tutting everyone's clothing choice and perseverate on every perceived social affront.  Truth be told, i have a suspicion some people actually enjoy being offended.

 

option #2) Stop being bothered by other people's clothing: Do what you like, wear what you like; enjoy your time on earth with who you like doing what you like, and stop concerning yourself with things you have no control over.

 

There is also option #2.5) Find a cruise line with a vast majority of people who feel/dress  the way you do.

[keithm]

43 minutes ago, Cruise a holic said:

We may have been on the same cruise!  Or we were on a cruise with a man dressed with the tux tee shirt!  I guess he didn't own dress clothes so he figured that the tee shirt would be a good way to get attention. LOL

That cruise was Jan. 2017 on the Eclipse(14 days) That's the funny thing you don't need dress clothes, just decent & he certainly wasn't wearing them. He did get denied at the entrance to Moonlight Sonata.

[keithm]

18 minutes ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

I think what people are saying are that you kind of have 2 options ahead of you.  The fact of the matter is that other people are not going to change, and if anything the zeitgeist if the world at whole is going towards a more casual look.  You can argue all you want on random internet forums but all the complaining in the world isn't going to put a dent in the massive social change barreling down.

 

option #1) Be bothered by other people's clothing: Become more and more bitter as clothing standards further deviate from what you desire.  spend your vacations tut-tutting everyone's clothing choice and perseverate on every perceived social affront.  Truth be told, i have a suspicion some people actually enjoy being offended.

 

option #2) Stop being bothered by other people's clothing: Do what you like, wear what you like; enjoy your time on earth with who you like doing what you like, and stop concerning yourself with things you have no control over.

 

There is also option #2.5) Find a cruise line with a vast majority of people who feel/dress  the way you do.

I like 2.5. Oceania seems to fit the bill, but sometimes the itinerary or time of the cruise doesn't match your choice. This is the reason we're giving Celebrity one more shot. Overall  the dress style for the 14 day cruises is pretty good, but we have noticed the decline somewhat. It's the food quality decline that brought us to Oceania. We're in the food industry & really like fine dining.

[Luvcrusn]

2 hours ago, keithm said:

You're right, I HAVE paid a lot of money to enjoy my cruise. I just don't care to dine in a fine dining establishment, when some pax are really trying to see how sloppy they have to be dressed to be denied entry. As I've said many times.. Is it TOO hard to wear a nice pair of pants & a nice button down collared shirt?(short or long sleeve, fine) This is smart casual. Flip flops, crappy looking shorts(or any shorts) & t shirts are not in any way shape or form, considered smart casual for dinner in the main dining rooms. The buffet? Fine, knock yourself out!

Keith, you continually post about people in flip flops, shorts, etc. in the MDRs of X, yet in all our cruises (many, many) we've seen one man walk into the MDR in shorts after having a short discussion with the maître d. We were standing nearby and overheard the conversation. His luggage was lost. I honestly don't know what you're carrying on about, and also don't understand that you let it bother you so much. Relax and enjoy your cruise. Focus on your good fortune to be able to sail with a companion and friends you enjoy in a vacation setting that most in this world would gladly trade places with you in a heartbeat instead of focusing and fretting over perceived sartorial gaffes of others. Life's too short for fretting over the behavior of others. Enjoy what you have and what you can control.

[Ma Bell]

6 hours ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

I think it's because for some people, the way other people dress does effect the value of their cruise. 

 

I think that for some people, say, those people who were in the upper/upper-middle class growing up who traveled between europe and US before air-travel who have fond memories of ocean liners from their childhood.  Or for people who started cruising like 80's and 90's where for a price, for a while, you felt like you were the type of people who could afford first class on transatlantic or like you were on the "love boat."  So for these people, the glamorous image is part and parcel of the cruise experience.  So for those people, not having a strict formal night degrades their subjective perception of their experience.  Even in the common areas, some people like to play dress up and that historically what part of the cruise experience was and seeing people dressed in casual clothes destroys this image.

 

For the other maybe more metropolitan or progressive or younger group, like those who grew up watching titanic or so, the whole "first-class" experience is a negative, not a plus.  Looking down on others for the way they dress and by proxy how much money they have is seen as an ulgy form of elitism and is morally repugnant.  Part of the reason why all these tech CEOs dress in casual clothes and pretend to be everyday-joe type of people.  So for these people, looking down on not dressing up is kind of off putting and doesn't sit right.

 

so once people frame the issue in a normative perspective, they get emotionally attached and feel like they have something at stake.  Arguments against their side are kind of seen as attacking their beliefs.

Some people also seem to think they know what everyone is thinking and feeling and consider themselves the arbiters of the social conventions of the present when the truth is they are just like everyone else,  just one more opinion.

[yorky]

8 hours ago, keithm said:

You're right, I HAVE paid a lot of money to enjoy my cruise. I just don't care to dine in a fine dining establishment, when some pax are really trying to see how sloppy they have to be dressed to be denied entry. As I've said many times.. Is it TOO hard to wear a nice pair of pants & a nice button down collared shirt?(short or long sleeve, fine) This is smart casual. Flip flops, crappy looking shorts(or any shorts) & t shirts are not in any way shape or form, considered smart casual for dinner in the main dining rooms. The buffet? Fine, knock yourself out!

But again, you can’t turn back time, this is the world we live in now. Given that do you stop dining in good restaurants ? We don’t because that’s what we enjoy and yes we still enjoy dressing up.

[excitedofharpenden]

9 hours ago, keithm said:

You're right, I HAVE paid a lot of money to enjoy my cruise. I just don't care to dine in a fine dining establishment, when some pax are really trying to see how sloppy they have to be dressed to be denied entry. As I've said many times.. Is it TOO hard to wear a nice pair of pants & a nice button down collared shirt?(short or long sleeve, fine) This is smart casual. Flip flops, crappy looking shorts(or any shorts) & t shirts are not in any way shape or form, considered smart casual for dinner in the main dining rooms. The buffet? Fine, knock yourself out!

Flip flops, shorts etc that you mention have no place in the MDR in the evening, but describing it as fine dining establishment?  I think you are kidding yourself if you believe that.

 

Phil

[DYKWIA]

10 hours ago, keithm said:

.... In 2017 on the Eclipse during one of the Chic nights(14 day cruise)This guy got in the elevator to head to dinner. Overall it was a really well dressed crowd. Lots of tuxes & gowns(longer cruises seem to go this way)Well, the guy was wearing one of those Tux imprints on a t shirt in shorts with sneakers & yes, the ubiquitous ball cap. My spouse & I  just had nice sports coats & ties(not full suits) We were somewhat underdressed for the crowd in that elevator. The guy in the t shirt goes "Awww, how nice, you're all going to Prom!" I responded: "Awww, how nice, you're going to a trailer trash jamboree!" Talk about an elevator in hysterics!

 

When I last looked the dress code doesn't apply to the ship's elevators.   

 

The end of Formal night on Celebrity feels to me like the end of The Truman Show.  Many people enjoyed it, but when it ended a few people had a hissy fit but the majority of people shrugged their shoulders and moved on.

 

You always have a lot to say on this subject and clearly see yourself as the arbiter of taste and style, a nice sports coats & ties - hmmm sounds a bit 1980s Engineering Manager at the local factory / used car salesman to me.  Never heard you tell this elevator tale before and always surprised how many people you witness being turned away from the MDR.  Do you ask for a table by the door on Formal / Evening Chic night.  You clearly missed your vocation in life and should have been on the door at Studio 54

Edited April 23, 2019 by DYKWIA

[cgolf1]

10 hours ago, Ma Bell said:

Some people also seem to think they know what everyone is thinking and feeling and consider themselves the arbiters of the social conventions of the present when the truth is they are just like everyone else,  just one more opinion.

 

For me the thing I don’t understand, is the people that let things like how people dress diminish their experience. I refuse to let others dictate whether I have a good time or not on a cruise. We have had horrible table mates, my wife wore shorts and a T-shirt to dinner one night on RCCL, still had a great time. 

 

I guess since I grew grew up in an environment where I interacted with business owners, nfl players, to everyday folks and felons that did stretches in jail, I learned not to judge a book by its cover. There are some great folks out there if you take the time to get to know them. 

[Ma Bell]

3 hours ago, cgolf1 said:

 

For me the thing I don’t understand, is the people that let things like how people dress diminish their experience. I refuse to let others dictate whether I have a good time or not on a cruise. We have had horrible table mates, my wife wore shorts and a T-shirt to dinner one night on RCCL, still had a great time. 

 

I guess since I grew grew up in an environment where I interacted with business owners, nfl players, to everyday folks and felons that did stretches in jail, I learned not to judge a book by its cover. There are some great folks out there if you take the time to get to know them. 

Why are you quoting me?

[Tltorrez]

Not interested in getting into a flame war but I did want to provide a data point. We did Celebrity Great Barrier Reef in October. It was our first family cruise and we decided to go formal. Girls had gowns and guys rented tuxes. We certainly weren’t the only ones dressed up. But luggage space was tight traveling to Australia from the States so renting the tux and shoes made a huge difference. We plan to do it again for Amalfi Coast-Greece this year.

 

Terri

[villauk]

9 minutes ago, Tltorrez said:

Not interested in getting into a flame war but I did want to provide a data point. We did Celebrity Great Barrier Reef in October. It was our first family cruise and we decided to go formal. Girls had gowns and guys rented tuxes. We certainly weren’t the only ones dressed up. But luggage space was tight traveling to Australia from the States so renting the tux and shoes made a huge difference. We plan to do it again for Amalfi Coast-Greece this year.

 

Terri

 

 

In general, European cruises tend to be more formal 😉.